Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-15-2010, 08:42   #441
Brucev
Senior Member
 
Brucev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,189
The video of the deer hit with an arrow is certainly not very clear. But from what I see, the buck appears to be reacting to the hit in the same way I've seen bucks and does react when shot with a slow heavy bullet in the heart/lung area. I have watched them fall down and try but fail to rise up. Perhaps in this case the arrow pierced the heart or cut one or more arteries which would immediately lead to a dramatic loss of blood pressure. Perhaps the arrow pierced one or both lungs. Either or both together would account for the confused reaction of the buck as well as its inability to stand up. JMHO. Sincerely. Brucev.
Brucev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 10:14   #442
NMGlocker
BOOM headshot
 
NMGlocker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 5,992
Just thing how AWESOMELY DEVASTATING "Extreme --Shock" .357sig ammo must be

The reason I'm not debatng you in a serious manner?
Because the entire premise of your argument is so vapid and devoid of substance as to be ridiculous.
Same reason I don't argue with 9/11 "Truthers", Scientologists or Obama voters.
Mocking pseudo-intellectualism was amusing for a few posts but now that the weather has cleared I'll be at the range, enjoy your little "debate".
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
NMGlocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 10:38   #443
N/Apower
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
Honestly though, the buck did as you said... he looked confused. That is why I wouldn't use that as a BPW backup. And I'm not trying to just argue out of it. Don't know what to say really, that's just a wierd example, man. It looks like he just freaked the hell out and was in instant shock. I mean, he went down and all but....

I'll look for some more vids like that later since I'm off today. Never seen, whatever that was, with a bow before.

My point exactly. If a bow can cause what I view as the same result you are describing a "TBI" to be, in this context (The deer was scared as it obviously tried to flee, yet when he got set down, he didn't even try to run again. He didn't try to crouch down or hide or something. He just sat there not knowing what to do. Confused is the only way to describe it as the deer ceased all efforts to flee, yet we know it didn't wish to remain in the area either. Kindof like a violent attacker stopping their attack.), then there are more factors at work here, and BPW's effectiveness cannot be measured at this present time. Ergo, it's all supposition.

Last edited by N/Apower; 02-15-2010 at 10:42..
N/Apower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 10:41   #444
N/Apower
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
There is no doubt that the energy efficiency of a broad-head is far ahead of a bullet but your experiment, if it can be called that because you were unable to control it, has several flaws.

The first flaw is the same one that invalidated the Marshall and Sanow data set. The responders are self selected and are more likely to respond if they have an interesting experience than if they have an uninteresting experience. In both cases this seems to be a well meaning attempt to gain information on a recalictrant topic.

You specify that "The deer must have been hit with only 1 shot, the shot must have hit either the heart or both lungs, or a lung and the heart, or both lungs. The shot must not have physically hit the spine." The Courtney experimants took car that the deer were not hit in the heart and so there is a major difference here. In the Courtney experiments, none of the deer collapsed because of a rapid drop of blood presure to the brain.

You say, "Now, there is no way someone is going to convince me that a 1-1/4" broadhead destroys less tissue than a handgun." and that is not actually relevant to the argument and neither is my quibble, but I will make it anyway. The broad head actually destroys very little tissue since it makes a fine, energy efficient, cut that produces a lot of functional damage but destroys very few cells. The whole idea of comparing bullets to broad-heads on the basis of energy expended is simply silly and Fackler demonstrates the same silliness. Bullets and broad-heads use totally different modes of injury.

But back to the main program! You say, correctly (sorry Craig!):

21% of the deer shot with broadheads dropped on the spot.
34% of the deer shot with handguns (as defined in my poll) dropped on the spot.

Here we have several problems. The first is that according to many reports from people who have been shot or stabbed, a large proportion, perhaps a majority, do not realise that they have been shot of stabbed. That is, they feel a minor thump but feel no pain at the time. After an interval of some 20 minutes gun shot wounds are, of course, extremely painful and can remain so for months but at the time, pain cannot be relied upon as an indicator of serious injury. If you have read the report from the Strasborg tests, which might or might not have actually happened, there is a telling report on the test of a .380ACP. The goat that was shot twitched a little as though surprised and then continued feeding within 2 seconds. After the 30 seconds alowed by the protocol, if I remember the time correctly, the goat was put down humanely but showed no sign of distress throughout. This is a small detail that, amongst others, makes me suspect that the tests were conducted.

As a consequence, many deer that are shot with a broad-head will not realise that they have been shot and will not be frightened and so will not run away. As such they are quite likely to stand where they are shot and then collapse. What your data set lacks, and cannot be expected to have, is the time to collapse. Incidentally, the Courtneys did not use distance run as a measure of time to collapse. They had a timer sensor close to the deer that started a timer with the sound of bullet impact and the time was then stopped manually from the hide at the point of collapse.

The video you reference is informative but not informative enough. The deer makes two distinctive movements before it collapses. I believe the first was a, "What just bumped into me? I thought I was alone here!" and the second was, "What was that odd noise or movement?" I say this because the first movement seemed related to itself and the second seemed to be focused on a fixed point at some distance. The rapid collapse then fits the result of a heart shot and abrupt drop of blood pressure before a flight response has been generated. This is supposition of course but what is clear relative to traumatic brain injury collapse is that the deer is clearly alert and reactive to stimuli until it collapses in complete contrast to a boxer who has just been punched to the head enough to daze him rather than knock him out.

The situation with a deer which has just been shot at with a pistol is that it will immediately run from the bang whether it has been hit or not. If it drops right there it is because its control system has been switched off and so the difference between 21% and 34% is actually not as simple as it seems.

The next problem is one of cartridge and bullet selection for hunting. Hunters who are hunting for meat are very reluctant to use bullets which damage too much meat and so their criteria are not the same as those slecting a round for self defence. They are much more likely to choose a round which will shoot through and through. They also have a tradition of using heavy for caliber hard cast bullets. Both result in very poor BPW levels. Your data set has no control of these factors and makes no attempt to control for them by sleection criteria. I am almost surprised that as many as 34% dropped on the spot from a single handgun bullet.

All in all, I fear we can draw very little in the way of sound conclusions from your poll. As the statisticians say, "Talk to us before you do your experiment. Not afterwards!" Probably more important than that is your acceptance of the wide spread belief that getting shot hurts enough to produce an immediate flight or fight reaction.

English
My "experiement" (poll) obviously has many holes. I would not try to pass it off as anything but "something fun" that was compiled. However, you cannot argue that there is a visible trend. That's all I was going for--is there a trend, or not? There was, according to my poll, which I agree with you is VERY subjective. Still, the error is one of accuracy and not consistancy. So while the frequency of results is subjective, the relative frequency is less so (but I agree, still subjective).
N/Apower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 10:41   #445
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
but now that the weather has cleared I'll be at the range, enjoy your little "debate".
We will, don't shoot your eye out, kid.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 10:47   #446
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
My point exactly. If a bow can cause what I view as the same result you are describing a "TBI" to be, in this context (The deer was scared as it obviously tried to flee, yet when he got set down, he didn't even try to run again. He didn't try to crouch down or hide or something. He just sat there not knowing what to do. Confused is the only way to describe it), then there are more factors at work here, and BPW's effectiveness cannot be measured at this present time. Ergo, it's all supposition.
Then our difference will be in the eye of the beholder because I don't view incapacitation to look the same as that (video). I view it to look more like "dazed" and confused, not confused and "assessing". More like your analogy of your fights, well aimed punches have more of a desired effect. The "blank" stare is where it's at, a loss of situational understanding. That deer was just confused.

I really just think that video is a bad example for anyone's case.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 10:50   #447
N/Apower
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
Then our difference will be in the eye of the beholder because I don't view incapacitation to look the same as that (video). I view it to look more like "dazed" and confused, not confused and "assessing". More like your analogy of your fights, well aimed punches have more of a desired effect. The "blank" stare is where it's at, a loss of situational understanding. That deer was just confused.

I really just think that video is a bad example for anyone's case.
Video quality is poor.

The deer "changed it's channel". That's what I looked at.
N/Apower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 10:53   #448
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
My "experiement" (poll) obviously has many holes. I would not try to pass it off as anything but "something fun" that was compiled. However, you cannot argue that there is a visible trend. That's all I was going for--is there a trend, or not? There was, according to my poll, which I agree with you is VERY subjective. Still, the error is one of accuracy and not consistancy. So while the frequency of results is subjective, the relative frequency is less so (but I agree, still subjective).
The problem I see with your poll is the subjective viewpoints of the "boholder", again. I've listened to too many redneck stories recounting outlandish events to believe just anyones oppinions in a poll. I've known too many people that have killed in combat that don't really know what they saw... to be able to except random deers hunters oppinions one click away on a poll.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 10:54   #449
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
The deer "changed it's channel". That's what I looked at.
It did, but not the right way in my oppinion, if you get what I mean?
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 13:13   #450
N/Apower
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
The problem I see with your poll is the subjective viewpoints of the "boholder", again. I've listened to too many redneck stories recounting outlandish events to believe just anyones oppinions in a poll. I've known too many people that have killed in combat that don't really know what they saw... to be able to except random deers hunters oppinions one click away on a poll.
I agree that the opinions are subject to question, but they are equally so, yet the results are not equal. Not only are they not equal,but they trend.
N/Apower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 17:28   #451
glock20c10mm
Senior Member
 
glock20c10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Out West
Posts: 5,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
I don't see how I lost you except that you don't understand how I calculated percentages without biasing for sample-size. I outlined that proceedure for you above so you can check the numbers (I can't help if 1 or 2 more people answered, so it might be 1-2% off or something by now). Take the raw data out of the poll, calculate to negate sample-size disparity between the groups, and there you go. Easy as pi.
Correct, I misinterpeted what you were showing for percentages. But still, as you admitted to an extent, the data leaves much to be desired. Nice shot in the dark though. Maybe you can refine your polling to get more telling results.
__________________
Free Men Don't Need To Ask Permission To Bear Arms

The Glock 29 is the most versatile handgun yet produced.
glock20c10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 17:42   #452
glock20c10mm
Senior Member
 
glock20c10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Out West
Posts: 5,244
The biggest knock against the video is that you simply can't see the path the arrow took through the deer. Without knowing that everything is nothing but a wild assed guess from any and all aspects. If it wasn't for the current 56K dial up I have for internet access I search the heck out of videos to try to find something better. I have seen hundreds of deer shot on video with broadheads and not a single one collapsed. They all ran off to some extent. And +90% of those shots were what most would consider right on the money so to speak. Maybe someone can find a better video of something similar where shot placement/path can be clearly seen?
__________________
Free Men Don't Need To Ask Permission To Bear Arms

The Glock 29 is the most versatile handgun yet produced.
glock20c10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 18:34   #453
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
The biggest knock against the video is that you simply can't see the path the arrow took through the deer. Without knowing that everything is nothing but a wild assed guess from any and all aspects. If it wasn't for the current 56K dial up I have for internet access I search the heck out of videos to try to find something better. I have seen hundreds of deer shot on video with broadheads and not a single one collapsed. They all ran off to some extent. And +90% of those shots were what most would consider right on the money so to speak. Maybe someone can find a better video of something similar where shot placement/path can be clearly seen?
That's my thing, that's absolutely the first time I have EVER seen that. They all haul ass.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 21:04   #454
PghJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,815
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMGlocker View Post
http://www.winchester.com/PRODUCTS/L...s/default.aspx
Winchester Ranger T
.357sig 125gr. @ 1350fps
9mm+p 127gr. @ 1250fps

You guys are saying that 100fps and 2 less grains of bullet weight make ALL the difference.
Seriously?
That's less than a 10% velocity increase.
With a straight face you are going to tell me that the .357sig is an "unbelievable manstopper" yet the 9mm+P is just adequate?
Seriously?
That must mean the standard pressure 124gr. Gold Dot @ 1150fps is downright anemic?
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

In your WW Ranger T comparison I think you mean the 9mm 127 gr +p+ (RA9TA Is a +p+). Which by the way leaves my G19 at just over 1200 fps. Then you are comparing it to the most anemic 357 sig. Within its pressure envelope the 357 sig can easily top 1425 fps, which is what I carry. So you are 175 fps above the 9mm operating above its design limit into +p+ designation. +p+ means it really is not defined as to cartridge pressure level. Looking at the higher velocity 124gr 9mm. Standard pressure is 1150fps, +p is 1200 fps and +p+ is 1250 fps (127gr). I really doubt those velocities can be reached out of a 4" barrel, but we will take it.

There is only 100 fps increase from 9mm to 9mm +p+. Does that make a big difference. Most would say yes. Going from the highest 9mm, 1250fps to a properly pressured 357 sig takes you 175 fps higher. Those of us who have shot 357 sigs for over 10 years do not like the trend to slow the bullet down. I am sure the 357 Ranger T is a good round, better than a 9mm. However, I generally carry a Corbon 125 JHP 357 sig which leaves my G32 at 1430fps. Although I do not have a ammo lab I have shot the WW127gr 9mm +p+ and the Cobon 125 gr 357sig through four layers of denim and gallon water jugs. There is a noticible and significant difference in energy transfer. The penetration is a little greater for the Ranger T, but the Corbon expands more.

This is not to criticize the Ranger T 127 +p+. My wife carries it in her G19. She just feels more comfortable with the milder round.

Last edited by PghJim; 02-15-2010 at 21:39..
PghJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 22:03   #455
NMGlocker
BOOM headshot
 
NMGlocker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 5,992
It's a handgun round, not Thors hammer.
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Last edited by NMGlocker; 02-15-2010 at 22:08..
NMGlocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 22:13   #456
NMGlocker
BOOM headshot
 
NMGlocker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 5,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
Standard pressure is 1150fps, +p is 1200 fps and +p+ is 1250 fps

Although I do not have a ammo lab
I did not know that pressure ratings were in "feet per second", I always though it was "pounds per square inch".

SAAMI pressure ratings for the 9mm are 35000 PSI for standard and 38500 for +P, there is no spec for +P+.

You don't own an ammo lab?
From your post, I could have sworn you were some kind of ballistics/physics expert.
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Last edited by NMGlocker; 02-15-2010 at 22:16..
NMGlocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 22:19   #457
N/Apower
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMGlocker View Post
I did not know that pressure ratings were in "feet per second", I always though it was "pounds per square inch".

SAAMI pressure ratings for the 9mm are 35000 PSI for standard and 38500 for +P, there is no spec for +P+.

You don't own an ammo lab?
From your post, I could have sworn you were some kind of ballistics/physics expert.
Traditionally, pressure measurements, with regard to internal ballistics/small arms, are in CUP or Copper Units of Pressure.

That being said, while pressure affects velocity, it is not always directly proportionate.
N/Apower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 22:21   #458
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMGlocker View Post
It's a handgun round, not Thors hammer.
Ahh, another one with poor understanding. Why bother, bro.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2010, 14:59   #459
NMGlocker
BOOM headshot
 
NMGlocker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 5,992
Oh, I understand it perfectly.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King.
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
NMGlocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2010, 17:43   #460
glock20c10mm
Senior Member
 
glock20c10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Out West
Posts: 5,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMGlocker View Post
It's a handgun round, not Thors hammer.
Are you aware of the additional visible wound damage done in human/animal flesh with a 125gr 357SIG bullet @ 1350fps - 1450fps compared to a 147gr 9mm load at 800fps - 900fps? It's shocking. No pun intended.
__________________
Free Men Don't Need To Ask Permission To Bear Arms

The Glock 29 is the most versatile handgun yet produced.
glock20c10mm is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:15.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 954
280 Members
674 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31