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Old 02-16-2010, 20:21   #476
N/Apower
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Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
What effect does a large temporary stretch cavity have as compared to a small temporary stretch if the bullets expanded and penetrated the same? 357 sigs and 10mm have been known to break the wooden frames that hold gelatin blocks. Most blocks now are free standing.

I do find that interesting, however, there is something that people who view this do not take into consideration often times. The thoracic cavity is not homogenous like gelatin blocks are. There exists many "partitions", as it were, and lots of empty/dead space. Energy is not distributed nearly as efficiently through the thoracic cavity as it is through a gelatin block.
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Old 02-16-2010, 20:26   #477
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According to ME's, I have heard it doesn't matter, visibly. Tissue is elastic, and 1400fps is going to look identical to 800fps, provided the slug is the same size and there is no fragmentation.
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Medical Examiners. Like the guy that everyone here gave so much flack when he told them what he saw in the real world when it didn't jive with what they THOUGHT happened. What was his SN "Lookin4U" ?
I've seen pics that say different, not to mention what the person who saw first hand had to say. Clearly a difference. Not to mention the testimony of others here on GT based on animals.

Don't know what the medical examiners think they claim to have seen, but I have yet to hear of a medical examiner who had any clue what handgun round a BG (or GG I guess) was shot with and only had a clue from recovered bullets where they could simply measure caliber size if they cared to. I say this based on what others have said who claim to be in a similar medical background profession as you.

Are these special MEs you refer to that are privy to more info than the average emergency room visits encountered?


Is there anyone out there that can verify what I'm saying about more visible wound damage in animals when using 357SIG over 9mm? Preferably when comparing 125gr 357SIG loads @ 1350fps - 1450fps to 147gr 9mm loads at 800fps - 900fps. I only put this in bold and larger type for the idea that maybe more will notice it than may have otherwise.
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Old 02-16-2010, 20:30   #478
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I've seen pics that say different, not to mention what the person who saw first hand had to say. Clearly a difference. Not to mention the testimony of others here on GT based on animals.

Don't know what the medical examiners think they claim to have seen, but I have yet to hear of a medical examiner who had any clue what handgun round a BG (or GG I guess) was shot with and only had a clue from recovered bullets where they could simply measure caliber size if they cared to. I say this based on what others have said who claim to be in a similar medical background profession as you.

Are these special MEs you refer to that are privy to more info than the average emergency room visits encountered?


Is there anyone out there that can verify what I'm saying about more visible wound damage in animals when using 357SIG over 9mm? Preferably when comparing 125gr 357SIG loads @ 1350fps - 1450fps to 147gr 9mm loads at 800fps - 900fps. I only put this in bold and larger type for the idea that maybe more will notice it than may have otherwise.
You need to compare apples to apples here. I believe the story we read about the 357SIG hitting the dog and blowing it's stuffin's out involved a frangible bullet (Corbon) that expanded violently. 147gr 9mm's are normally not frangible. So we need to compare apples to apples if we are to say "The velocity made a difference". Say, gold-dot to gold-dot, or hst to hst, or something of the like. I rummaged around the 'net looking for some pix, and will continue to rummage.

*Frangible, I don't mean like a Glaser, or Sinterfire, I mean as in, known for fragmenting. I just wanted to clear that up.

The ME I referred to were those referenced by Lookin4u in a past thread here. Huge thread, surely you remember it? Shouldn't be hard to find.

ETA: Here is what I found of interest:

Quote:
FWIW, the 9mm XTP at about 1240 ft/sec, as well as the Winchester Ranger and 230-gr. Golden Sabers worked consistently well, but to my eyes none performed better than the other. If viewing only the javelina at the moment it was shot, I wouldn't have been able to say whether it had been shot with 9mm or 45 ammo!
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The Texas whitetail deer I've shot with 9mm, 38 Super, .44 Special, .45 Colt and .45 ACP have been pretty uniform in their responses to being shot. A few were instantly incapacitated and never got to their feet; they kicked a bit and then were done. Most jumped, ran a few yards and then keeled over. This is what I've seen time and again with these calibers. I have not used the big magnums considered more appropriate for this type activity so I cannot accurately comment on them. The interesting thing to me is that these smallish 110-lb. animals reacted essentially the same way whether hit with a 124-gr. 9mm XTP at 1240 ft/sec or a handloaded 255-gr. CSWC @ 900 ft/sec from the .45 Colt revolver! Those shot with 230-gr. Golden Sabers handloaded to about 950 ft/sec reacted most similarly to the ones shot with my 38 Super's 147-gr. Golden Saber at just under 1200 ft/sec!
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm

Read the whole article, it's pretty interesting, I think, and the man has obviously "been there, done that" with regards to shooting lots of animals with zippy .355's and slow .45's.

What I personally drew from it:

We know the 9mm and the .45 do NOT create identical permanent wound-cavities. The .45 creates a larger one. Yet the 9mm performed just the same as the .45. Why? Velocity? TC made up for the smaller permanent cavity? I won't even pretend to know. However, these experiences also seem to discount BPW having any effect, at least that this author saw. If a lightweight animal being hit with a zippy round reacted the same as a lightweight animal being hit with a 900fps hard cast bullet, I would say BPW was not at play here.

Included is a picture of a wound from a .45 and from a 127 +P+. Sadly, they are close-ups and you can't tell much.

Again, from the article:
Quote:
Yet, on animals from the size of Texas whitetail deer to javelina, I have seen the high-velocity 9mm JHP in +P trim demonstrate better than expected "stopping" and "killing power." This includes both 115-gr. +P loads from Corbon as well as the Federal +P+ 115-gr. law enforcement loads. Yet neither penetrates the mandated 12" minimum in ballistic gelatin. The Corbon frequently hits around 1400 ft/sec from my Hi Powers with the Federal version about 50 to 60 ft/sec behind. Either of these two 9mm rounds get around 10" penetration in gelatin, falling shy of the FBI's original penetration requirements. At the same time, in the animals I've shot with these loads, damage has been more than expected
I don't think this means they did BETTER than the .45, but that they did as well (reading the whole article), and he could not account for it. However, I would hazard a guess that the damage he referred to these rounds causing was a factor of fragmentation and not necessarily velocity. Ergo, chalk it up to bullet design instead of velocity (I guess you could argue that velocity caused fragmentation, but then, one could just argue in favor of using Glasers or something, not something I would do.). As he said later in the article, a 185gr Corbon did the same thing.

IN THE END

It seems that regardless of the mechanism used, 9mm, .45, .40, and .357 SIG all do about the same darn thing when you use the right ammo. You pays your moneys, you makes your choice, and you do your damndest to defend it on some random internet forum.

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Old 02-16-2010, 20:31   #479
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According to ME's, I have heard it doesn't matter, visibly. Tissue is elastic, and 1400fps is going to look identical to 800fps, provided the slug is the same size and there is no fragmentation.
TOTALLY wrong. If you were to examine the wound the 1400 fps round makes compared to the 800 fps one in feral hogs of similar size, you would understand...HUGE difference.
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Old 02-16-2010, 20:33   #480
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Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
You need to compare apples to apples here. I believe the story we read about the 357SIG hitting the dog and blowing it's stuffin's out involved a frangible bullet (Corbon) that expanded violently. 147gr 9mm's are normally not frangible. So we need to compare apples to apples if we are to say "The velocity made a difference". Say, gold-dot to gold-dot, or hst to hst, or something of the like. I rummaged around the 'net looking for some pix, and will continue to rummage.

*Frangible, I don't mean like a Glaser, or Sinterfire, I mean as in, known for fragmenting. I just wanted to clear that up.
I'm not refering to anyone comparing a frangible (or any bullet that even frags much all if any) bullet for either load. XTPs were included in what I've seen/been told of.
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Old 02-16-2010, 20:35   #481
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TOTALLY wrong. If you were to examine the wound the 1400 fps round makes compared to the 800 fps one in feral hogs of similar size, you would understand...HUGE difference.
Thank you kind sir! Anyone else?
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Old 02-16-2010, 20:38   #482
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I do find that interesting, however, there is something that people who view this do not take into consideration often times. The thoracic cavity is not homogenous like gelatin blocks are. There exists many "partitions", as it were, and lots of empty/dead space. Energy is not distributed nearly as efficiently through the thoracic cavity as it is through a gelatin block.
You're correct about the gelatin blocks. Aside from that I forgot to mention that the added damage I've seen in pics with 357SIG over 9mm was in deer and in goats. Plus I've been told about it in feral dogs and coyotes.
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Old 02-16-2010, 21:04   #483
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You're correct about the gelatin blocks. Aside from that I forgot to mention that the added damage I've seen in pics with 357SIG over 9mm was in deer and in goats. Plus I've been told about it in feral dogs and coyotes.
Was it a non-fragmenting bullet of similar construction used in both cases?
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Old 02-16-2010, 21:06   #484
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TOTALLY wrong. If you were to examine the wound the 1400 fps round makes compared to the 800 fps one in feral hogs of similar size, you would understand...HUGE difference.
The wound I linked you to from a 127gr +P+ 9mm looks identical to the wound from a 230gr Golden Sabre. A deer was involved. That is about 900fps vs. 1300fps, or thereabouts.
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Old 02-16-2010, 21:47   #485
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Was it a non-fragmenting bullet of similar construction used in both cases?
.Yes.
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Old 02-16-2010, 21:48   #486
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The wound I linked you to from a 127gr +P+ 9mm looks identical to the wound from a 230gr Golden Sabre. A deer was involved. That is about 900fps vs. 1300fps, or thereabouts.
Link?
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Old 02-16-2010, 21:50   #487
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Link?
taken from post #478
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm

Did I catch you...skimming?

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Old 02-16-2010, 22:17   #488
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Yes but it says the wounds look alike and the 45 pic was taken at a closer range. For me, if a .355 can make the same size wound as a 45, then velocity must to have something to do with it. I also do not know if looking at a wound tells the whole story of the effectiveness. If I thought that a 9mm could make the same wound as a 45, I would be carrying my light G19 instead of the heavier XD or 1911.
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Old 02-16-2010, 22:21   #489
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Yes but it says the wounds look alike and the 45 pic was taken at a closer range. For me, if a .355 can make the same size wound as a 45, then velocity must to have something to do with it. I also do not know if looking at a wound tells the whole story of the effectiveness. If I thought that a 9mm could make the same wound as a 45, I would be carrying my light G19 instead of the heavier XD or 1911.
I alluded to this as well. I agree with you that "something is up" if a .55" projectile is making the same wound as a .75" projectile. (expanded, rough estimate).

Also, the author claimed he could not tell whether a 9mm or a .45 was used on the deer or javelina, based on their reaction and the outcome.

However, he also says things that sound quite contrary to any BPW causing any TBI's.
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Old 02-17-2010, 00:39   #490
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Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm

Read the whole article, it's pretty interesting, I think, and the man has obviously "been there, done that" with regards to shooting lots of animals with zippy .355's and slow .45's.

What I personally drew from it:

We know the 9mm and the .45 do NOT create identical permanent wound-cavities. The .45 creates a larger one. Yet the 9mm performed just the same as the .45. Why? Velocity? TC made up for the smaller permanent cavity? I won't even pretend to know. However, these experiences also seem to discount BPW having any effect, at least that this author saw. If a lightweight animal being hit with a zippy round reacted the same as a lightweight animal being hit with a 900fps hard cast bullet, I would say BPW was not at play here.

Included is a picture of a wound from a .45 and from a 127 +P+. Sadly, they are close-ups and you can't tell much.

Again, from the article:

I don't think this means they did BETTER than the .45, but that they did as well (reading the whole article), and he could not account for it. However, I would hazard a guess that the damage he referred to these rounds causing was a factor of fragmentation and not necessarily velocity. Ergo, chalk it up to bullet design instead of velocity (I guess you could argue that velocity caused fragmentation, but then, one could just argue in favor of using Glasers or something, not something I would do.). As he said later in the article, a 185gr Corbon did the same thing.

IN THE END

It seems that regardless of the mechanism used, 9mm, .45, .40, and .357 SIG all do about the same darn thing when you use the right ammo. You pays your moneys, you makes your choice, and you do your damndest to defend it on some random internet forum.
I didn't skim it. I believe you added all this when you edited the post adding all this additional stuff after I had already quoted it when it had been a much smaller post. Hadn't gone back to look at it after I quoted it.

I read the link. It was interesting. I can't explain what the man says in reguard to the various loads all seeming to drop game equally well overall. Then again, there's no good reason it shouldn't have happened the way it did. I do assume he's generally telling the God's honest truth. What I can say is that I would't have expected any overall difference between 9 or 45.

A man from Mississippi was the one who told me of the feral dogs and coyotes he's shot. He had specifically claimed that he had used 9mm 127gr +P+ (among some other 9mm loads) and a 125gr 357SIG load (can't remember the specific load). He said the 357SIG load clearly dispatched the animals quicker on average than any 9mm load he had ever used. He assured me he had taken out dozens of animals before coming to that conclusion.

My theory is that it really takes ~1400fps and up with bullets that penetrate 10" - 13" in ballistic gel and expand well with a little bit to a moderate amount of fragmentation to begin to really start noticing the effects of BPW taking effect any kind of majority of the time. I have nothing to back that up. Can't prove it, and only have circumstancial evidence to support it.

That said, it's not that surprising to me that the guy in the link you provided didn't see a difference in incapcitation times between the 45 load and 9mm 127gr +P+ load. I think it would have been more telling to see results from a sample size a bit larger than 1 each. But we can't always have our cake and eat it too. Therefore, I digress.
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Old 02-17-2010, 00:47   #491
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However, he also says things that sound quite contrary to any BPW causing any TBI's.
Sure, but it also didn't sound as though his sample size was any greater than 1 with any individual load. Besides that for most loads he mentioned (even outside of 9 and 45), any effects by BPW would have ranged from surprising it happened to unlikely that it would happen.
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Old 02-17-2010, 18:12   #492
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Aside from one jerk, this has been a very informative thread and I want to thank everyone for making me smarter.

Jim
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Old 02-17-2010, 20:30   #493
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Sure, but it also didn't sound as though his sample size was any greater than 1 with any individual load. Besides that for most loads he mentioned (even outside of 9 and 45), any effects by BPW would have ranged from surprising it happened to unlikely that it would happen.
Reading the article, it looks like he shot a LOT of pigs on that trip...
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Old 02-17-2010, 21:32   #494
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I think the real question comes down to.....

1. What advantages does the .357 offer over the .40S&W in the same platform.

2. In the same platform, is it worth sacrificing a few rounds of 9mm to gain a slight edge in stopping power by going to the 357?

3. Removing extended ranges and slightly better barrier penetration from the equation, what advantages, if any, are left?

4. What % of shootings where extended range and slightly better barrier penetration of the .357SIG a deciding factor?

5. For the "average" civilian, what advantage does the 357 offer, considering the actual dynamics of most self defense shootings?
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Old 02-17-2010, 22:14   #495
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I think the real question comes down to.....

1. What advantages does the .357 offer over the .40S&W in the same platform.
Better penetration of certain hard targets, such as metal air-compressors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7qU09eo1Bk

2. In the same platform, is it worth sacrificing a few rounds of 9mm to gain a slight edge in stopping power by going to the 357?
That is a personal question. It depends on the scenarios someone thinks they will encounter.

3. Removing extended ranges and slightly better barrier penetration from the equation, what advantages, if any, are left?
The 357SIG seems inherently more accurate. Based on testing done by Dr. Roberts, and others.

4. What % of shootings where extended range and slightly better barrier penetration of the .357SIG a deciding factor?
I am unsure, but I do recall an article a while back in a LE magazine about police engaugements at 40+ yards using their side-arms. Seems it does happen.

5. For the "average" civilian, what advantage does the 357 offer, considering the actual dynamics of most self defense shootings?
The "average" citizen will never have to shoot someone, and if they do, there is no "average" shooting.
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:56   #496
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I'm no big fan of the sig, but seeing how a G32 becomes a G19 after a barrel swap. It would make sense to go ahead and grab a G32/23.

For civvies 9mm is more economical but LE is a different story, but even in that light I still would opt for 9mm. SHTF or not, I have a feeling 9mm will be the last cartridge ever fired.

For me it's either 9mm or 45, easier to find and cheaper. You'll notice how people with assault rifles feel secure with such a sissy handgun load.
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Old 02-18-2010, 05:00   #497
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357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

This statement is true if you have trained with your weapon and are capable of putting rounds in COM or head. The best man stoppers are in the hands of those who train and can put rounds in the right spot.
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Old 02-18-2010, 07:32   #498
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You'll notice how people with assault rifles feel secure with such a sissy handgun load
Back when I was being paid to carry an assault rifle, I didn't feel so secure with a 9mm.
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:21   #499
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I believe the 357SIG performance is about the same as the 38 Super Colt brought out in 1929 to help LE's penetrate auto bodies. History recycled.
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:27   #500
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I believe the 357SIG performance is about the same as the 38 Super Colt brought out in 1929 to help LE's penetrate auto bodies. History recycled.
Pretty much, and for almost the same reasons. However, we now have bonded-bullets, and reliable JHP's. This makes the 357SIG more than the 38 Super was back in its hay-day by quite a margin.
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