GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-08-2010, 08:01   #1
MTPD
Senior Member
 
MTPD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 2,523
Armed Robbery: What to do?

This advice is for those who carry concealed legally and refuse to be victims.

(1) Plan ahead. Decide what you will do if confronted by an armed robber, memorize it, practice it, and if the situation ever comes up, ACT THE INSTANT THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES!

(2) Play "What if?" games in your mind. For example, when you walk into a 7/11 ask yourself what you would do "if" this or that happens.

(3) Bear in mind that during real life armed robberies there are almost always opportunities to take out the robber(s). They usually don't watch everyone all the time. Or they get distracted by something or other. When their attention is momentarily elsewhere, that's the time to ACT!

(4) Carry a 100% reliable and effective pistol (or two) loaded with effective ammo, and practice enough to be confident in your ability to prevail. Confidence breeds success.

(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".

(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.
__________________
My advice isn't for everyone. It's primarily for legally armed citizens who refuse to be victims.

Last edited by MTPD; 04-08-2010 at 18:28..
MTPD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 08:06   #2
TACC GLOCK
SEMPER FIDELIS
 
TACC GLOCK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,024
I agree, good post.
__________________
God grant me the courage not to give up what I think is right even though I think it is hopeless. - Chester W. Nimitz
TACC GLOCK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 08:36   #3
dgg9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bucks County, PA, USA
Posts: 18,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTPD View Post
(5) Ignore all the "please don't start a gunfight" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".
Ignore all the Rambo nonsense you see on the net, usually issued by wannabes with no vetted police experience.

The fallacy in the quoted post is obvious. The shot BG doesn't need to "shoot back," he just needs to be able to pull the trigger before dying. Handgun rounds notoriously don't instantly vaporize anyone. Don't conflate "accurate aimed return fire from the BG to you" with "gunfight." If the BG is squeezing off rounds, bystanders, clerks, or you could get shot.

That said, that doesn't means you don't shoot the BG. It means you THINK about the totality of the situation and assess what's the best course of action. Sometimes shoot, sometimes not.

Last edited by dgg9; 04-08-2010 at 08:37..
dgg9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 10:34   #4
David Armstrong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Lake Charles, LA
Posts: 11,125
Quote:
This advice is for those who carry concealed legally.
It is worth noting that, as usual, virtually all law enforcment agencies, security professionals, and other folks that actually know something about this stuff disagree with most of the advice posted.
David Armstrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 10:45   #5
PlayboyPenguin
Senior Member
 
PlayboyPenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,344
I am going to have to side with those that stated the advice given in the OP is NOT good advice. In my small amount of police experience I noticed that the vast majority of armed robberies never resulted in anyone being shot. Shooting the first chance you get to act during such an encounter increases the odds of someone dying during the encounter. I would add that my experience is quite different regarding someone getting hit and firing back. I have seen someone manage to squeeze off rounds even after being hit on multiple occasions.

I am always a little bit torn regarding how to react to a robbery though. About the only thing I can say for certain is play it by ear and react to your specific situation. If it seems like giving them the money will cause them to leave without harming anyone d it. If they give you reason to believe they are going to harm someone anyway then fight back. The most important thing is to stay calm and react with forethought and planning.
__________________
"Laugh all you want, but when the zombies come we both know whose house you will be running to for protection."
- My response to friends that laugh at me for collecting firearms
PlayboyPenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 11:45   #6
MTPD
Senior Member
 
MTPD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 2,523
[QUOTE=PlayboyPenguin;15089174

...Shooting the first chance you get to act during such an encounter increases the odds of someone dying during the encounter....
.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! But instead of it being the helpless victim that dies, it will probably be the armed robber.
__________________
My advice isn't for everyone. It's primarily for legally armed citizens who refuse to be victims.

Last edited by MTPD; 04-15-2010 at 21:24..
MTPD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 12:28   #7
LittleRedToyota
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,437
whatever plan one comes up with, try it in force-on-force.

one might decide one needs to come up with a new plan.

(my plan is generally "give the guy my wallet and do not turn a robbery into something worse"*...though it is, of course, situationally dependent.)

(*note that when i say "something worse", i mean for me. i don't care if an armed robber gets hurt or killed as a result of his armed robbery. but i would rather lose my wallet and live than die/be seriously injured and then lose my wallet.)
__________________
F*S=k

Last edited by LittleRedToyota; 04-08-2010 at 12:30..
LittleRedToyota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 12:34   #8
PlayboyPenguin
Senior Member
 
PlayboyPenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTPD View Post
Exactly! But instead of it being the helpless victim that dies, odds are that it will be the armed robber.

It comes down to this, who would you rather see die, the innocent victim or the vicious armed felon?

Being from the "Olde School of Police Work", I don't understand the modern cop mentality of not wanting anyone (including perps) to get hurt. In my day, dangerous armed felons were authorized targets and we didn't care if they lived or died. If they were lucky, we gave them a split-second to surrender. If they surrendered, fine. If they didn't, we dropped them. And contrary to Playboy's experience, none hit solidly was ever was able to fire back. (Not that it can't happen, but it never did in my experience.)

The people we did care about were the innocent victims we were expected to, and did, protect. Unlike some modern cops, like those in charge at Columbine who didn't even try to protect the innocent until after it was too late.
I do not see much validity in your statements. I do not think most cops care of a perp gets hurt. They do not want to see non-deadly encounters escalated to deadly ones. I do not see any evidence to support drawing on an armed person results in them dying more often than the person drawing second either.
__________________
"Laugh all you want, but when the zombies come we both know whose house you will be running to for protection."
- My response to friends that laugh at me for collecting firearms
PlayboyPenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 13:09   #9
dgg9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bucks County, PA, USA
Posts: 18,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTPD View Post
It comes down to this, who would you rather see die, the innocent victim or the vicious armed felon?
Except it doesn't come down to that. Once you start shooting, there's no guarantee who dies.

Quote:
And contrary to Playboy's experience, none hit solidly was ever was able to fire back. (Not that it can't happen, but it never did in my experience.)
And of course your "experience" is unvetted, undocumented, unproven, and worth exactly nothing as evidence.
dgg9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 14:56   #10
6F0 Nick
Just Wanna Fly
 
6F0 Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: East Coast
Posts: 1,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTPD View Post
Being from the "Olde School of Police Work", I don't understand the modern cop mentality of not wanting anyone (including perps) to get hurt. In my day, dangerous armed felons were authorized targets and we didn't care if they lived or died. If they were lucky, we gave them a split-second to surrender. If they surrendered, fine. If they didn't, we dropped them. And contrary to Playboy's experience, none hit solidly was ever was able to fire back. (Not that it can't happen, but it never did in my experience.)
Is this you OP?
Tactics and Training
__________________
Id ask for the worlds rarest truffle. Then while they were searching for it, Id tunnel my way to freedom. Of course, then Id miss eating the worlds rarest truffle. Quite the quandary.
-Dale Gribble on what to order for your last meal
6F0 Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 15:01   #11
poodleplumber
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,074
I'm not sure all of the OP advice needs to be discarded. Thinking about different scenarios in advance can certainly help your mind to work well in a stressful situation. And I doubt that many of us would disagree that being ordered to lay face down on the floor or go into a back room puts us at greater risk of being eliminated as witnesses, and therefore increases the danger level quite considerably and might be a cause to use lethal force.

But since most armed robberies do not end in gunfire, there are certainly a lot of situations that do not call for lethal force and can be allowed to play out. I teach my office staff that if there is an armed robbery, they are to give the robber anything they need to give them to get them out of the building without getting someone hurt. I can replace any goods and equipment that I have, and I can go back to work and earn more money, but my staff members are real people with family and friends and loved ones, and they alone, of all the things in my office, are irreplaceable. Initiating an exchange of gunfire in close quarters at a time when there is still a reasonable chance at ending the situation more safely is not consistent with my commitment to the safety and well being of my staff, or even of strangers.
poodleplumber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 18:21   #12
MTPD
Senior Member
 
MTPD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 2,523
Bear in mind my advice isn't for sheeple.
__________________
My advice isn't for everyone. It's primarily for legally armed citizens who refuse to be victims.

Last edited by MTPD; 04-15-2010 at 21:25..
MTPD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 18:37   #13
dgg9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bucks County, PA, USA
Posts: 18,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTPD View Post
Unvetted Dgg? Evidently you missed some previous threads where my police credentials were confirmed.
Nice bait and switch. Yes, surprisingly, someone vouched that you were in some PD at one time. But none of your claimed Walter Mitty exploits or factoids are vetted or documented. The fact that every one of your claims is rejected by virtually every known cop on this board speaks volumes.
dgg9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 20:50   #14
PhoneCop
TeleDetective
 
PhoneCop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,972


I really got nothing to say on this tired subject, instead I just wanted to see my new avatar.
PhoneCop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 23:07   #15
btmj
Member
 
btmj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 22
I am not a cop. But I know cops, in my family, as friends etc.

If MTPD is a cop, he sure does not talk like any LEO I ever knew... Not saying he is or isn't, but no LEO I ever knew would say things like:

"In my day, dangerous armed felons were authorized targets and we didn't care if they lived or died. If they were lucky, we gave them a split-second to surrender. If they surrendered, fine. If they didn't, we dropped them."

Even the "old school" cops I know, long retired, do not use language like that.
btmj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 23:37   #16
Chieftain
Member
 
Chieftain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Free State of Arizona
Posts: 53
MTPD,

If you are in fact on duty, with that present state of mind, you need to be relieved, NOW! Mostly for your own good, but for the agency and Jurisdiction you work for.

Please, to educate those of us that disagree with you, give us a valid reference supporting your point of view and why this would be the preferred tactics in this sort of situation.

I have rather extensive combat experience. If all I needed to stop a VCA from a violent act was a pistol shot to COM, why do we use rifles and shotguns? I don't trust any handgun, and frankly, many rifles to stop anyone short of a solid CNS hit. And so do every one of the terminal Ballistic researchers I know and know of. That includes the FBI.

Go figure.

Fred
__________________
Stupid should hurt
MINDSET - SKILLSET - TOOLSET - IN THAT ORDER! OODA -- COL John Boyd, USAF

To lead untrained men in to war, is to waste them. - Confucious
Semper Fi
Chieftain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2010, 01:07   #17
wprebeck
Die, bird, die!
 
wprebeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In a swamp, if I'm lucky
Posts: 8,659
Re: MTPD -

One of our regular officers in Coptalk has a quote from MTPD as a sig line; it's "advice" similar to the above, and mentions something about when going hands-on with a subject, the officer should drop the magazine from his gun, and rely on a backup piece.


If that's how that did it in the old days, then it's amazing ANY officers survived to make it to retirement. I'm fairly sure folks like Dragoon, Seanmac, and Blueiron weren't taught/didn't teach weapon retention in such a fashion. I know I haven't been taught anything remotely resembling such idiocy, and if I were, I'd ignore it and likely wouldn't participate in such jackassery.

Oh, and MTPD -

I've seen scars on inmates who've taken multiple hits on center mass from handguns; one that stands out took some .44 Magnum rounds in his torso. I'm fairly sure that, since he was breathing and talking to me, he survived. Pistol calibers aren't the best for stopping folks who are seriously dedicated to trying to kill you.

For those who don't know MTPD - he puts out some very....out there...advice.
__________________
Take 'em!
wprebeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2010, 07:40   #18
MTPD
Senior Member
 
MTPD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 2,523
OK, I give up. Go ahead and do like the modern-day so-called "experts" here suggest and meekly hand over your wallet, your wife, your kids and your manhood to any slime-ball with a gun.
__________________
My advice isn't for everyone. It's primarily for legally armed citizens who refuse to be victims.

Last edited by MTPD; 04-15-2010 at 21:26..
MTPD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2010, 08:05   #19
dgg9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bucks County, PA, USA
Posts: 18,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTPD View Post
......and the mamsy-pamsy media certainly won't like that!
Unlike the 70s cop shows, which is the only media that informs you.
dgg9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2010, 08:16   #20
beatcop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 1,893
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTPD View Post
OK, I give up. Go ahead and do like the modern-day so-called "experts" here suggest and meekly hand over your wallet, your wife, your kids and your manhood to any slime-ball with a gun. Then submissively curl up on the floor in the forlorn hope you and yours won't be executed, and cry for your mama! It won't bother me a bit if you do, and David, Dgg, et al, will love you for it.

Above all, if you do somehow scrape up the courage to resist armed felons, please don't shoot first, fast and accurate like I advise. If you do, you just might drop the BG......and the mamsy-pamsy media certainly won't like that!
I don't think anyone is saying to just surrender in every circumstance, but to use your head. This stuff is so situational that a "kill, kill, kill!" response isn't the best course of action in every scenario....you can't teach every scenario, so why pretend there's only one answer and everyone else is an idiot.

Like I've said before, it's not always "Can I shoot?" it's "Do I have to shoot?". If you are/were a cop in a town with some population density you probably saw a few things and had a couple experiences which could have gotten ugly...you'd also realize what motivates a crook to commit armed robberies. They like the money!!! It enables their addictions...if all they want is to grab a couple bucks and run, why inject yourself into the mix? I'm talking about a citizen, not a cop.

Is a pack of Newports and $40 bucks worth getting killed over?


Quote:
(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight

The obvious: CNS=DRT, heart=dead in a minute

Dead men kill...go google up the north hollywood BOA robbery or Platt and Mattix.

I've seen a lot of walking wounded...crook on crook shootings, granted a lot were with substandard handguns and ammo, but it's an indicator of combat accuracy. For every guy that was laying down, 10 were running/walking. Don't fool yourself into thinking you can keep your **** wired tight or that some fool who doesn't practice/has never aimed a weapon at a living person is going to turn into a gunfighter....

Last edited by beatcop; 04-09-2010 at 08:25..
beatcop is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:28.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 773
174 Members
599 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42