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Old 04-09-2010, 08:21   #21
MTPD
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My advice isn't for everyone. It's primarily for legally armed citizens who refuse to be victims.

Last edited by MTPD; 04-15-2010 at 21:27..
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Old 04-09-2010, 08:29   #22
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...I had the highest felony arrest record in the history of my high crime city PD.
Sir, if you're retired now, spill the beans...what city? There's no more need for opsec.
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Old 04-09-2010, 08:51   #23
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This quote of yours is so silly that I can't believe you are a real cop.

Beat says: Is a pack of Newports and $40 bucks worth getting killed over?

Let me explain. It's not the loss of money or goods that justifies dropping armed robbers. It is the deadly threat they pose to you and yours by pointing a gun at you. And, unless you are a mind-reader, you can't possibly know before they pull the trigger if they are just after a payday, or if they intend to murderer you.
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My advice isn't for everyone. It's primarily for legally armed citizens who refuse to be victims.

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Old 04-09-2010, 08:56   #24
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In essence, I would much rather rely on me and my pistola for survival, than on dumb luck.
In essence, the fact that you are incapable of realizing that once you start the bullets flying, you ARE relying on a fair amount of dumb luck makes it hard to believe you were ever a cop.

If you choose to watch and wait while a 7/11 robbery is happening, there's a chance that bystanders / the clerk / you get shot.

If you choose to start shooting, there's a chance that bystanders / the clerk / you get shot.

Neither route carries any guarantees.

Last edited by dgg9; 04-09-2010 at 08:58..
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Old 04-09-2010, 09:04   #25
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Ahhhhhhhhh another gem from MTPD.

Tagged while I grab some popcorn.
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Old 04-09-2010, 09:05   #26
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This quote of yours is so silly that I can't believe you are a real cop.
Sorry to derail the thread, but If I said I was a retired NYC cop (which I am not), what's the issue? 50k cops on board now, how many retired over 20 yrs? C'mon if you have the training and experience, lay it out there...otherwise we can just get back to our "opinion" based posts.

Me: FTO, Firearms Instructor, less-lethal shotgun instructor, "shooting decisions" certified...have done small city "urban" policing

MTPD? The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (Metro) Transit Police Department (MTPD)????

Beat says: Is a pack of Newports and $40 bucks worth getting killed over?

Quote:
Let me explain, since you don't seem to get it. It's not the loss of money or goods that justifies dropping armed robbers. It is the deadly threat they pose to you by pointing a gun at you. And, unless you are a mind-reader, you can't possibly know before they pull the trigger if they are just after a payday, or if they really intend to murderer you. That's why I advocate dropping evey armed robber at the first opportunity.

In essence, I would much rather rely on me and my pistola for survival, than on dumb luck.
Like I said, this stuff is too subjective...

Yup, I agree, if it looks like someone is going to get killed, I'll intervene. However, if a crook does a "grab and go" who cares? If you're not sworn, why expose yourself to the risk?

Last edited by beatcop; 04-09-2010 at 09:42..
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Old 04-09-2010, 09:20   #27
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I like MPTD's advice, that being said i do understand sometimes you shoot and sometimes u don't. It all depends on what is going on around you.

Thank you MPTD for speaking your mind.
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Old 04-09-2010, 09:22   #28
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Since I have a minute to kill...sorry if this is too obvious for the S&T reader.

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(1) Plan ahead. Decide what you will do if confronted by an armed robber, memorize it, practice it, and if the situation ever comes up, ACT THE INSTANT THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES!
The .mil calls them battle drills. They allow you to "react" instead of going through all stages of the ooda loop.

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2) Play "What if?" games in your mind. For example, when you walk into a 7/11ask yourself what you would do "if" this or that happens.
Great idea...see above. Only one problem, if you have no idea what an appropriate reaction or a reality based scenario is, what's the point?

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(3) Bear in mind that during real life armed robberies there are almost always opportunities to take out the robber(s). They usually don't watch everyone all the time. Or they get distracted by something or other. When their attention is momentarily elsewhere, that's the time to ACT!
We can debate the idea of shooting a robber in the back and usually conclude it's usually a GO, but you better be damn sure of what you're doing and have a full awareness of legal and tactical ramifications. There are a ton of other factors that some will observe (type of weapons, number of robbers, their MO, cover/concealment, backup) and there are some things that may be "perceived" (your skill level, the crooks apparent calmness/skill, the liklihood of success). Some will say to look out for your own safety and avoid initiating a gunfight if one isn't "likely" to occur without your intervention.

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(4) Carry a 100% reliable and effective pistol (or two) loaded with effective ammo, and practice enough to be confident in your ability to prevail. Confidence breeds success.
Agreed.

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(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".
See my previous posts...dead people can kill.

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(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.
Very situational, but I would say that you are on to something here...this has been debated in other posts at length.

Last edited by beatcop; 04-09-2010 at 09:31..
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:05   #29
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OK, I give up. Go ahead and do like the modern-day so-called "experts" here suggest and meekly hand over your wallet, your wife, your kids and your manhood to any slime-ball with a gun. Then submissively curl up on the floor in the forlorn hope you and yours won't be executed, and cry for your mama! It won't bother me a bit if you do, and David, Dgg, et al, will love you for it.

Above all, if you do somehow scrape up the courage to resist armed felons, please don't shoot first, fast and accurate like I advise. If you do, you just might drop the BG......and the mamsy-pamsy media certainly won't like that!
Okay, I was being polite before, but now I ham inclined to believe you are NOT a police officer. I do not care how many screennames you have and how many of them you use to back up your own tales. No police officer would ever equate being robbed to "turning over your manhood." That makes me believe that you are definitely not a retired LEO. In fact I doubt you are of legal age to even hold a job yet. That post shows a level of immaturity beyond any I have ever seen from even the worst LEO.
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:22   #30
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Doing some basic statistics on robberies and murders committed during robberies, it would seem that a murder is committed in about 1 in 500 robberies. If it is a simple robbery (no shots fired, they're not trying to get you in a back room), you are far more likely to live if you don't draw your weapon. If you draw, your odds are far worse than 1 in 500. Live for another day, go home and post a macho story on glocktalk.
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Old 04-09-2010, 13:23   #31
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Okay, I was being polite before, but now I am inclined to believe you are NOT a police officer.
"What color is the boathouse at hereford?"


.....pin-drop
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Old 04-09-2010, 13:27   #32
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"What color is the boathouse at hereford?"


.....pin-drop
To me, it kind of doesn't matter if someone was a real LEO or a LE poseur if you can't tell the difference. MTPD fails what I call the "Internet LE imposter Turing Test," namely:

Is this person's posts about police work and firearms advice indistinguishable from the same advice given by a 15 year old whose entire knowledge base about guns and crime comes exclusively from bad 1970s cop shows?

Last edited by dgg9; 04-09-2010 at 13:30..
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Old 04-09-2010, 13:40   #33
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Armed robbery survival by "Vinny"...8:28 minutes...give it a chance he'll grow on you.....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9he1cpp4pw
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Old 04-09-2010, 13:51   #34
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from mtpd:
It comes down to this, who would you rather see die, the innocent victim or the vicious armed felon?
Being from the "Olde School of Police Work", I don't understand the modern cop mentality of not wanting anyone (including perps) to get hurt.
Actually, there are many other options beside the "it comes down to this" choice you suggest. And being a fairly old school cop myself, I wish to assure those reading this that most old cops then, just as now, do have concerns about people getting hurt and wanted to minimize that.

Quote:
from btmj:
If MTPD is a cop, he sure does not talk like any LEO I ever knew
While it does seem that he wore a badge at one time, most LEOs tend to disagree with just about everything he suggests regarding how police did things, or how LE or non-LE these days should do things. As I have phrased it, he may have worn a badge but it is obvious he never was really a cop.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 04-12-2010 at 08:55..
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Old 04-09-2010, 13:54   #35
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OK, I give up. Go ahead and do like the modern-day so-called "experts" here suggest and meekly hand over your wallet, your wife, your kids and your manhood to any slime-ball with a gun. Then submissively curl up on the floor in the forlorn hope you and yours won't be executed, and cry for your mama! It won't bother me a bit if you do, and David, Dgg, et al, will love you for it.
Perhaps you could find anywhere that any of the folks here have suggested doing that? Oh wait, never mind...you can't find it because YOU MADE IT UP!! (like so many other things you post!)

Quote:
At least one of the "experts" you apparently esteem was shot on the job, and I wasn't, even though I had the highest felony arrest record in the history of my high crime city PD. Now, I wonder why he was and I wasn't, if my advice is so bad and his so good?
Probably because he has a verified record of actaully making arrests and being in gunfights, while you have made lots of claims about it but haven't been able to convince a single known real officer here that you did ever made an arrest or pulled your gun out for anything besides cleaning it.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 04-09-2010 at 13:58..
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Old 04-09-2010, 14:07   #36
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During the Battle of Normandy (June-July 1944) the allied forces fielded 1.3 million men, and suffered 120,000 casualties.

Raise your hand if you think that the ones who survived were the better gunfighters, and the ones who died were killed because they failed to deliver a "powerful COM upper torso" hit to their enemies. This is the MTPD theory of combat.

Or do you instead believe that with all those bullets, bombs, and shells flying around, it was mostly luck that determined who made and who didn't. This is the DGG9 theory of combat.

Hint: read some history. All the guys who were there believe it was luck, not skill, that allowed them to survive.
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Old 04-09-2010, 14:21   #37
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Or do you instead believe that with all those bullets, bombs, and shells flying around, it was mostly luck that determined who made and who didn't. This is the DGG9 theory of combat.
I won't say "mostly" luck for all gunfights. But a "fair amount" of luck is definitely involved, even at the one on one level. There's skill too, but luck sometimes trumps skill.

ETA: but, to pursue your analogy: once you escalate (for example) a convenience store robbery into a gunfight, then for the BYSTANDERS, it's all about luck, like the Battle of Normandy.

Last edited by dgg9; 04-09-2010 at 14:24..
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Old 04-09-2010, 14:38   #38
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(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.
I don't get this. If someone is pointing a gun your head and they tell you to lie face down, why the F would you not do it? Why wouldn't they shoot you dead right there for not complying. To me, if you do what they tell you, you are more likely to be out of sight, out of mind because they know you followed their demands. You pull out the tough guy stuff, they're going to keep an eye on you or just shoot you to eliminate the threat. Lie down and as the BG attends to others or doing the actual robbery, then maybe pull your gun and shoot the bastard. I don't think I could look down a barrel and say no.

I am not LE or claim to know a lot about these situations, but to me, the number one thing is to blend in and adapt, then if possible, make a move.

Just my .02
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Old 04-09-2010, 14:53   #39
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I don't get this. If someone is pointing a gun your head and they tell you to lie face down, why the F would you not do it? Why wouldn't they shoot you dead right there for not complying. To me, if you do what they tell you, you are more likely to be out of sight, out of mind because they know you followed their demands. You pull out the tough guy stuff, they're going to keep an eye on you or just shoot you to eliminate the threat. Lie down and as the BG attends to others or doing the actual robbery, then maybe pull your gun and shoot the bastard. I don't think I could look down a barrel and say no.

I am not LE or claim to know a lot about these situations, but to me, the number one thing is to blend in and adapt, then if possible, make a move.

Just my .02
When this scenario is brought up it used to refer to the McDonalds shootings where they herded the staff into the walk-in fridge and popped then quietly. So, if it's one on one you're probably right...however, if they are "herding" the flock somewhere it could mean executions....or not.

On the floor:
-because it's easier to hit the back of someone's head than a moving target
-if the bad guy is planning on shooting a group....it's easier
-less stressful executing people who aren't looking
-won't get disarmed/rushed by victim
-passerby's won't see customers with hands up in the air and call LE
-one crook can guard and see a lot of people
-clear shot at people entering or running from the store
etc, etc....because they saw it in a movie?
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Old 04-09-2010, 15:05   #40
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When this scenario is brought up it used to refer to the McDonalds shootings where they herded the staff into the walk-in fridge and popped then quietly. So, if it's one on one you're probably right...however, if they are "herding" the flock somewhere it could mean executions....or not.

On the floor:
-because it's easier to hit the back of someone's head than a moving target
-if the bad guy is planning on shooting a group....it's easier
-less stressful executing people who aren't looking
-won't get disarmed/rushed by victim
-passerby's won't see customers with hands up in the air and call LE
-one crook can guard and see a lot of people
-clear shot at people entering or running from the store
etc, etc....because they saw it in a movie?
Some of that makes sense, but then what, when they've (maybe one BG, maybe 2 or 3) got a gun pointed at your head and tell you to lie face down and you say no? That seems like a lose/lose situation to me. It just seems like to me, if you obliged to their demands, you will have that split second opportunity to make a move if necessary.

If BG says, head to the back room and you say NO...boom dead! How does that work in your favor? If you're concealing a weapon at the time, IMO you are more likely to get an opportunity to take out the BG the more you blend in and don't draw attention.

Last edited by brausso; 04-09-2010 at 15:06..
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