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Old 05-20-2006, 23:09   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by V Creed
The final word: Every single "failure to stop", both on the street and in the woods, that I have personally witnessed, has been due to insufficient penetration. No exceptions.

On the other hand, the "fastest stops" have always been the result of COM hits with high velocity bullets, especially expanding bullets.

Best loads = deep penetrating, high velocity JHP's. ^c
A year and a half later, but I'd still like to say - good post!
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Old 09-18-2006, 19:20   #82
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This was great stuff, first time I've read it. A 240 gr. 44mag @ 1900 fps!?! I've never seen a 44mag load like that I must say. Not from a 7 1/2" barrel, not by Hornady. I've broken my thumb on a 200 gr. 44mag @ 1700 from a 5". SOB is still screwed up and that was a year and a half ago. Just saying... Very good stuff though guys, thanks.
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Old 09-18-2006, 19:23   #83
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Just looked at Hornady's site. It's a 240 @ 1350 from a 7.5".
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Old 09-02-2007, 06:35   #84
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Keep in mind the FBI slowed the 10mm down to 980 fps, so it would penetrate an average of 17.9". They wanted 18" of penetration, and, they got it.

The odd part about the 10mm is when you use the .40 bullets, at least the 180 GD's, 300 fps gives you maybe, a .5" more penetration, but, the bullet expands much better, up to .97 inches, vs the .6-.7" that the 40 usually opens up to.

S esq.
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Old 09-21-2007, 23:16   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by GlockBaby
Keep in mind the FBI slowed the 10mm down to 980 fps, so it would penetrate an average of 17.9". They wanted 18" of penetration, and, they got it.

The odd part about the 10mm is when you use the .40 bullets, at least the 180 GD's, 300 fps gives you maybe, a .5" more penetration, but, the bullet expands much better, up to .97 inches, vs the .6-.7" that the 40 usually opens up to.

S esq.

Not all that odd. The bullets designed for use in .40 S&W are designed to "function" (open up) at much lower velocities than a 10mm is capable of. If they hold together at higher 10mm velocities and open to .97 that is a clear indication of good bullet design. And, yes, expansion like that at higher velocities is likely to reduce penetration because of the larger surface area from the larger diameter causing the bullet to slow down faster due to "media" resistance.
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Old 10-18-2007, 08:50   #86
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Makes sense to me...now where I can I find a 180 Gold Dot doing 980fps.

Please hold the "get a 40", I'm sticking to my 10's thanks, I can make it a 40 with a mag change thanks.

Is the Georgia Arms 180 Gold Dot running at 1150 fps the best comprimize?
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Old 11-15-2007, 23:16   #87
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JB:

I've looked at 10mm ammo for awhile now, and, it looks like you loose too much velocity for the bullet weight, once the bullets get over 180 grains. Browning originally wanted a 200 grain 45 ACP bullet, going something like 1000 fps, or more. Maybe he also saw the reduction in bullet speed not being compensated, or benefited from the increase in bullet weight.

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

In other words, if you look at ballistic tables long enough, and gello results, you sort of see points where, as much as I love bullet weight, the increase in weight doesn't result in much benefit, except higher recoil. There hits a point where you just need a bigger case, not higher pressure.

You sort of hit a wall, where the increased bullet weight requires a speed increase the case and powder can't provide, or, the bullet needs to have a thicker jacket to limit the expansion speed, or a harder core, or premium design.

I'm really not sure much is gained increasing bullet weight with DT ammo going from the above 180 grain bullets.

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

In 45 ACP, at least with Gold Dots, it seems pretty clear the 230 grain both expands more, and penetrates deeper. However,
With 45 Super max velocity for the 230's is about 1100 fps, and, 1200 fps for the 200's, and, I don't have gello results...It is possible to push the 185's to 1350 fps, and, they might well both penetrate, and expand more then at 1225,...

GB
Quote:
45S185/50 185 gr. JHP @1300 fps (694 ft. lbs.) Per Box of 50
$41.99
Order Now!
45S200/50 200 gr. JHP @ 1200 fps (639 ft. lbs.) Per Box of 50
$41.99
Order Now!
45S230/50 230 gr. JHP @1100 fps (618 ft. lbs.) Per Box of 50
$41.99
Above are Buffalobore factory offerings in 45 Super.

Last edited by GlockBaby; 11-16-2007 at 09:04..
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Old 05-13-2008, 07:49   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockBaby View Post
JB:

I've looked at 10mm ammo for awhile now, and, it looks like you loose too much velocity for the bullet weight, once the bullets get over 180 grains. Browning originally wanted a 200 grain 45 ACP bullet, going something like 1000 fps, or more. Maybe he also saw the reduction in bullet speed not being compensated, or benefited from the increase in bullet weight.

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

In other words, if you look at ballistic tables long enough, and gello results, you sort of see points where, as much as I love bullet weight, the increase in weight doesn't result in much benefit, except higher recoil. There hits a point where you just need a bigger case, not higher pressure.

You sort of hit a wall, where the increased bullet weight requires a speed increase the case and powder can't provide, or, the bullet needs to have a thicker jacket to limit the expansion speed, or a harder core, or premium design.

I'm really not sure much is gained increasing bullet weight with DT ammo going from the above 180 grain bullets.

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

In 45 ACP, at least with Gold Dots, it seems pretty clear the 230 grain both expands more, and penetrates deeper. However,
With 45 Super max velocity for the 230's is about 1100 fps, and, 1200 fps for the 200's, and, I don't have gello results...It is possible to push the 185's to 1350 fps, and, they might well both penetrate, and expand more then at 1225,...

GB

Above are Buffalobore factory offerings in 45 Super.
Just to clarify: Checking the .45 ACP ballistics on the DT website, you'll see he uses a 5" 1911 to test his .45 ACP; whereas with the 10mm he uses a 4.6" Glock 20 stock barrel. So, to evenly compare the velocities and penetration / expansion, you'd have to test the 10mm with a 5" 1911 barrel against the DT .45 ACP results.
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:45   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freakshow10mm View Post
Velocity= trajectory. KE= penetration. When I look at ballistic charts and I see a velocity figure versus another I think faster bullet, flatter trajectory. When I see KE on chart, I think more KE, more penetration. I think the kinetic energy figure gives an estimate of the penetration of that particular projectile at that velocity. Velocity and energy are interdependant on each other. The higher the velocity the higher the energy. A KE figure gives me an idea of how deep it will penetrate into a body to reach the vitals. That is to say the same bullet with different KE figures, the one with more KE will penetrate deeper. KE is dependant of mass and velocity. Bullet design is also a factor and not taken into consideration for purposes of my ncoherent ramblings.
Kinetic Energy has almost nothing to do with penetration. Kinetic energy is the combined effect of velocity times mass (bullet weight). Bullet design and construction have far more affect on penetration than kinetic energy.

Velocity affects a bullet's performance at the target. If the bullet is lightly designed to open rapidly and expand to a wide diameter when making contact with the target; it will penetrate less than a bullet that is designed to expand slowly and slightly. It's simple, it is harder to push something with more frontal diameter and resistance through material than something that is narrower with less resistance. In fact, to an extent (there is a diminishing point), you can take two of the same bullets and shoot the target at different velocities, and the one with the lowest velocity will penetrate deeper than the one with the higher velocity. This is because the one with the lower velocity will cause the bullet to expand slower and to a narrower diameter than the one making contact at less velocity.

The opposite is true if the bullet being used doesn't expand at all; say a flat nosed FMJ bullet. In the case of this bullet, the higher the velocity the deeper the penetration.

So, forgive me if the writer quoted above was being "satirical" when he made his completely erroneous statement; but I could not resist the need to comment.

Oh, by the way. I think the perfect bullet would be a 10MM Auto 180 grain Barnes X-Bullet that would only expanded to it's full diameter (it is truncated to feed properly) when the target is hit and retain all of its weight as it travels through the entire target making a hole in and a big hole out and destroying everything in its path along the way. Right now Barnes almost has it right, but they need to increase the weight and decrease the expansion. When dealing with the slow velocities generated by handguns; it is massive tissue damage and hemorrhage that kills, not energy dump (KE) or any other such nonsense. Penetration is your friend; and the more penetration the better the friend.
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Old 12-17-2008, 22:35   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V Creed View Post
The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."" (emphasis added)

---------------------------------------

I agree (1) that too little penetration is bad. And (2) alleged "over penetration" I don't worry about.

But, having seen BG's stopped instantly with one shallow penetrating COM pistol bullet, I know that there is more to "stopping power" than deep +12" penetration. Whether it's called shock, or stopping power, or whatever, it exists and isn't a myth.

If not, maybe the FBI can explain why deep penetrating .38 special 158gr RNL bullets don't have much stopping power, but much shallower penetrating .357 mag 125gr JHP's do?

Luckily, 10mm full-velocity ammo in the heavier weights have both deep penetration and decisive stopping power.
Cases do exist where the 125 fails to adequately penetrate the vitals of a thick body.

Light and fast may work better than slow and heavy and vice-versa depending on the body type. This is why I choose heavy and fast. 10mm cant loose in either case.

XTP's at Double Tap 10mm velocity will actually perform more like a controlled expansion bullet in real tissue. Gold Dots at 10mm velocities may do fine in ballistic gel - but in tissue and bone - they may over expand (according to Ferrel dog shootings).

I see no problem with combat distances and 10mm DT XTP's.... Beyond 21 feet, the 10mm may lose enough velocity where over penetration becomes a concern with XTPs. Load up with XTP's and push them as fast as you can!
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Old 12-18-2008, 13:23   #91
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Originally Posted by Jitterbug View Post
Makes sense to me...now where I can I find a 180 Gold Dot doing 980fps.

Please hold the "get a 40", I'm sticking to my 10's thanks, I can make it a 40 with a mag change thanks.

Is the Georgia Arms 180 Gold Dot running at 1150 fps the best comprimize?

I'd say the 180 GD from G-A is the best compromise for what you're looking for. You could handload but the 180 GD Speer loads themselves is going 1025 from a 4" in .40. Really would not make sense to download 10mm lower than factory .40 IMO. Speer is coming out with a 200 GD that is supposed to hit around the 980 mark in .40. Hornady has a 200 XTP that is medium velocity for 10mm. I'd stick with the 180 GD by G-A.
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:30   #92
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Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."" (emphasis added)

-- Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
by Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT
FBI ACADEMY
QUANTICO, VIRGINIA
July 14, 1989
I know this is the prevailing wisdom these days, but I don't buy into it 100%. Think about it. This logic is based on the subject bleeding out. That does not happen quick enough to physically stop someone close to you with a deadly weapon. They dismiss "shock" too easily. I know its not been physically proven that shock matters, but something accounts for all the quick one shot stops that don't hit the vitals. I believe the feeling or in other words the psychological impact of being hit with a high energy projectile may easily have something to do with it. Just what was it that made the 125gr .357 magnum the legendary manstopper that it was? That round is clearly in the light/fast camp. I'm carrying 155gr when I carry my G20. Or maybe I'll get a 9x25 Dillon barrel for it.

Edit: Just noticed I essentially reposted what VCreed already said.
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Old 05-02-2009, 21:48   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greybeard View Post
Quote: "Hand guns are not the instant killers everyone makes them out to be"

You got that right! A "real world" example: During "extended spike and doe season" last weekend in Runnels County, I had a 40-yard shot on an old fat doe.

Handgun was Ruger SBH, 7 1/2" barrel. Hornady factory ammo, 240 grain XTP. Box sez 1900 fps at muzzle.

The doe had been facing me, but I waited until she turned predominately broadside before dropping the hammer. The XTP to lower chest made about a 1 1/2" entry hole in her hide, punched a slightly smaller hole into rib cage, caught the top of heart and one lung before leaving a barely-bleeding exit hole about 1/2 that diameter in rear of opposite side ribs.

Did the doe drop right there? Hardly. She immediately turned 180 degrees and ran like the wind for a solid 60 yards before piling up. After taking virtually a "text book" shot through the heart from a premo .452" 240 grain bullet traveling at around 1800 fps.

Does not exactly give even a .45 fan (with only about 1/2 the velocity) the warm fuzzies, huh?
My friend an avid deer hunter gun and bow. Nailed a deer with the 30-06 which should have dropped dead. It ran a 100 or so yards then dropped. Nothing is guaranteed 100% in bullet performance.
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Old 05-04-2009, 03:13   #94
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Hello everyone! Ummm.....I'm a gunsmith and a new member and was just wondering if this guy is gone now. I sure hope not, as I have not laughed this hard in a long time.

Why is a 6-inch-barreled 10mm lawful to hunt bear with in Montana if it is an inadequate little weapon? I'd much prefer getting hit with a basketball in Los Angeles than a 10mm in the groin (or in Montana).

Quote:
Originally Posted by glockophile View Post
This thread is ridiculous. So many things can and do go wrong in any type of gun fight. There are so many enormous risks. All gun fights are about choosing the best among several very bad options. There are NO good outcomes in a gunfight. Even the best possible case, where the display of a gun causes the situation to de-escalate, is still a bad outcome, because lethal force entered the scenario, even if it wasn't used. All handgun rounds are under-powered and inadequate and none of them penetrate adequately. You want a round that will dump as much eneergy as possible, cause as much tissue damage as possible, and penetrate as deeply as possible, and that means either a rifle round or a shotgun blast. Any pistol round is going to come up short compared to a rifle or a shotgun. A bullet may have to go through multiple layers of clothing, skin and bone, plus inches of fat and muscle, to get through to anything where it might cause incapacitation. Or it might have to go through a car door, a piece of furniture, etc, plus bone, fat and muscle to hopefully get to a major nerve center, heart or blood vessel. NO handgun round (other than hunting rounds) can do that reliably.

Yes, sure, perhaps a bullet could go through a target and cause harm on the other side... but if some innocent person is so close to someone who is causing deadly harm, the situation is horrible, someone is almost certain to be getting hurt anyway. That should be a very rare situation, unless you're a SWAT sniper, in which case you might use special frangible ammo, etc for something like that. If you're wasting time planning for these extremely rare and dangerous situations, then you must train continuously and be absolutely sharp for all the other much more likely situations. Even these "likely" situations are things that few of us will ever encounter in our lives, thank God.

Use the most powerful round you can handle, always, unless you really are on a SWAT team and you anticipate dealing with hostages, shootouts in drug labs, shootouts on an airplane, etc. All pistols are inadequate weapons. It's what you have because you can't carry a rifle or a shotgun, both of which always have more penetration that pistols.
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Old 05-04-2009, 03:40   #95
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Here's some incontrovertible video showing the difference between our 10s and the "legendary" .45ACP:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exxPPbQc4FQ&NR=1
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:20   #96
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with a frontal torso shot most any service caliber round can over penetrate easily.

ballistic gelotin is homogenous, humans are not.

a lung shot below the nipple area will encounter little muscle or fat, may stike a rib or pass between ribs, got through a lung which is quite hollow in terms of dense tissue and go out the back again maybe striking a rib or passing between them and strike little muscle. this is just anatomy.

if the round hits the pectoral muscle it will encounter dense muscle, maybe a rib, and possibly the scapula.

except for the sternum, heart, or pectorals, there isnt much desity in the upper part of the torso. while the abdomin will have more desity as will the limbs.

as stated before by others, more shots miss there intended target than hit it during a real life gun fight or other type of criminal attack.

shot placement is the deciding factor, bullet design is a far second place.
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Old 05-20-2009, 22:47   #97
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hey there.

I'm new to these boards but a student of Ballistics.

From a purely scientific standpoint, over penetration is technically ballistic failure of a bullet to transfer all of its kinetic energy into its intended target. For maximum effectiveness, you really want whatever bullet to stop in its target, thus transferring all of its energy into, in this case, soft tissue. If we're talking about larger bore rounds, the energy transference and temporary cavitation can actually liquefy internal organs in a (usually small) radius around the permanent wound channel.

From my studies (which, admittedly, are still in the beginning stages, but I am working toward a degree in forensic ballistics and toolmark examination), I'd personally say that .45 ACP is my round of choice. As far as internal ballistic pressure, size and speed are concerned, a .45 is a big-ass bullet moving relatively slowly (800-1100 fps on average), while 10mm is a smaller object moving considerably faster (around 1400 fps on average) and even though it takes more to stop a larger object, the PSI upon terminal impact is roughly (again, on average) 300-400 PSI higher in 10mm and the rounds have a tendency to punch on through while the .45, with its larger surface area, is slowed in soft tissue more readily.

Take this, and add the lateral stress from expansion of the JHP ammo that most shooters use for defense, and you'll see the .45 bullets either stopping or bouncing around inside the center mass as opposed to the 10mm which creates a smaller wound channel, exits the target and embeds itself into a wall behind the BG.

However, despite all the numbers, math and speculation...if we're talking about raw stopping power, a hollow point is a hollow point and shot placement is key. You can drop a perp just as fast with a .22 as you can a .500S&W if the bullet is in the right place. The question is simply this: how big and bloody would you like the hole to be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twoblackbelts View Post
Here's some incontrovertible video showing the difference between our 10s and the "legendary" .45ACP:


[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exxPPbQc4FQ&NR=1[/URL]
On this, and I am in no way trying to start a .45 ACP vs 10mm debate here, it displays the same issue I have with .40 S&W. It's a great round, but the recoil is sharp as hell. The 10mm has an even sharper recoil, thus making it not the right round for me personally (.45 ACP has a softer recoil and is easier for me to control). Some people like Fords and some People like Toyotas and even others like Cadillacs. It's all about what you, as a shooter, can control the best and hit with most accurately. Again, it's all about shot placement. I just happen to be able to place my shots better with a .45 than a 10mm.
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Old 05-21-2009, 17:47   #98
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Welcome to GT DarkDoor, and good luck with your studies. You obviously know something about wound ballistics, however there is a huge brain trust here on the subject. You might want to visit the Caliber Corner sub forum here, you can't help but learn even more. One thing I will say is that I think you were overgeneralizing a bit. 10mm rounds come in several different weights and velocities. A 135gr or even 155gr full power JHP 10mm will most likely not overpenetrate, but rather fragment, delivering all its energy to the target. That doesn't mean it will do a better job of stopping someone because it might not penetrate far enough. There is SO MUCH to consider regarding this subject. I wish you all the best in your studies and I might be even a little bit jealous.
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Old 05-21-2009, 17:55   #99
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Originally Posted by twoblackbelts View Post
Here's some incontrovertible video showing the difference between our 10s and the "legendary" .45ACP:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exxPPbQc4FQ&NR=1
Exactly what does this prove, other than that the "cup and saucer" grip went away for good reason.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:06   #100
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My idea of the right level of penetration is that the bullet stops just on the inside of a animal hide before it has a chance to exit.

That bullet would be as high of energy as possible.

That bullet would expand as much as possible.

That bullet would be as heavy as possible.

Have a good day.
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