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Old 10-02-2010, 06:40   #121
English
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Originally Posted by pistolcompetitor View Post
Take the snap cap and chamber it only after loading it in a mag and racking the slide. If you drop it directly into the chamber you risk damaging your extractor claw. One of the GATE guys mentioned this, too.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16074668
I can't believe that the impact of the ramped nose of the extractor against the rim of the cartridge would be enough to damage either. The extractor is clearly designed so that the rim of the incoming caartridge will slide up underneath it in the normal rechambering process. It is also clearly designed so that it will cam over the rim of a cartridge which is already in the chamber and I know an instructor who believes he must have done this several thousand times with the same G19 in the process of demonstrating misfeeds. His extractor is still the original one.

This does not mean that extractors cannot break but I doubt that they break for this reason.

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Old 10-02-2010, 07:01   #122
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Originally Posted by gunsmoke92 View Post
Thanks Danny, good info for sure. I am sorry Sir that so many people can't just take good information and say thanks, instead of questioning good peoples motives. Use the information, don't use the information, it's up to the individual, but trying to discredit an individual for providing something useful is just deplorable. It's people like you that get people like us to the next level. Thanks again and keep up the good work.
I agree.
DannyR, remember the police training adage "Idle and silly remarks will be ignored". Also the old WW11 poster:-
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Old 10-02-2010, 09:18   #123
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Thanks Danny and Wriggly for the informative info and pictures. I have to order some snap caps so I can continue to practice for the GSSF Match later this month. I really do enjoy this forum as I learn so much.
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Old 10-02-2010, 09:38   #124
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I have alway's thought snap caps for dry firing is a good Idea.
But you have to admit it makes Glock's (and others) disassemble method seem strange if not wrong? In theory you risk damage each time you break it down. You would think Glock would redesign it so that it does not have to be dry fired for take down.
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Old 10-02-2010, 17:48   #125
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Think I'll call BS on this one. Snap caps are probably a good idea, not not needed in my opinion.
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Old 10-02-2010, 19:02   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
I can't believe that the impact of the ramped nose of the extractor against the rim of the cartridge would be enough to damage either. The extractor is clearly designed so that the rim of the incoming caartridge will slide up underneath it in the normal rechambering process. It is also clearly designed so that it will cam over the rim of a cartridge which is already in the chamber and I know an instructor who believes he must have done this several thousand times with the same G19 in the process of demonstrating misfeeds. His extractor is still the original one.

This does not mean that extractors cannot break but I doubt that they break for this reason.

English

I tried to close a Glock slide, on a chambered round, by dropping the slide from spring pressure. After 3 or 4 tries, I quit because the extractor wouldn't jump the cartridge rim. I was afraid it may get chipped. I've seen pictures, here on GT of extractors that did chip. I don't know the actual cause of those chips.

I found out that I could chamber a round, ease the slide closed and then just push on the rear of the slide, with my thumb to close it. The extractor wouldn't slide over the rim when hit at high speed but will if just pushed over it.

One of my Glocks would chamber with just thumb pressure but another one required a slight bump, after closing to slide against the case head.

Just my observation.
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Old 10-02-2010, 19:13   #127
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This is not unusual. Many pistols balk at this. Just one example: 1911 shooters know it's a bad idea to drop the slide on a singly-loaded round and cause the extractor to jump the cartridge rim. It was not designed to do this . The cartridge rim comes up under the extractor as it feeds from the magazine. Personally, just as a matter of practice, I would never do this with any semi-auto.
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Old 10-02-2010, 19:39   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
I can't believe that the impact of the ramped nose of the extractor against the rim of the cartridge would be enough to damage either. The extractor is clearly designed so that the rim of the incoming caartridge will slide up underneath it in the normal rechambering process. It is also clearly designed so that it will cam over the rim of a cartridge which is already in the chamber and I know an instructor who believes he must have done this several thousand times with the same G19 in the process of demonstrating misfeeds. His extractor is still the original one.

This does not mean that extractors cannot break but I doubt that they break for this reason.

English
I agree with the point English is making here, it looks like the ramp on the chamber side of the Glock extractor should ride over the case rim. It just seems like it doesn't want to work that way though. It may work better if the bevel were cut at a more shallow angle.

I'm gonna need to disagree about the 1911. Their little thin, beveled and polished extractors will ride over a chambered round, without any problem. I don't do that, though and it's not a particularly good idea to load a 1911 that way. Any pistol that is going to be issued to an army needs to be foolproof. The 1911 never had a reputation for breaking extractors, because of the design.
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Old 10-02-2010, 19:49   #129
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Originally Posted by AustinTx View Post
I agree with the point English is making here, it looks like the ramp on the chamber side of the Glock extractor should ride over the case rim. It just seems like it doesn't want to work that way though. It may work better if the bevel were cut at a more shallow angle.

I'm gonna need to disagree about the 1911. Their little thin, beveled and polished extractors will ride over a chambered round, without any problem. I don't do that, though and it's not a particularly good idea to load a 1911 that way. Any pistol that is going to be issued to an army needs to be foolproof. The 1911 never had a reputation for breaking extractors, because of the design.
Well, I've been shooting 1911s for 40 years and all I can tell you is no really knowledgeable 1911 aficianado will do this. It is absolutely not designed to do it, it definitely will damage the extractor if done repeatedly, and you will eventually begin having FTEs. You'll ruin the extractor's tuning and risk breaking/chipping the hook. It was, BTW, a good way to get chewed out at Gunsight, at least when Jeff Cooper was still in charge. It was one of the things they instructed us not to do... with any pistol (not just 1911s).
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Old 10-03-2010, 01:37   #130
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Originally Posted by TxGun View Post
Well, I've been shooting 1911s for 40 years and all I can tell you is no really knowledgeable 1911 aficianado will do this. It is absolutely not designed to do it, it definitely will damage the extractor if done repeatedly, and you will eventually begin having FTEs. You'll ruin the extractor's tuning and risk breaking/chipping the hook. It was, BTW, a good way to get chewed out at Gunsight, at least when Jeff Cooper was still in charge. It was one of the things they instructed us not to do... with any pistol (not just 1911s).
Absolutely true. I have tuned quite a few extractors for folks that did not follow this advice.
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Old 10-03-2010, 02:30   #131
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Originally Posted by TxGun View Post
This is not unusual. Many pistols balk at this. Just one example: 1911 shooters know it's a bad idea to drop the slide on a singly-loaded round and cause the extractor to jump the cartridge rim. It was not designed to do this . The cartridge rim comes up under the extractor as it feeds from the magazine. Personally, just as a matter of practice, I would never do this with any semi-auto.
I agree and will add is there really any good reason besides a class three malfunction where a fired case doesn't extract where one would want to do this.
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:15   #132
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Well, I've been shooting 1911s for 40 years and all I can tell you is no really knowledgeable 1911 aficianado will do this......
I have no doubt of the truth of your statement, but to what extent is that knowledge based on empirical evidence as opposed to something that some said seemed likely that was repeated by more and more people?

Wriggly's statement above seems likely to be about 1911s since Glock extractors are not tuned. It indicates that 1911 extractors chip often enough to be noteworthy, but is there any substantial link to that damage being caused by dropping the slide on a loaded chamber or is it just thought that it is?

I can see that a mis-fitted extractor, where that is possible, or one that is out of spec, or a pistol which has a notch along side the chamber for the extractor to fit into could result in an impact between extractor and barrel face which could chip the extractor. That is very differeing from an impact on the relatively soft brass of a cartridge against the camming ramp of the extractor.

Here the mass of the extractor is negligible and the spring pressure holding it in the closed position is so low that it can be moved with a finger nail. This does damage the finger nail but it is really not much resistance! It seems to me that if this can damage an extractor there is a fault with its hardening, its design or its manufacture. If that is the case, I would sooner stress it enough to make it fail, find out why and fix it so that it does not fail again.

As AustinTx said, any pistol intended to be issued to an army should be foolproof. An extractor which fails with such slight provokation does not meet that criterion.

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Old 10-03-2010, 09:30   #133
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I agree and will add is there really any good reason besides a class three malfunction where a fired case doesn't extract where one would want to do this.
It is rather important that a type three malfunction can be cleared without breaking the pistol.

Apart from that the only other significant reason I can think of is as a means to top up the pistol with a round in the chamber before inserting a full magazine in a way that eliminates the possibility of bullet setback and a lot of administrative fiddling with magazines and part used rounds. In that case I would let the slide forward gently and push it to so that the extractor engages. I would then partly withdraw the slide to make sure that engagement had taken place before inserting the full magazine.

In the really rare situation that you have used up all your loaded magazines and have run dry but have loose rounds it is far quicker for one desperate shot to tip the pistol to the left, drop in a loose round, tilt it downward, drop the slide (you do need to use the slide release lever but might need to rack as well depending on the pistol), aim and fire. In this I speak from the experience of having practiced it. The alternative of removing the magazine, holstering the pistol or holding it in your teeth, putting rounds in the magazine then reloading as normal does not work well against the clock even when you have a bench to save your teeth.

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Old 10-03-2010, 11:55   #134
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[QUOTE=English;16083439As AustinTx said, any pistol intended to be issued to an army should be foolproof. An extractor which fails with such slight provokation does not meet that criterion.

English[/QUOTE]

Really? Do you guys know anything about the 1911 design, other than what you think it should be? This appears to be reality vs. the theoretical. 1) No pistol is completely foolproof, military issue or not, and that includes the 1911, and the Berreta 92. 2) Proper training is the vehicle that teaches you what to do, and perhaps more importantly, what not to do. 3) Arguing about this is futile, so what I'm going to suggest to you is: send an inquiry to any reputable 1911 gunsmith and ask him if dropping the slide on a chambered round is a good idea. Go ahead. See what response you get back. Might you get away with it a few times? Sure. Is it damaging, especially if done routinely? Absolutely! And again, while some designs might handle it beter than others, I doubt any manufacturer of any semi-auto pistol would encourage you to do this with their product. If you think they would...ask them. They all are designed such that the cartridge rim comes up under the extractor during the normal feeding cycle, and the extractor hook is not meant to jump the cartridge rim as SOP.
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Old 10-03-2010, 12:26   #135
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Really? Do you guys know anything about the 1911 design, other than what you think it should be? 1) No pistol is completely foolproof, military issue or not, and that includes the 1911, and the Berreta 92. 2) Proper training is the vehicle that teaches you what to do, and perhaps more importantly, what not to do. 3) Tell you what, arguing with someone who has no practical knowledge is futile, so what I'm going to suggest to you is: send an inquiry to any reputable 1911 gunsmith and ask him if dropping the slide on a chambered round is a good idea. Go ahead. See what response you get back. Might you get away with it a few times? Sure. Is it damaging, especially if done routinely? Absolutely! Jeez...obvious 1911 novices telling us how the 1911 should be designed.
Well, I do have one and I have had one or another over more than 20 years. I used to think it was the ultimate combat pistol but nowadays I prefer Glocks.

None of that matters very much relative to your rather arrogant post. Let me try to put it another way. Designing a latch that will pass over the rim of a rimless cartridge as the slide closes is not a great feat of mechanical engineering. Designing one that does not break as it does so should not be something at a very high level of design skill. Can you explain why this is so difficult if the situation is as you claim it to be? I actually have quite a lot of practical knowledge. Is your problem that you don't have much theoretical knowledge and so you can't answer the actual question?

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