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Old 12-25-2010, 07:07   #126
Captains1911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC Drew View Post
B-i-n-g-o.





Sonny, of the 100 + responses in this thread with over 20 unique contributants, how many of these 20 peope do you think can shoot a 1" group at 10 yards?

And, do you think the results are going to matter much at 10 yards shooting a 1" dot using #2, or #3?

The point is, we've been fluffering about a point that is relatively meaningless when we take into consideration
  • the design of the gun
  • it's intended use
  • skills set of the majority of operators (users) under a typical bell curve
  • the standard deviation in POI when looking at "x" number of Glocks.
Which is why some of us have maintained from the onset that #1, 2 or 3 is not.

If I were to take any of my (in my hands) most accurate Glocks (G37, G24, G17L, G35 with KKM 357SIG barrel) and shoot them at 10 yards using #2 or #3, the results would be at the most 1/0th of an inch different. At 15 yards (45 feet), the results would still be 1/10th of an inch different - just a about twice the difference between the top of my sight and the center of the dot on my sight.

At 25 yards (if I had a 25 yard range I would try it), you are now DEEP into the area of where the limits of accuracy of the pistol are greater that quibbling over #2 or #3. Even if you locked the gun into sturdy rest, you could not, and would not get results (at 25 yards) that are conclusive for anything.

Beyond 25 yards the ballistics of handgun rounds in Glock length barrels start behaving in ways not conducive for testing this type of detail (typically bullet drop).

I think I am now done on the subject, except I am genuinely curious - as a student who believes learning is continuous - to hear from Captains1911 as to where he received instruction on that #2 is the correct hold.

I am not trying to ram home a point. I am merely trying to find out where this information emanated from, and who/how/why they arrived at this conclusion (ie, the logic behind this).

'Drew
I see your point. When i first got into shooting about 10 years ago, everybody who "knew" more than me preached Image #2. Same thing the instructors taught in the beginner handgun class I took.

That is the extent of my formal training. I do shoot about twice a month, not always pistols, but latley when I shoot my defensive pistols (glocks) I have been practicing more on point and shot double taps at about 5 yards, not shooting for tight groups.

However, when I do take my time, I can achieve 1"-2" groups at abouit 10 yards, with either my G19 or G23, and cheap wally world ammo. This is consistent with all my pistols using Image #2, but I have never really tried the other sight pictures, so it only makes sense in my mind that if I did use one of the others my bullet impacts would not be center bulls eye.

The next time out I will try using sight pictures #1 and #3 and see how much my results vary.

Merry Xmas
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Old 12-25-2010, 07:22   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captains1911 View Post
I see your point. When i first got into shooting about 10 years ago, everybody who "knew" more than me preached Image #2. Same thing the instructors taught in the beginner handgun class I took.

That is the extent of my formal training. I do shoot about twice a month, not always pistols, but latley when I shoot my defensive pistols (glocks) I have been practicing more on point and shot double taps at about 5 yards, not shooting for tight groups.

However, when I do take my time, I can achieve 1"-2" groups at abouit 10 yards, with either my G19 or G23, and cheap wally world ammo. This is consistent with all my pistols using Image #2, but I have never really tried the other sight pictures, so it only makes sense in my mind that if I did use one of the others my bullet impacts would not be center bulls eye.

The next time out I will try using sight pictures #1 and #3 and see how much my results vary.

Merry Xmas
Thank you for taking the time to respond. If you do get a chance, yes please, do go out and shoot using 2 or 3 (I can't speak for #1, but what the heck, give it a ...shot. )

I can achieve (consistently, day in, day out) 2" groups at 51ft (max distance at my range) and on good days 1"-1.5" groups at that distance with generic practice ammo (and sometimes less, but that's purely luck). The picture of the target I posted (of the post it note) was with stock Glock sights, placing the dot of the front sight on the center of the post it note, with the front sight being level with the rears, and with equal spacing between the gaps in the sights. I would have assumed that since page one the results would speak for themselves, but no one asked the question (of how did I manage to hit the target at 17 yards using a hold that is supposed to be "incorrect".

Enjoy your holidays. I am now elbow deep in dealing with a rodent infestation.

'Drew
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Old 12-25-2010, 08:30   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentbiker View Post
At 25yds the trajectory of the bullet rises to the POA. Beyond 25yds, the POI continues to rise above the POA (out to normal pistol distances) and raising the sight to put the dot on the target would just make it worse.
In a six-page thread with 127 posts...I'm quite surprised that no one jumped on bentbiker's statement regarding "trajectory". Come on guys...even though it's Christmas...get your head in the game.
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Old 12-25-2010, 08:41   #129
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Howdy,

After reading this thread for days now, I'm still surprised at the number of people that have posted in this thread that #X is the one and only correct sight picture to use but they have never had any type of formal training.

Formal training does not mean some 24yo fat kid that works the gun count at Academy Sports that has never been in the military or has worked as a LEO but he did shoot IDPA once.

Paul
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Old 12-25-2010, 15:21   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlestonG26 View Post
In a six-page thread with 127 posts...I'm quite surprised that no one jumped on bentbiker's statement regarding "trajectory". Come on guys...even though it's Christmas...get your head in the game.
I would hope that most understand that to mean "where the sight-line (sights) and the bullet trajectory intersect. There is that little thing called gravity, that does not generally allow things already subject to gravitational force to start inexplicably rising. (Of course, things lighter than air don't count).


'Drew
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Old 12-25-2010, 16:44   #131
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Originally Posted by bentbiker View Post
Out to 25yds, Glocks shoot low -- at the muzzle it is low by the distance between the top of the front sight and the bore axis. Putting the dot on the target raises the POI, so these offset each other somewhat. At 25yds the trajectory of the bullet rises to the POA. Beyond 25yds, the POI continues to rise above the POA (out to normal pistol distances) and raising the sight to put the dot on the target would just make it worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlestonG26 View Post
In a six-page thread with 127 posts...I'm quite surprised that no one jumped on bentbiker's statement regarding "trajectory". Come on guys...even though it's Christmas...get your head in the game.
Anytime your sights or aiming device is mounted above the bore-axis, it is necessary for the bore-axis/bullet-trajectory to rise relative to the aim line, or the two will never meet. A laser can be sighted in with a constant offset (parallel lines), but Glock sights certainly aren't done that way. The effect of gravity is insignificant in the sighting-in of combat pistols. The trajectory continues to rise relative to the line of sight until well past any practical sighting-in distances.

With a rail-mounted laser, the lines are reversed and the POA is below the bore-axis out to the sweet spot at which the two come together.

It is really important to grasp these concepts to be successful at weapons sighting. Moving the sweet spot in from 25yds can have serious ramifications re shots out past 25 yds. For example, if you sight-in for a distance of 5 yds, and then shoot at 50 yds, your POI will be high by about 5". Sitting down with a pencil and paper might help you picture how this works.
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Old 12-25-2010, 19:32   #132
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I didn't know bullets rise and then drop like on an arc. I thought they went straight out and then gradually dropped. Any idea how far out a .45 acp bullet goes before it starts its drop?
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Old 12-25-2010, 19:45   #133
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Here's a trajectory table that might give you a feel: http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm .
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Old 12-25-2010, 20:09   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pm666 View Post
I didn't know bullets rise and then drop like on an arc. I thought they went straight out and then gradually dropped. Any idea how far out a .45 acp bullet goes before it starts its drop?
Take a look at the second graph on this page, it's for a 185 gr .45 GAP, but should be about the same as a .45 ACP with the same bullet.
http://www.buytelescopes.com/Product...box-of-50.aspx

Here's an illustration of how it works.....
The SHOT ShowCase
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Old 12-29-2010, 21:34   #135
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None of those three looked right to me until I tilted the laptop 90-135 degrees and moved it a foot above my head.

Whatever works though.
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Old 12-31-2010, 15:06   #136
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Originally Posted by Rman 585 View Post
Can anyone tell me what is the BEST Glock is????
What should i use to clean my Glock
Is gen 4 better than gen3......................LOL
Model 27
Tetra Gun products
Gen 3 Olive Drab
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Old 12-31-2010, 16:28   #137
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Exactly.
I rarely even shoot a new Glock with the sights the factory provides. I often have a new sight set ordered before I take the new gun to the range
Same here. I had Glock Night Sights installed on each Glock, prior to taking possession of them.
So, Am I to assume that picture #2 is for GNS?
That is what we use and we are fairly accurate at 15 yards.
We are still working to improve. I plan on ordering TR Graham's Match Grade Slide Lock for each.
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Old 01-01-2011, 09:32   #138
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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_113853238/
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Old 01-01-2011, 10:40   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pizza_pablo View Post
So, Am I to assume that picture #2 is for GNS?
It is certainly the one to start with, but it depends on where the bullets land when you shoot. If they're not where you want them, you have to do one of three things:

1. Improve your shooting skill (most likely a trigger control improvement).

2. Make a sight change (sight the gun in).

or,

3. Aim at a different spot ('Kentucky windage').


Inside 15 yards, and depending on the size of your target, it makes little difference with a Glock. If you're shooting at a 1 inch circle, a change may be needed, if you're happy hitting a human sized target somewhere towards the middle, you shouldn't have any problem.
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Old 01-03-2011, 14:10   #140
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Thanks, Butch!
I'll say it again, MAN, I love this site!
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Old 01-03-2011, 17:20   #141
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Sighting in the picture.

I'm just a newbie with very little handgun experience, but I'm a former geometry teacher.

I think we can all see that #1 and #2 are using the same sight references (the tops of the front and rear sights) so the line of sight raises from #1 to #2. For the shot in #1 and the shot in #2 to hit in the same place, one of the sights is going to have to be adjusted, right?

I'm told people use "Pumpkin on a post" (#1) for competetion, so they get their pistols sighted in to work that way (at a limited range, I might add.) Also the size of the "pumpkin" will have a lot to do with where the bullet hits it, correct?

#2 & #3 are using different reference points, and the respective lines of sight are parallel 1/16" apart. Can you adjust your sight for that difference in elevation even at 7 feet? You just compensate based on your experience and practice, right again?

My point? A choice between 2 & 3 should be a matter of personal preference, while choosing #1 would be more practical if you always use a specific target at a specific range.

Now, before any of you decide to flame me if you disagree, think about the ballistics and geometry. I'm not saying one sight picture is right and the other wrong, but this is how it works. If a ballistics "expert" out there understands this different than I seemed to describe it, let me know.

But it would seem to me that you'd have to adjust your sights for either #1 or (#2 & 3) and you couldn't have it both ways.....

(If I've erred in this, it's more likely to be my explanation than my understanding, but hey, there may be some stinkin' thinkin' involved as well!)
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Old 01-03-2011, 17:50   #142
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Just noticed Butch's and Bentbiker's posts above. I was trying to say the same thing, almost.

But in response to the arc rising, that's only because the line of sight is angled down to intersect with the bullet's path at a specific range.

Physics 101: Assume a perfectly horizontal surface. (Not the curvature of the earth.)

Fire a projectile parallel to that surface and drop one from the same spot at the same instant. Regardless of the forward momentum of the first, gravity works on them both the same. They will hit the "ground" at exactly the same time. The only way the bullet will ever rise, is if the bore axis is angled upward. The fired bullet begins dropping (from it's initial line of travel) at the same speed as the one that was dropped. (It's just that it's also travelling forward as well.)

"Bore sighting" adjusts the sights so that the line of sight intersects the bore axis at a specific distance.
"Sighting-in" adjusts the sights so that the line of sight intersects the bullet's anticipated path (trajectory) at a specific distance. (See Butch's diagram.)

(And YES, with 140-some previous posts, I've probably overlooked somebody's analysis that said the same thing - SORRY!)
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