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Old 04-10-2011, 16:02   #1
Dukeboy01
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Why do elected officials in Ohio hate the police so much?

Seriously, what did you guys do to them? Between stuff like this and the damage done to your collective bargaining rights it looks like they are out to get you.

http://www.policeone.com/police-admi...off-duty-jobs/

$5.00 an hour for an admin fee is nonsense. I can see how the Cincy FOP left themselves vulnerable to such shenanigans by

1. Having the PD schedule the off- duty gigs
and
2. Capping the hourly wage amount by contract.

Still, the city claiming that much for every hour worked is ridiculous.
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Old 04-10-2011, 16:55   #2
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Honestly, I'm done talking about it. I was literally ANGRY for three weeks solid thinking about all this, reading viewer response on news sites, and *****ing at the station about it.

I've gotten into several arguments over the Internet with mutt cops who basically tell me we deserve what we're getting, I just can't stomach it anymore.
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Old 04-10-2011, 16:59   #3
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Old 04-10-2011, 17:04   #4
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I'm honestly concerned that the referendum to our lost collective bargaining rights will lose in November.. Perhaps I'm just being pessimistic, who knows.. Either way the republican party (which I used to be a proud member of) has publicly stated that they want Ohio to be a right to work state.
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Old 04-10-2011, 17:05   #5
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Come to Texas.... We're hiring.
My wife will never move, besides I'm looking at Vermont and Montana, it's my understanding that they have the ability to secede from the union if things get too bad (supposedly written into their state contract..)
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Old 04-10-2011, 17:07   #6
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Old 04-10-2011, 17:55   #7
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Meh.

Mike and some others will hate me ...

...but I'm here to tell you, I work a non-union police job and I make $30,000 a year.

I work a second part time gig (for the state police) to make ends meet... and at that gig I'm made to pay the FOP $50 / month, but they refuse to provide me with any union services because I'm a part time employee. So I have to pay in, but I get nothing for it. So in that case, the union is "extorting" me.

$31 / hour minus $5 an hour is still way the **** more than I make at either job, even at an overtime rate at either job. So I have a hard time feeling sorry for poor CPD; and I guarantee that in this economy publicly crying about "only" making $26 / hr to stand around at Kroger and flirt with the cashiers is going to piss off a lot of the electorate who work hard ass jobs for near minimum wage.

This article doesn't specifically report on it, but there is a sense of entitlement that a lot of cops have that I am sick of, and the general public is sick of. We can be our own worst enemy with this sort of thing.

I'm not gonna say that higher paid coppers don;t deserve what they make, but crying about it in a public forum isn't going to win any sympathy from most people.
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Old 04-10-2011, 18:09   #8
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Once the unions are gone, your 30k/year job will become a 20k/year job.

The fact of the matter is, cities have been managing their budgets for years and years. Layoffs, pay freezes, furloughs, hiring freezes, and many other occasions where the unions and the cities work together. To say that any public union has bankrupted any local municipality is a plea to ignorance. Local governments, even state governments, cannot print money the way the federal government can, so if a municipality can't afford something, it doesn't happen, no matter how strong the union is.

To say your union dues go for nothing is nothing more than rhetoric. You work in a situation that has certain benefits and safety factors built in that were negotiated by your union. You are not afforded some of the benefits given to full time officers, and I disagree with that, but the truth is you are benefiting from working in a union shop whether you care to admit it or not.

I recognize that you are upset the union didn't/counldnt do more for you in your previous situation, and I think it has clouded your judgement on this.

You want to ***** about how much Columbus police make? How about how much I make? The truth of the matter is that we make the money we make because our respective cities can afford to pay us at these rates (refer to my above comment that cities can't pay more than they can afford). Now, thanks to changes in state laws, our cities are forced to give us massive pay cuts (20% in my case). Where exactly do you think this money is going?? Into your department?? Into public works?? Not likely, realistically many cities across the state are going to find themselves sitting on huge bank accounts and no one is going to really know what to do with all this money.

Hey.. You called me out..

Look at that, I'm angry again.
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Old 04-10-2011, 19:52   #9
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You want to ***** about how much Columbus police make?
I knew you'd bite.

FYI my reference to "CPD" was Cincinnati, not Columbus; from the article the OP posted.

Otherwise I don't completely disagree with you except you missed the point of my post... the union publicly griping about cops getting lower pay pisses off those in the public who get much crappier pay AND who pay the salaries of said cops.

Oh and my reference to my $30k a year was intended to demonstrate how little I (and a lot of other non-union cops) make compared to some agencies... when I do the same job. More of one, actually. But then, I'd do this job for free, so why am I even beetching?
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Old 04-10-2011, 19:59   #10
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Old 04-10-2011, 20:12   #11
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I'm, with FiremmanMike on this one. Show me a right to work state, and I will show you a lower salary.

Now, I don't make near the wage, or benefits of any of the larger Ohio cities, and near the bottom of my county's sister agencies. Our contract is expired, and every time it ends up going to binding arbitration with a victory for labor.

I can also guaranty that any dollars saved on the labor will only cause the best officers to leave as they have continuously for the ten plus years I have worked there, and will still be spent by increasing the management paycheck. This is why when they were crying layoff, money was suddenly "found" when a forensic accountant was hired, but before they records were turned over.

BTW, I have always been for some sort of measurement of production, but this also assumes that the evaluations are done in a fair and consistent manner. This is something that SB 5 also assumes.

It is purely a shell game.
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Old 04-10-2011, 20:23   #12
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I knew you'd bite.

FYI my reference to "CPD" was Cincinnati, not Columbus; from the article the OP posted.

Otherwise I don't completely disagree with you except you missed the point of my post... the union publicly griping about cops getting lower pay pisses off those in the public who get much crappier pay AND who pay the salaries of said cops.

Oh and my reference to my $30k a year was intended to demonstrate how little I (and a lot of other non-union cops) make compared to some agencies... when I do the same job. More of one, actually. But then, I'd do this job for free, so why am I even beetching?
Is there a disparity between agencies, absolutely! Do I agree with it, no. This is a major problem with this state, and a particular problem that SB 5 will create for smaller departments.

The smaller departments already have more expensive insurance, and get paid less, so how will they be able to afford it when the premium goes up, by law? How will these smaller agencies be able to retain people when those people can make more by trucking? The answer is they will not, and they will begin to fold.

One of three things will happen, a greater demand on County Deputies, an expanded Highway Patrol, or a mix of both.
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Old 04-10-2011, 20:35   #13
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I'm, with FiremmanMike on this one. Show me a right to work state, and I will show you a lower salary.
Texas is a right to work state. I am currently making $37k a year before OT. If the year continues to rock along at the rate it is going I will probably hit $40k. My agency is not at the top of the pay scale as far as the area is concerned.

APD pays a little less while in the academy but you will be over $50k with in a couple of years. Round Rock PD starts at $50k. The agencies around Houston and Dallas are in the mid to high 40s to start. For lower paying agencies as a rule they are the rural areas with almost no population base.

Round Rock, Austin, San Antonio and a few others have collective bargaining but for the most part it is non-existant.

FWIW I started in a small SO making $24,700 a year with no OT authorized. We had to take everything as Comp-Time. They paid pretty good for a small town.
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Old 04-10-2011, 20:56   #14
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Texas is a right to work state. I am currently making $37k a year before OT. If the year continues to rock along at the rate it is going I will probably hit $40k. My agency is not at the top of the pay scale as far as the area is concerned.

APD pays a little less while in the academy but you will be over $50k with in a couple of years. Round Rock PD starts at $50k. The agencies around Houston and Dallas are in the mid to high 40s to start. For lower paying agencies as a rule they are the rural areas with almost no population base.

Round Rock, Austin, San Antonio and a few others have collective bargaining but for the most part it is non-existant.

FWIW I started in a small SO making $24,700 a year with no OT authorized. We had to take everything as Comp-Time. They paid pretty good for a small town.
Our top out is 47k, but I work mad OT too. Up until the last few years, much of it was mandatory to maintain minimum staffing... it is cheaper to pay OT, than to hire and train new staff, and the agency could never keep up with turnover.

BTW, forcing compensatory time is a Fair Labor Standards Act violation. The agency could prevent you from exceeding 40 hours/week, but it is your choice on how you receive your OT wage if the employer offers comp time.

As I mentioned earlier, the disparity in wage is terrible. The first full time commission I was offered paid 12.5/year, 11.5/year if I wanted medical.
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Old 04-11-2011, 06:48   #15
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We're relatively new to the collective bargaining game. We've only had it since 2004, when it was granted to public safety employees in Lexington and Louisville. Fun fact: It was signed into law by a Republican governor.

I like to think that we have the opportunity to avoid a lot of the mistakes other unions have made over the years. The last thing we need is to end up like the UAW.

There has definitely been some overreach by unions, particularly other public employee unions like the teachers. They've definitely tied themselves too closely to the Democrats over the years and a lot of this union busting legislation is political pay- back by the GOP, pure and simple. I think cops and firefighters are being sucked into that tornado.

It doesn't help that Obama and the last Congress have run up the tab as far and as fast as they did which has given rise to the Tea Party. (Bush ran it up as well, but not like Obama.) I'll be the first to say that government has done too much for too long, but there are some things that government has to do, like provide for the rule of law. Whatever government undertakes to do, they should do well. That includes compensating the people who undertake the work.

I'll be the first to agree that the smart thing to do is keep a low profile and complaining about pay in public during these tough times is in poor taste, to say the least. But the amount of money CPD officers are being hit for an "administration fee" is nuts. $4.90 out of $31.00 an hour is almost 16%. No way is that equitable to the man hours spent by the city to coordinate the off- duty assignments.

What's ironic is that CPD just finished a round of negotiations and got a new contract. Why wasn't this on the table then? Instead it looks like the city searched for and found a way to do an end run around the contract and stick it to their employees. Good faith is required on both sides and the city is violating that.
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Old 04-11-2011, 09:38   #16
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I'm in a right to work state. Our wages are relatively good (even though they have reneged on the promised raises the last 3 years). Our off duty is $27 an hour base and an individual employer can use a higher wage if they want. All off duty is run through the department with a job site coordinator. Currently the coordinator does all the legwork (except approving the jobsite initially) and gets the coordinator fee, which is paid for by the business. We believe the department is going to try to take over all the coordinating and thus get that fee. But we don't pay an admin fee to the city or department. If they tried it, I imagine there would be major problems.
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:08   #17
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What's ironic is that CPD just finished a round of negotiations and got a new contract. Why wasn't this on the table then? Instead it looks like the city searched for and found a way to do an end run around the contract and stick it to their employees. Good faith is required on both sides and the city is violating that.
This touches another point of contention I have, while I can completely understand economic hardship, it seems very rare that any municipality does. It is exactly like budgeting monthly bills, if the electric bill is high, you figure out why, and adjust spending.

Instead, the emphasis seems to be to lower the priority to public safety, and redirect it to pet projects with a return return that risks stability.

In this sense, public safety is being treated exactly as the private sector because labor costs are variable. However, by doing this it does not appear to improve areas as far as living conditions, and potential for development.
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Old 04-11-2011, 13:36   #18
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We're relatively new to the collective bargaining game. We've only had it since 2004, when it was granted to public safety employees in Lexington and Louisville. Fun fact: It was signed into law by a Republican governor.

I like to think that we have the opportunity to avoid a lot of the mistakes other unions have made over the years. The last thing we need is to end up like the UAW.

There has definitely been some overreach by unions, particularly other public employee unions like the teachers. They've definitely tied themselves too closely to the Democrats over the years and a lot of this union busting legislation is political pay- back by the GOP, pure and simple. I think cops and firefighters are being sucked into that tornado.

It doesn't help that Obama and the last Congress have run up the tab as far and as fast as they did which has given rise to the Tea Party. (Bush ran it up as well, but not like Obama.) I'll be the first to say that government has done too much for too long, but there are some things that government has to do, like provide for the rule of law. Whatever government undertakes to do, they should do well. That includes compensating the people who undertake the work.

I'll be the first to agree that the smart thing to do is keep a low profile and complaining about pay in public during these tough times is in poor taste, to say the least. But the amount of money CPD officers are being hit for an "administration fee" is nuts. $4.90 out of $31.00 an hour is almost 16%. No way is that equitable to the man hours spent by the city to coordinate the off- duty assignments.

What's ironic is that CPD just finished a round of negotiations and got a new contract. Why wasn't this on the table then? Instead it looks like the city searched for and found a way to do an end run around the contract and stick it to their employees. Good faith is required on both sides and the city is violating that.

Its not about Cops and Firefighters unions unfortunately they are caught up in the residual actions of other public sector unions.
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Old 04-11-2011, 16:30   #19
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Oh and my reference to my $30k a year was intended to demonstrate how little I (and a lot of other non-union cops) make compared to some agencies... when I do the same job. More of one, actually. But then, I'd do this job for free, so why am I even beetching?
If you aren't happy about your pay or benifits don't complain about the other depts who are paid well join them.
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Old 04-11-2011, 16:43   #20
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If you aren't happy about your pay or benifits don't complain about the other depts who are paid well join them.
Yeah, good call, I'll go sign up right now.
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