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Old 04-11-2011, 18:33   #21
rdrkt
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Originally Posted by MeefZah View Post
Yeah, good call, I'll go sign up right now.
You are the one on the soap box. My dept does more work and is lower paid then all of the surrounding counties by a large margin. I find it unfair but its up to me to make the change.
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Old 04-11-2011, 19:44   #22
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The reason for having a public safety union is to be able to advocate for wage, benefits, maintain due process, and to counter unfair labor practices. Having people pay their fair share is a necessary part of paying for attorneys, and other costs to accomplish those missions regardless of whether the employee wants/is able to join the union.

IMHO, MeefZah does have a beef when the union will not represent him because he is not a full time employee. While his union is taking his fair share, they are not satisfying any of the objectives.

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...but I'm here to tell you, I work a non-union police job and I make $30,000 a year.

I work a second part time gig (for the state police) to make ends meet... and at that gig I'm made to pay the FOP $50 / month, but they refuse to provide me with any union services because I'm a part time employee. So I have to pay in, but I get nothing for it. So in that case, the union is "extorting" me.
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Old 04-11-2011, 19:46   #23
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Originally Posted by rdrkt View Post
You are the one on the soap box. My dept does more work and is lower paid then all of the surrounding counties by a large margin. I find it unfair but its up to me to make the change.
I'm not on a soap box. I was replying to another post with some personal observations. In the portion of my first post that you quoted, did you read the last sentence I wrote?
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Old 04-11-2011, 19:55   #24
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Originally Posted by razdog76 View Post

IMHO, MeefZah does have a beef when the union will not represent him because he is not a full time employee. While his union is taking his fair share, they are not satisfying any of the objectives.
Thanks.

The thing is, I pay the dues without complaint. I mean, I griped on here, but that was because of the extreme irony of the FOP saying "it isn't fair that the city of Cincinnati takes $5 / hr from these officers and gives them nothing in return" while simultaneously saying "it's perfectly fair for the FOP to take $50 / month from MeefZah and every other part time state cop and give them nothing in return". I mean, WTF?

As far as Mike's comment that there are unseen benefits to working in a union shop, okay, under ordinary circumstances I'd give him that. But in this case the only benefit I get is the little placard to go on my license plate (cool, man!) and the hourly rate of pay which was negotiated with the union. Oh, and I have to buy the placard. I am an "ETA" employee meaning I am essentially always on probation, thus making my employment forever at-will. I have no due process. I have no raises - my base rate of pay is what I will make, forever, as an ETA; unless there are cost-of living raises. Hell, the union even specifically negotiated that ETA's don't get bulletproof vests. You have to be full time to get one. Now, having said that, the state hires their full time from their ETA, so for most guys, it's a temporary thing. In my case, I only want it as a part time job, so I really get nothing out of the deal.
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Old 04-12-2011, 05:41   #25
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I can also guaranty that any dollars saved on the labor will only cause the best officers to leave as they have continuously for the ten plus years I have worked there, and will still be spent by increasing the management paycheck. This is why when they were crying layoff, money was suddenly "found" when a forensic accountant was hired, but before they records were turned over.

BTW, I have always been for some sort of measurement of production, but this also assumes that the evaluations are done in a fair and consistent manner. This is something that SB 5 also assumes.

It is purely a shell game.
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Thanks.

The thing is, I pay the dues without complaint. I mean, I griped on here, but that was because of the extreme irony of the FOP saying "it isn't fair that the city of Cincinnati takes $5 / hr from these officers and gives them nothing in return" while simultaneously saying "it's perfectly fair for the FOP to take $50 / month from MeefZah and every other part time state cop and give them nothing in return". I mean, WTF?

As far as Mike's comment that there are unseen benefits to working in a union shop, okay, under ordinary circumstances I'd give him that. But in this case the only benefit I get is the little placard to go on my license plate (cool, man!) and the hourly rate of pay which was negotiated with the union. Oh, and I have to buy the placard. I am an "ETA" employee meaning I am essentially always on probation, thus making my employment forever at-will. I have no due process. I have no raises - my base rate of pay is what I will make, forever, as an ETA; unless there are cost-of living raises. Hell, the union even specifically negotiated that ETA's don't get bulletproof vests. You have to be full time to get one. Now, having said that, the state hires their full time from their ETA, so for most guys, it's a temporary thing. In my case, I only want it as a part time job, so I really get nothing out of the deal.
I see how you keep trying to draw me back into this.. fine..

I would argue that your position exists in and of itself solely because of the union. I'm certain the state of Ohio could hire securitas to come in and do it for $8/hr. The only union benefit you miss out on is attorney representation for your own mishaps, but pretty much every other union benefit out there is afforded to you, including pension and past practices (so really, you are indirectly afforded a union attorney who has argued previous cases that will now benefit you).

This is why I think we'll lose referendum, because even amongst the ranks of the brotherhood we have *****ers standing up in the balcony saying "hey you guys don't help me enough, I hope you all enjoy your paycut."


I'll end with this. It is certainly obvious that you couldn't care less about our struggle, because you feel you've been wronged by the union in the past. But how's about you shut your mouth and keep it to yourself. As you sit on your soapbox and try and perpetuate your weak points, many of us across Ohio are trying to figure out how to tell our children that daddy is going to be making a lot less money real soon.
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Old 04-12-2011, 06:17   #26
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It is certainly obvious that you couldn't care less about our struggle, because you feel you've been wronged by the union in the past.
I'm not sure where you keep coming up with this, I was not union at MG. Ironically, had I been, I'm sure none of that garbage would have happened. I don't feel "wronged" by the union. They are / were uninvolved with that issue.

As far as rate of pay at the state, for part time, it is still the second lowest paid agency in the metro area (Columbus State CC PD gets that honor, at $14.90 / hr to start. Incidentally most armed security in the metro area is around $14.00 / hr non union and unarmed court security starts at $15.90 / hr non-union). Full time at the state top pay is on par with a lot of other agencies, though. And yes, you are correct in a few points, I do pay into PERS-LE; so that is a benefit I forgot. I also get sick days, forgot them too. However, all the "past practice" in the world can't help when the union agrees that a part time employee should be considered "at will" and can be dismissed at any time for any reason. As far as the union saving us from being replaced with security, okay; when security gets sworn and has arrest and investigative powers then maybe the union can stand up to protect the job for us coppers. I'm not sure how I'd feel about Wackenhut running a rape investigation, but the state is looking to save money so maybe it's in the cards.

Having said that, I think you are missing the points of my posts since your judgement is clouded. Just because someone isn't beating the war drum with you doesn't mean they hope you fail. I hope the referendum passes and I hope you make scads of money, the kind you can roll around naked in bed with. My posts have simply been intended to represent the irony of the union taking but not giving; the disparity between pay rates for guys who are essentially doing the same job in various regions of the state, with / without unions, and part / full time; and to point out that the public who makes $8 / hr doesn't like to hear about cops making $26 / hr complaining that they are underpaid.

I guess, if you are worried about making a whole lot less money, you can always take the other guy's awesome advice and go find another job. I think you can just sign up for any agency you want and you're in, automatically.
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:20   #27
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Quote:
Having said that, I think you are missing the points of my posts since your judgment is clouded. Just because someone isn't beating the war drum with you doesn't mean they hope you fail. I hope the referendum passes and I hope you make scads of money, the kind you can roll around naked in bed with. My posts have simply been intended to represent the irony of the union taking but not giving; the disparity between pay rates for guys who are essentially doing the same job in various regions of the state, with / without unions, and part / full time; and to point out that the public who makes $8 / hr doesn't like to hear about cops making $26 / hr complaining that they are underpaid.
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:28   #28
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Originally Posted by MeefZah View Post
and to point out that the public who makes $8 / hr doesn't like to hear about cops making $26 / hr complaining that they are underpaid.
No one who is making $8/hour has a job that requires the training and decision making that ours does, nor will their job carry the consequences that ours does for mistakes.
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Old 04-12-2011, 11:41   #29
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Cop Talk
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:05   #30
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No one who is making $8/hour has a job that requires the training and decision making that ours does, nor will their job carry the consequences that ours does for mistakes.
While I agree, try to convince them of that. And they vote.

FWIW when I started as a full time officer in August or 2005 I was making $11.89/hour.
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:57   #31
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No one who is making $8/hour has a job that requires the training and decision making that ours does, nor will their job carry the consequences that ours does for mistakes.
I barely made $11 an hour when I started and one of the small local PD's payed less than that. No collective bargaining in my state, only market forces.
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Old 04-12-2011, 14:40   #32
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No one who is making $8/hour has a job that requires the training and decision making that ours does, nor will their job carry the consequences that ours does for mistakes.
They do at small departments in Western Pennsylvania!!!
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Old 04-13-2011, 09:44   #33
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Well, our elected officials hate us too...

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/04/13/1...-off-city.html

Money quote:

Quote:
Save $5.6 million in police, fire and corrections collective bargaining contracts, plus $3.1 million through a variety of other means, including eliminating unscheduled overtime in the fire department and not filling vacancies.

"Our negotiations with unions just didn't adequately factor in the long-term financial health of the city," Gray said.

He also said there must be "permanent changes in the benefits" offered to future employees in those departments, otherwise, "we will never catch up."
A $5.6 million dollar cut split evenly between the PD and the FD would workout to a 10% pay cut acrosss the board. Not gonna happen. Which means layoffs, except he just cut our authorized strength from 595 positions to 535 by eliminating the 60 vacancies we have. A lieutenant told me that puts our officer to citizen ration at 1.78 officers per 1,000 citizens. In practice the mayor's office is pretty weak. . The council runs the show and I don't see them being willing to pull the trigger on layoffs of police or fire.

There's an awful lot of crap that he didn't touch at all. The 28 layoffs he proposed are low- level employees primarily in make- work jobs at city hall.
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Old 04-20-2011, 20:09   #34
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No one who is making $8/hour has a job that requires the training and decision making that ours does, nor will their job carry the consequences that ours does for mistakes.

I certainly hope your're only speaking of non LE...I started out in a sheet hole for $9.00/hr with no benefits. 39 hrs a week-you go over cause of a late arrest, it's on you. Start putting in pay slips for it and you'll find you're way out the back door. Granted, it was a stepping stone agency but the principal is the same.
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Old 04-21-2011, 00:04   #35
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No one who is making $8/hour has a job that requires the training and decision making that ours does, nor will their job carry the consequences that ours does for mistakes.
True.

But the $8 an hour person doesn't want to hear that nor do they care. They simply focus in on the dollar amount without considering any other factors.
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Old 04-26-2011, 06:52   #36
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Meh.

Mike and some others will hate me ...

...but I'm here to tell you, I work a non-union police job and I make $30,000 a year.

I work a second part time gig (for the state police) to make ends meet... and at that gig I'm made to pay the FOP $50 / month, but they refuse to provide me with any union services because I'm a part time employee. So I have to pay in, but I get nothing for it. So in that case, the union is "extorting" me.

$31 / hour minus $5 an hour is still way the **** more than I make at either job, even at an overtime rate at either job. So I have a hard time feeling sorry for poor CPD; and I guarantee that in this economy publicly crying about "only" making $26 / hr to stand around at Kroger and flirt with the cashiers is going to piss off a lot of the electorate who work hard ass jobs for near minimum wage.

This article doesn't specifically report on it, but there is a sense of entitlement that a lot of cops have that I am sick of, and the general public is sick of. We can be our own worst enemy with this sort of thing.

I'm not gonna say that higher paid coppers don;t deserve what they make, but crying about it in a public forum isn't going to win any sympathy from most people.
I'm with you.

Sorry guys. I'm a citizen before i'm a cop. I'm tired of public sector unions holding taxpayers hostage.

Second to that, the FOP is a joke. They refuse to even offer membership to part time or volunteer police officers in my AO. They refuse to offer membership to correctional officers, probation officers, or anyone else that they deem not "cop" enough for their organization. The FOP does an excellent job of pitting police officers against each other. I have no candy for the FOP specifically or unions in general.
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Old 04-26-2011, 09:19   #37
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Sorry guys. I'm a citizen before i'm a cop. I'm tired of public sector unions holding taxpayers hostage.
That's just typical right wing/tea party rhetoric, and it's bull****.

Once again, cities can't print money. If they cant afford their public safety forces, they go to them for pay freezes or just lay them off, it's been happening this way all along.

Cities are paying their cops and firemen exactly what they can afford to pay them, no more, and some times less..
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Old 04-26-2011, 09:28   #38
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That's just typical right wing/tea party rhetoric, and it's bull****.

Once again, cities can't print money. If they cant afford their public safety forces, they go to them for pay freezes or just lay them off, it's been happening this way all along.

Cities are paying their cops and firemen exactly what they can afford to pay them, no more, and some times less..
No, I'm sorry, but it's not. An "organization" (corporation) is contracted to demand better pay/benefits for public service agents. The taxpayers are forced to pay these higher wages/benefits or the employees strike/sit-out/whatever. That's extortion. I cannot lend my support to such an organization. They also drive a wedge between employees it doesn't consider "good enough" for it's services but has no problem taking their money.

You have politics, money, and special interests involved. It's a dirty game. Instead, why don't we hold elected officials accountable (sheriff's, judges, prosecutors)?

I worked for a beast of a sheriff. I'm still counting the days until he lands his own ass in federal prison. He was about as corrupt as they get and treated us horribly. Lots of folks lost their jobs. However I still in good conscious cannot support a "union" for government employees.
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Old 04-26-2011, 10:08   #39
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I'm with you.

Sorry guys. I'm a citizen before i'm a cop. I'm tired of public sector unions holding taxpayers hostage.

Second to that, the FOP is a joke. They refuse to even offer membership to part time or volunteer police officers in my AO. They refuse to offer membership to correctional officers, probation officers, or anyone else that they deem not "cop" enough for their organization. The FOP does an excellent job of pitting police officers against each other. I have no candy for the FOP specifically or unions in general.
<---- is a corrections officer.

I'm also an active member of the FOP, having once been a shift union representative and currently chair of the legislative committee and represent our lodge as a legislative agent in the state legislature.

The FOP isn't anti-corrections at all...they simply require that arrest authority be a prerequisite for membership. Lexington corrections has a lodge, and is currently trying to decertify their present collective bargaining agent in favor of the FOP. We've had them for representation for eight years now.

In that eight years, I've gotten a substantial pay increase (started at $10/hr, eleven years ago, and am making over 90% more now). I have a FREE lawyer that covers me for ANY actions against me, be they criminal or administrative, on or off duty, so long as they are job related (they wont represent me for a DUI, but will for a lawsuit filed if I was working off duty and caught an excessive force complaint).

We also have a better contract than we did when the lying, thieving Teamsters were our representatives. They'd sell out someone in a heartbeat, the FOP has tried to keep things equal for all.

So, say what you want. I've seen what its like not being with the FOP, and how things are with them. Ill take the latter, based on eight years of membership, the last four of which have seen me directly involved. I speak with state and local elected officials to help better working conditions and the like for our officers. Yeah, I'm one of the hated and loathed "lobbyists" that we hear about. Wouldn't have it any other way. Matter of.fact, I'm introducig a state rep at tonights meeting that has been invaluable to us - we've got a little show of appreciation for her.

Oh, and duke - when you gonna get back down there?

Anyway, wanted to clear that up with the whole FOP is anti-corrections thing. They're (we're) not.
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Old 04-26-2011, 10:19   #40
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KK -

You might also check state laws and specific union contracts....most, if not all, contracts for public safety agencies do not allow job actions like strikes or sick outs. Participating in such activities is.grounds for.summary termination, as it should be. In addition, many states have laws prohibiting strikes by public safety agencies, specifically police.

Again, that's as it should be. Negotiating for pay and wages is one thing. Putting the public safety at risk is another. We can, and have (not my lodge, we assisted another) picketed/protested, though.

Oh, and to my knowledge, we aren't incorporated. I'll check on that, and correct it, if im wrong.

Point is, the FOP is a big asset. Sorry you don't see it that way. I've got personal experience with them, and you apparently bought into the anti-union hype. Hope that changes, and if you ever have questions, let me know. I can put you in touch with the state leadership in your area.
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