Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-06-2011, 01:17   #1
21Carrier
Until I Gota 29
 
21Carrier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hoover, AL
Posts: 3,037
New and Upcoming Wax Test Tube Tests

Well, the hackers messed with our site, so I lost my entire thread. I'm gonna shorten it (maybe) and start it again.

So, now that the whole tornado mess has calmed down, and I have returned to shooting, I have one test result, and several planned ones to share. Here they are, likely in chronological order. I still don't have a chronograph, so sorry for the lack of velocity data.

Test 1:
Factory Winchester Silvertip 175gr

Well, I had a good idea that these would under-perform out of my G29's factory barrel. They had become my new carry round, so I had to test them first. I was worried that the loss in velocity would cause them to not fully expand, since their design was based on the .41Mag/.44Mag Silvertip. They actually did OK. But they fell WAAAAY short of my previous carry load test (Hornady 155gr XTP with max Blue Dot). Go here for the results of that test: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthre...1338082&page=2

The Factory Silvertip expanded to an average of .701" with a max of .755". Retained mass was excellent @ 172.2gr, or 174.3gr with the three jacket petals which had broken off. The three petals broken off were the only sign of jacket separation. This is on par with the XTP 155gr. Where the Silvertip got completely beat down was penetration. The 155gr XTP passed all the way through the 12" wax tube. The Silvertip stopped at 6"!!!! The wound channel was about .75" wide at its widest (compared to 1.5" for the 155gr XTP). Now, I've read on the Bullet Test Tube's site, and elsewhere, that this material should yield about half the penetration of a human. So it looks like the Silvertip might be good for about 12".

Anyway, this has caused me to build my own Silvertip. See Test 2.

Pics of the Silvertip:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_K...0/IMG_0967.JPG

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...81466864554834

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...86257942190674

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...86422809761890

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...86455287430434

Test 2:
Silvertip with max 800-X or Blue Dot

Because of the mediocre performance of the factory Silvertip, I decided to pull all the bullets and make my own. I believe this bullet has the potential to hit expansion figures of 1"or close, given enough velocity. So, I have loaded some with max loads using both 800-X and Blue Dot. Since I don't have a chrono, I'll test both, likely the 800-X first. I will test it tomorrow and let y'all know how it goes.

Test 3:
Hornady 200gr XTP with max 800-X

A wax test tube of this load will come soon, but see below for a water jug test. I have a feeling I'll need a longer tube (I just extended it to 16").

This load is a BEAST!!! I loaded and shot it at some water jugs (pics and video to follow). It fully penetrated FIVE milk jugs, and was caught in the plastic in the back of the fifth jug. That's penetration. Not only did it penetrate five jugs, but it exploded THREE. Usually, these 10mm bullets will EXPLODE one jug, tear up the second, and penetrate the third. Sometimes the second will explode, but I've never seen the first THREE explode. It shows that these heavy bullets have lots of inertia, and retain energy and velocity. They don't lose velocity and dump their energy quickly like the smaller bullets, but by the same token, their jug explosions are not as spectacular since they don't deposit as much energy. Expansion was standard XTP fare: first bullet average ~.600"/max .650"; second bullet average ~.650"/max .711". No jacket separation occurred. Retained mass was good at 188.6gr and 191.6gr.

Edited to include load data: This is OVER BOOK MAX, so please work-up and be careful!!! This load was as follows: Remington nickel brass, CCI 300 primers, 9.0gr 800-X, Hornady 200gr XTP, COAL 1.260"

Pics:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...85800477039730

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...85916099156882

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...86027272305250

Video of shooting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKhglJ6T-oM

Test 4:
Modified 155/180/200gr XTP over max 800-X

I noticed that the Silvertips look very similar to XTPs, except that they have a small hole drilled deep into the center of the hollow point. I made a 200gr XTP with such a hole to see what expansion would be like, but when I got to my usual woods shooting venue, I was surprised by an abandoned and burnt up truck. I was so excited that I had a car to shoot up, I accidentally shot my single modified 200gr XTP. ****. A wax tube test will come soon.

Test 5:
Hornady 155gr XTP Max Blue Dot Load (repeat)

I'm going to repeat this test eventually for the simple fact that it absolutely blew the factory Silvertip out of the water. I have no reason to suspect my data or wax tube, as both the 155gr XTP test and the factory Silvertip test were conducted with the same wax (I just melted and reformed it), and the same cardboard tube (taped up for the Silvertip). I have no clue why the XTP would DOUBLE the penetration of the Silvertip. I know the XTPs are supposed to penetrate well, but WOW! Twelve inches through this wax should equate to roughly 24" through gelatin or flesh. Also, the wound channel was twice as wide. I think a repeat is necessary.

There will be other tests in the future, but this is all I have planned for the next week or so. I'll try to get some Gold Dots (155, 165, 180gr), some Nosler 135s, Golden Sabres, and anything else that you guys want to see. I'll keep all of you posted!

Last edited by 21Carrier; 05-08-2011 at 14:09..
21Carrier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 07:48   #2
Jitterbug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 943
Good stuff 21
Jitterbug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 11:29   #3
Taterhead
Counting Beans
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 2,962
Wonderful! Very interesting experiments. I don't think many of us are surprised by the Silvertip results. I look forward to your 200 grain XTP results. That is a lot of work and I appreciate you sharing the pictures and results with us.

Glad the storms have calmed down.
Taterhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 19:54   #4
21Carrier
Until I Gota 29
 
21Carrier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hoover, AL
Posts: 3,037
I screwed around today and didn't get out to the range to test the custom hot Silvertip, but I will tomorrow morning. I think I might make a second tube tonight so I can test the 200gr XTP, although I like the fact that I've been using the exact same wax material for each test, as it is better for comparable results. I am fairly certain the 200gr XTP will achieve full penetration of the tube, but we will see. I am really excited about the modified XTPs. I know it might not be the best idea to modify bullets, but I think it may make the XTPs more suitable for self defense use.

The fact that my first wax tube test, with the hot 155gr XTP, achieved 12+" of penetration (which should be about 24+" in gel/tissue) is kind of scary if it were intended for self defense duty. I think drilling a small hole down the center of the hollowpoint will allow the bullet to expand further down its shank. It might cause the bullet to fail and rip apart, but I think it will be fun anyway.

I'll have some more results for y'all tomorrow. I'll shoot one of these modified 200gr XTPs at some jugs while I'm out there tomorrow for comparison to the normal XTP. A full wax tube test will be in a few days.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 05-06-2011 at 19:57..
21Carrier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 08:56   #5
hubcap500
Senior Member
 
hubcap500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 233
Thanx for your work. Wish I could be there. You've got my attention. I'll be watching.
hubcap500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 08:58   #6
hubcap500
Senior Member
 
hubcap500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 233
BTW, what is distance of gun to target (wax)?
hubcap500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 09:33   #7
hubcap500
Senior Member
 
hubcap500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 233
BTW again. Where do you get your cardboard tubes?
hubcap500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 12:31   #8
MinervaDoe
Senior Member
 
MinervaDoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Way out in left field
Posts: 7,010
Blog Entries: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
I think I might make a second tube tonight so I can test the 200gr XTP, although I like the fact that I've been using the exact same wax material for each test, as it is better for comparable results.
As long you are doing such an excellent job of photo journalism, is there any chance that you could snap a couple of photos of the wax tube manufacturing process?

Quote:
Originally Posted by National Inquirer
Inquiring minds want to know.
Quote:
I have no clue why the XTP would DOUBLE the penetration of the Silvertip. I know the XTPs are supposed to penetrate well, but WOW!
I think that it is a late opening round (which I believe benefit greatly from high velocity). Which is also why I think it is well suited to 10mm.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by MinervaDoe; 05-07-2011 at 12:37..
MinervaDoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 17:05   #9
crsuribe
10mm Auto
 
crsuribe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: OH
Posts: 1,737
Is there any way you could use photobucket instead of picasa? Picasa is pretty bad and wont load on any of my computers so I can only see the pictures that you didnt post on picasa. Plus photobucket will give you the code so you can embed the pics into your post.
__________________
R.I.P William Michael Willard from Swamp Fox Gun Works
R.I.P Chris Kyle -
What a damn shame you're gone!!

*I love USA*
crsuribe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 22:45   #10
21Carrier
Until I Gota 29
 
21Carrier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hoover, AL
Posts: 3,037
Quote:
Originally Posted by hubcap500 View Post
BTW, what is distance of gun to target (wax)?
I shoot about 5 feet from muzzle to tube, just so I make sure it's a near perfect center hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hubcap500 View Post
BTW again. Where do you get your cardboard tubes?
You can get shipping tubes from anywhere that sells shipping supplies, like the UPS Store. I just make my own. I just roll up some cardboard and tape it up well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MinervaDoe View Post
As long you are doing such an excellent job of photo journalism, is there any chance that you could snap a couple of photos of the wax tube manufacturing process?

I think that it is a late opening round (which I believe benefit greatly from high velocity). Which is also why I think it is well suited to 10mm.
I made a video of the process. It's on YouTube, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtzQT8S2wBg

If there's something that I missed in the video, just ask me a specific question and I'll answer it for you.

From my first test, it actually appears the XTPs open really fast (almost instantly, but then the lead takes a while to peel back, and it is controlled expansion, so it doesn't expand too much. Check out my results of my modified 200gr XTP (info will follow). It was impressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crsuribe View Post
Is there any way you could use photobucket instead of picasa? Picasa is pretty bad and wont load on any of my computers so I can only see the pictures that you didnt post on picasa. Plus photobucket will give you the code so you can embed the pics into your post.
I'll try to use Photobucket, but I've already uploaded them into Picasa. I'll change over to Photobucket in the next day or two.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 05-07-2011 at 22:45..
21Carrier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 23:12   #11
21Carrier
Until I Gota 29
 
21Carrier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hoover, AL
Posts: 3,037
Ok, Test 2 is complete (Hot, reloaded Silvertip) with some impressive results:

The reloaded Silvertip definitely had better results. Expansion was slightly better, at .844" maximum, .716" minimum. The bullet had almost expanded fully. This load out of a G20 should expand even more, and may produce around .9-1.0" of expansion. Penetration was just over 9", vs. 6" for the factory Silvertip. This should equal about 18" in tissue, or gelatin. Retained mass was 168.3gr without the four petals that broke off, 174.4gr with the petals. Jacket separation did not occur.

The wax tube showed a permanent stretch cavity of about 1.7" in diameter (best result yet), and the temporary cavity was much worse. I have found that I need to cut open the tube right there on the range. I always wait to get home to cut it open, and today found out that it rebounds to some extent. Right after shooting, there was a chamber almost 3" in diameter just inside the entrance hole. After sitting around for a couple hours, the hole rebounded slightly.

Edited to include load data: This load is slightly OVER BOOK MAX, so please be careful, and start lower and work up observing pressure signs. This load was as follows: Remington nickel brass, CCI 300 primers, 10.2gr 800-X, Winchester 175gr Silvertip, COAL 1.260". This round looks really cool being ALL silver.

Update: this load chronographed a 10-shot average of 1243fps on 8/4/11.

Pictures of Silvertip:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...98422024248098

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...98466842103362

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...98784955136530

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...98864948244578

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...98866263785554

I also tested one of my modified 200gr XTPs with awesome results. It was not fired into the tube, however, as my second wax tube that I had made was not yet hardened. I fired it into water as a preliminary test. A normal 200gr XTP posted the following results (both bullets were fired with the same hot load of 800-X): Max expansion .652", min expansion .582", retained mass 188.7gr. The modified XTP (I drilled a small hole to about twice the depth of the factory hollow point) posted these results: max expansion .928", min expansion .747", retained mass 200.2gr.

Not only did the modified XTP show MUCH greater expansion, it retained more mass, which was definitely surprising. I'm not sure about penetration yet, as that will have to wait for wax tube testing, but I'll do it soon. I'm also not really sure about the application of this bullet except as a self defense round. Although, a 180gr version would likely serve that purpose better. I was out of 180s so I'll try that soon. I also tried this with a 155gr XTP, but I was low on jugs and didn't find the core. The recovered jacket definitely showed extreme expansion, so I'll try it again.

Edited to include load data: This load is OVER BOOK MAX, so please be careful, start lower, and work up slowly observing pressure signs. This load was as follows: Remington nickel brass, CCI 300 primers, 9.0gr of 800-X, Hornady 200gr XTP, COAL 1.260".

Update: this load chronographed a 10-shot average of 1124fps on 8/4/11.

Pictures (the first pic has a normal 200gr XTP on left, modified 200gr XTP center, and a 175gr Silvertip on right. The Silvertip gave me the idea for this, so I put it there to show the idea):

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...99186742295922

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...99451145004546

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...99501198372354

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...99518738509618

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-05-2011 at 06:41..
21Carrier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 00:08   #12
MinervaDoe
Senior Member
 
MinervaDoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Way out in left field
Posts: 7,010
Blog Entries: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
You can get shipping tubes from anywhere that sells shipping supplies, like the UPS Store. I just make my own. I just roll up some cardboard and tape it up well.



I made a video of the process. It's on YouTube, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtzQT8S2wBg
Very thorough. Thank you.

I didn't realize it was a Mythbusters thing. I guess I haven't been watching it much lately.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
MinervaDoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 07:23   #13
Kegs
Ol 8 fingers ;)
 
Kegs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Cold side of conus
Posts: 2,682
Good info - but are the powder #s missing or did I scan too quickly?
__________________
"What's the down side to 10mm again? Oh, that's right, there isn't one."" Carrier21
Kegs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 07:33   #14
Jitterbug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 943
The performance of the "modified" bullets is drastic. And your experimenting and posting it online is wonderful stuff.

But....

And...I hate it when someone inserts "don't carry re-loads" when discussing duplicating factory CCW ammo or heaven forbid modifying bullets....

With that said I'll insert this link to a response I received when seeking load data for factory loads for a snubbie that I've been recently carrying.

It's sobering and food for thought in case anyone is tempted (as I am) to CCW handloads or modify bullets for said purpose.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....&postcount=140

Not to derail...continue on with the experiments by all means...just something to seriously consider.
Jitterbug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 09:30   #15
MinervaDoe
Senior Member
 
MinervaDoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Way out in left field
Posts: 7,010
Blog Entries: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jitterbug View Post
Link doesn't work.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
MinervaDoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 14:02   #16
21Carrier
Until I Gota 29
 
21Carrier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hoover, AL
Posts: 3,037
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinervaDoe View Post
Very thorough. Thank you.

I didn't realize it was a Mythbusters thing. I guess I haven't been watching it much lately.
Yeah, I didn't realize it was a Mythbuster's thing either. I actually found the recipe on a Mythbuster's forum, and they said that the guys on the show have switched from gel and are using wax instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
Good info - but are the powder #s missing or did I scan too quickly?
No, I just forgot about the powder numbers. I'll go back and edit my posts to include load data. Sorry, I just got ahead of myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jitterbug View Post
The performance of the "modified" bullets is drastic. And your experimenting and posting it online is wonderful stuff.

But....

And...I hate it when someone inserts "don't carry re-loads" when discussing duplicating factory CCW ammo or heaven forbid modifying bullets....

With that said I'll insert this link to a response I received when seeking load data for factory loads for a snubbie that I've been recently carrying.

It's sobering and food for thought in case anyone is tempted (as I am) to CCW handloads or modify bullets for said purpose.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....&postcount=140

Not to derail...continue on with the experiments by all means...just something to seriously consider.
I didn't read the link, but I have read plenty on the subject of carrying handloads. I never intended to carry these modified bullets, it was really just an experiment, although, I will be carrying the handloaded Silvertips. I fully realize the problems with carrying handloads, but I feel that I would rather be well equipped to save my life than worry about a lawsuit that won't be a problem if I can't save myself in the first place. Also, it seems like there have only been a handful of times in actual case law where a good shooting has turned sour for the shooter because of handloads.

I also realize I could just carry Swamp Fox or DT ammo or something, but I've just been spending too much money on other stuff to get around to ordering some. I will eventually get some, and quit carrying handloads, but until then, my handloads are the best ammo to which I have access.
21Carrier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 15:49   #17
Jitterbug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 943
I understand and don't think you would 21, you seem to me to be a pretty smart guy and for the most part I agree with your line of thinking and I'm fascinated by and enjoy reading about your results.

And I really don't want to derail with the link...so continue on and if anyone cares to we can open a different thread on legal issues regarding re-loads and CCW, not that it hasn't been beaten to death before.

And I really do hate it when trying to find info on duplicating factory loads how someone always chimes in about the legal ramifications...

But food for thought for anyone considering "modifying" a bullet for self defense, or the subject of this link being "re-loads" so I'll try and post again for those who want to read it...post #140 is what caught my attention.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...76#post2129976
Jitterbug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 16:36   #18
21Carrier
Until I Gota 29
 
21Carrier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hoover, AL
Posts: 3,037
Don't feel bad, Jitterbug, it's an important issue. There are lots of people that aren't aware of the potential danger of carrying handloads. I just learned about it a few months ago, after carrying them for a few months. It's just a personal decision every handloader has to make, and it can only be made once we are informed, so your post definitely has its place here.
21Carrier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 17:24   #19
crsuribe
10mm Auto
 
crsuribe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: OH
Posts: 1,737
Finally saw the pics. That modified XTP is HUGE. Wow.
__________________
R.I.P William Michael Willard from Swamp Fox Gun Works
R.I.P Chris Kyle -
What a damn shame you're gone!!

*I love USA*
crsuribe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 17:48   #20
21Carrier
Until I Gota 29
 
21Carrier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hoover, AL
Posts: 3,037
Yeah, I was pretty amazed with the expansion of the modified XTP. I was pretty sure it would increase expansion, but I was afraid it would cause bullet failure (fragmentation, jacket separation, etc). When I weighed it next to the regular XTP I was shocked that it retained more mass. In fact, after I posted the info, I thought I might have gotten them backwards, so I weighed them again. I was right, the modified one was right at 200gr.

I'm gonna test a normal XTP in the wax tube tomorrow, and I'll do the modified one after that (probably Tuesday or Wednesday). I can't wait to see the damage it will do to the wax tube. I'm hoping it will still penetrate well. I'm expecting it to go about 12" in the wax. If so, that would be a monster hunting round.
21Carrier is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 14:05.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,252
302 Members
950 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31