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Old 05-11-2011, 08:02   #26
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I must say this is an awesome thread... but i've been so busy I have no time to add much to it. Keep it up, 21! I'm tuned in, here... I've been asking / wanting tests like this with XTP's for a while, now!
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Old 05-11-2011, 17:20   #27
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I've bought the petr. jelly to mix with the wax I had on hand. (Found it was cheaper at Dollar General than Walmart, Walgreens, etc.) Now to get the time to mix and test it....

Last edited by hubcap500; 05-12-2011 at 19:59..
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Old 05-11-2011, 17:33   #28
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Make sure you set aside a good bit of time. It takes probably about 1-2 hours for everything to melt. THEN, it's gonna take at least 4-5 hours to pour it into the mold. I wouldn't use a tube any bigger than 5" in diameter (the size would be preferable, but it would take forever to harden/pour). Both of mine are 4", and they seem to work fine.

The best way to do it is to pour about 1-2" deep at a time (I use a soup ladle, and usually pour 1.5-2 full scoops at a time), put it in the fridge, and let that layer fully harden. Then pour the next layer. If you pour in a bunch at a time, the top will harden first, then when the center hardens, it will shrink, causing a deep hole in the center. I've done it that way a few times, and it's OK, but you have to save enough at the end to fill in the hole. Also, realize that what you pour into the hole will in turn shrink, and then you'll have to fill in THAT hole.

Basically, just don't pour the whole lot into the tube at once, or you will be remelting it.

Edited to add: Also, if you do use the fridge to cut down hardening times, make sure you let the tube sit out at room temperature for about 3-4 hours (overnight would be ideal) to come back to room temperature before shooting. I haven't tested the tube cold, but for comparability's sake I think we should, if at all possible, keep tests equal. I would think cold wax would be less fluid, and could affect the bullet's expansion mechanism, and/or penetration depth.

Also, try to keep the melted wax temp as low as possible, as it will keep your hardening wait times to a minimum. After heating the water in my "double boiler", I adjust the stove to medium until the wax starts melting quickly, then I lower it to just above its lowest setting to keep it fluid.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 05-12-2011 at 02:22..
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Old 05-12-2011, 01:35   #29
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Hey guys, as I mentioned, tomorrow I will test the modified 200gr XTP in the wax tube. However, I just realized something: there's still an abandoned pickup truck out where I shoot! Anyone want to see some "through the door" wax tube tests? I'll probably do some this weekend if the thing is still there. I'm thinking 155 and 180gr XTPs, a Silvertip, and maybe a 200gr XTP just for kicks. Let me know if y'all would like to see something like this.
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Old 05-12-2011, 13:46   #30
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Um yes. That would cool - especially any of the XTPs. Please do.
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Old 05-12-2011, 19:55   #31
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Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
. Let me know if y'all would like to see something like this.
Sign me up!

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Old 05-12-2011, 19:57   #32
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. Let me know if y'all would like to see something like this.
Sign me up! In fact, can you stop by and pick me up so I can watch in person.
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Old 05-12-2011, 23:06   #33
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Ok, first let me start by saying, DAMN!!! THEY REMOVED THE TRUCK!!! I was SOOOOO pissed. I had about ten jugs and a wax tube, three different weights of XTPs, some Silvertips, and many different powder loads to test on the truck. But, alas, someone took it. I don't know why I didn't have the idea for that test earlier. DAMN!!!

Anyway, I tested four modified XTPs today, one 200gr in the wax tube, one 200gr in water jugs, and two 155gr bullets in water jugs. The 200gr results were impressive to say the least, while the 155gr bullets will require some more fine tuning.

Modified 200gr XTP Wax Tube Test:

I started this project totally on a whim. I simply noticed that the Winchester Silvertip bullets were almost identical to the XTPs, except they had a deep hole down the center of the hollow point. I measured it, and replicated it in a 200gr XTP just for the hell of it. After thorough testing, this bullet is a monster!

The modified 200gr XTP has a hole drilled down the center of the longitudinal axis. The hole's diameter is 5/64", and the depth is about .330" from the tip of the bullet. A drill press would be ideal for consistency, but a hand drill has sufficed for me.

Results:
WOW! Recall that my goal was to combine a Silvertip's expansion with the XTP's affordability, rugged jacket, and availability. The picture says it all; I feel I succeeded, at least with the 200gr bullet. The best I can describe how this bullet looks, is maybe a hybrid of a Gold Dot and a Silvertip. This load consisted of Remington nickel brass, CCI 300 primers, 9.0gr 800-X, Hornady 200gr XTP, COAL 1.260", stock Glock 29 used.

Update: this load chronographed a 10-shot average of 1124fps on 8/4/11.

Max expansion registered .767", while minimum expansion stayed a respectable .705". Retained mass was excellent at 196.6gr. The bullet exhibited no jacket separation, and expansion was eerily similar to the hot, handloaded Silvertip. Penetration, at 11", ALMOST matched the normal XTP. Even so, 11" of wax penetration should equal 22+/-" in tissue/gelatin. So, a theoretical 22" of penetration, AND .8" of expansion!

I also tested a second modified 200gr XTP in water jugs. Remember, I tested one a few days ago that was awesome. This one disappointed. I was low on jugs, and it only had two jugs to rip through before burying itself in the ground. I think that caused it to not expand as far. Regardless, it still performed better than most factory 200gr XTPs. It showed a max expansion of .660", and a min of .594". Retained mass was 194.8gr.

I also videotaped this wax tube shooting, and I'll post it on YouTube in a minute. I'll place the link here, or you can just search for my screen name, Alphazuluz.

Pictures (left to right, factory 200gr XTP, modified 200gr XTP in water, modified 200gr XTP in wax tube, hot handloaded 175gr Silvertip in wax tube):

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...52123615142066

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...52152581998242

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...52349234935346

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...54117946179394

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...54451109570002

Modified 155gr XTP Water Jug Test:

I have been trying to get this "modification" to work with the 155gr XTP, but it keeps ending in what Mike McNett calls a "frag-nasty" situation. While it would make for one hell of a low-penetration, energy dumping round, it may not be perfect for SD applications. I still need to adjust the drill depth shallower. I believe the key will be a hole that barely penetrates the bullet.

Until it is sorted out, here is the data. Two rounds were tested, one was mostly recovered, of the other, only the core was recovered. The first was basically "frag-nasty", and the largest piece I found was the jacket. Total jacket separation occurred, and the core split into several pieces. I recovered a total mass of 124.7gr. Of the second bullet, I only recovered the core. It was heavily expanded to a max value of 1.007", and a minimum of .616". Without the jacket, recovered mass measured a disappointing 100.9gr. Both penetrated two jugs fully, the first entering a third. The second was only tested with two jugs, and was found on the ground behind the second jug.

I am still hopeful that I can fine-tune the depth of this modification to produce good results, but the short shank length of the 155gr bullet may not allow as much expansion as I'm looking for, at least without complete fragmentation.

Pictures:

Bullet 1

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...56416077138450

Bullet 2

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...56618994014466

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-05-2011 at 06:45..
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Old 05-13-2011, 04:58   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
Ok, first let me start by saying, DAMN!!! THEY REMOVED THE TRUCK!!! I was SOOOOO pissed. I had about ten jugs and a wax tube, three different weights of XTPs, some Silvertips, and many different powder loads to test on the truck. But, alas, someone took it. I don't know why I didn't have the idea for that test earlier. DAMN!!!

Anyway, I tested four modified XTPs today, one 200gr in the wax tube, one 200gr in water jugs, and two 155gr bullets in water jugs. The 200gr results were impressive to say the least, while the 155gr bullets will require some more fine tuning.

Modified 200gr XTP
I started this project totally on a whim. I simply noticed that the Winchester Silvertip bullets were almost identical to the XTPs, except they had a deep hole down the center of the hollow point. I measured it, and replicated it in a 200gr XTP just for the hell of it. After thorough testing, this bullet is a monster!

The modified 200gr XTP has a hole drilled down the center of the longitudinal axis. The hole's diameter is 5/64", and the depth is about .330" from the tip of the bullet. A drill press would be ideal for consistency, but a hand drill has sufficed for me.

Results:
WOW! Recall that my goal was to combine a Silvertip's expansion with the XTP's affordability, rugged jacket, and availability. The picture says it all; I feel I succeeded, at least with the 200gr bullet. The best I can describe how this bullet looks, is maybe a hybrid of a Gold Dot and a Silvertip. This load consisted of Remington nickel brass, CCI 300 primers, 9.0gr 800-X, Hornady 200gr XTP, COAL 1.260", stock Glock 29 used. Max expansion registered .767", while minimum expansion stayed a respectable .705". Retained mass was excellent at 196.6gr. The bullet exhibited no jacket separation, and expansion was eerily similar to the hot, handloaded Silvertip. Penetration, at 11", ALMOST matched the normal XTP. Even so, 11" of wax penetration should equal 22+/-" in tissue/gelatin. So, a theoretical 22" of penetration, AND .8" of expansion!

I also tested a second modified 200gr XTP in water jugs. Remember, I tested one a few days ago that was awesome. This one disappointed. I was low on jugs, and it only had two jugs to rip through before burying itself in the ground. I think that caused it to not expand as far. Regardless, it still performed better than most factory 200gr XTPs. It showed a max expansion of .660", and a min of .594". Retained mass was 194.8gr.

I also videotaped this wax tube shooting, and I'll post it on YouTube in a minute. I'll place the link here, or you can just search for my screen name, Alphazuluz.

Pictures (left to right, factory 200gr XTP, modified 200gr XTP in water, modified 200gr XTP in wax tube, hot handloaded 175gr Silvertip in wax tube):

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...52123615142066

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...52152581998242

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...52349234935346

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...54117946179394

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...54451109570002

Modified 155gr XTP:
I have been trying to get this "modification" to work with the 155gr XTP, but it keeps ending in what Mike McNett calls a "frag-nasty" situation. While it would make for one hell of a low-penetration, energy dumping round, it may not be perfect for SD applications. I still need to adjust the drill depth shallower. I believe the key will be a hole that barely penetrates the bullet.

Until it is sorted out, here is the data. Two rounds were tested, one was mostly recovered, of the other, only the core was recovered. The first was basically "frag-nasty", and the largest piece I found was the jacket. Total jacket separation occurred, and the core split into several pieces. I recovered a total mass of 124.7gr. Of the second bullet, I only recovered the core. It was heavily expanded to a max value of 1.007", and a minimum of .616". Without the jacket, recovered mass measured a disappointing 100.9gr. Both penetrated two jugs fully, the first entering a third. The second was only tested with two jugs, and was found on the ground behind the second jug.

I am still hopeful that I can fine-tune the depth of this modification to produce good results, but the short shank length of the 155gr bullet may not allow as much expansion as I'm looking for, at least without complete fragmentation.

Pictures:

Bullet 1

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...56416077138450

Bullet 2

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...56618994014466
Awesome report ... thanks for the work you've done here.

The modified 155gr looks eerily similar to the Nosler 135gr HP that McNett and many other's load which breaks apart every time after hitting pretty much ANY target. As for the 200gr, very very interesting.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:53   #35
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I'd like to see the difference, if any, in the 180gr XTP vs the 200gr variety. There probably isn't too much difference but it would be interesting to know, considering the max loading of 180gr XTP's run around 100+ fps MORE than the hottest 200gr.
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Old 05-13-2011, 15:09   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickE10mm View Post
I'd like to see the difference, if any, in the 180gr XTP vs the 200gr variety. There probably isn't too much difference but it would be interesting to know, considering the max loading of 180gr XTP's run around 100+ fps MORE than the hottest 200gr.
I was thinking the same thing. Stock 180 vs stock 200. That would be interesting to compare results.

Very cool tests 29Carrier errr, I mean 21Carrier. Thanks for bringing us along.
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Old 05-13-2011, 17:10   #37
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No problem, guys. I enjoy doing it. I would be doing it regardless. At least putting it here on the internet gives it more purpose. The next tests will be regular and modified 180gr XTPs. Hopefully I can do both of them on Sunday. Gun Show tomorrow!!! WOOOHOOO!!!!
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Old 05-13-2011, 20:34   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
No problem, guys. I enjoy doing it. I would be doing it regardless. At least putting it here on the internet gives it more purpose. The next tests will be regular and modified 180gr XTPs. Hopefully I can do both of them on Sunday. Gun Show tomorrow!!! WOOOHOOO!!!!
Nice. I'll be in my wife's birthday celebration mode Sunday and Monday... Followed by a hangover on Tuesday. I will, however be tuned in via iPhone.
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Old 05-14-2011, 16:38   #39
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Hey guys, I went to the gun show with high hopes of scoring some 135gr Noslers, 165gr Gold Dots, and maybe some others. Well, that didn't exactly work out. I did get some 180gr XTPs, which I promised to test next. I'll try to test a normal and modified 180gr XTP tomorrow, but it will likely be Monday since I have yet to melt the wax from the last tests (it is a long process).

Anyway, I actually kind of lied earlier when I said I didn't find any of those bullets. I did, in fact, find 5 great new bullets to test, but all but one were in loaded .40S&W cartridges. So, I bought them, and I'm now pulling the bullets to use in some hot reload wax tube tests. So, without further ado, here are the new stars for the next line of testing (likely to be done in the next week):

1. PMC Starfire - I saw a post from someone else who had used one of these in a 10mm loading, and it resulted in OVER 1" of expansion. I'm VERY interested!!! This is the .40S&W 180gr variety, but will be reloaded to hot 10mm spec, of course. I have 40 of them.

2. Nosler 135gr JHP - I found these as CorBon .40S&W 135gr JHP. They also had the 10mm version, but it was $3.00 more, so I went with the .40s since I was gonna pull the bullets anyway. CorBon hit these with a SERIOUS crimp. I hope that doesn't cause problems (see pic below). It deformed the bullet somewhat. The rest look fine after being pulled. I have 20 of these.

3. Speer 165gr Gold Dot - Ok, so I bought a box of 50 of these for only $2 more than the box of 20. However, I got home and started pulling them apart to find that there were only 4, count 'em FOUR, 165gr bullets in the whole box of fifty. The rest were 180gr Gold Dots. DAMMIT!!! I have FOUR of these, damn ammo switchers!

4. Speer 180gr Gold Dot - Well, I wanted to test the 180gr GD, too, but I was too cheap to buy a box of both, so I was actually happy when I found a few of these in my box of 165gr bullets. Not so much when I realized that 46/50 were 180gr bullets. I really wanted the 165s more. Oh well. I have 46 of these.

5. Drum roll please . . . Yes, coming very soon, will be the one, the only, the legendary, armor piercing (not really), cop slaying, surgeon glove tearing, too bad ass for the American public (at least in black teflon), 200gr BLACK TALON 10mm!!! - I was sifting through this massive pile of old-ass ammo some old-timer had (I swear I had to YELL at him to get him to even realize I was standing there). And there it was, a single box of 10mm Black Talon ammo. I picked it up, and immediately realized it was way too light. I thought for a minute it was just the box, but no, there were TWO rounds left. He sold me the box and two rounds for the substantial sum of $2.00. How could I pass that up, even if they were to just collect dust? I will likely shoot one, and save the other. So I only have ONE to shoot, unless I do something to mess it up, and then I'll shoot the other. I guess having a fired, mushroomed Black Talon is even cooler than having an unfired one, right?

Anyway, I will be testing the five above rounds loaded to max power in the wax tube. I will also test the 180gr XTPs first, since I know a lot of you have really wanted to see that one.

Please, if any of you can help guide me towards good max loads for any of these bullets, I would greatly appreciate it. I promise I will be safe, but I simply don't have enough bullets to do a full work-up (especially with the 4 165gr GD, and ONE BT that I'm willing to fire). Any help would be greatly appreciated. If you aren't comfortable posting it here, just PM me. I SWEAR, if I blow my hand off, IT IS MY FAULT. There, I said it in plain view for the world to see. Now, hook a brother up with some good Blue Dot, or preferably 800-X loads. Thanks guys, I can't wait for the results!!!

AGAIN, PLEASE HELP ME WITH LOADS, ESPECIALLY WITH THE BLACK TALON.


Pics:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...05466074578786

Last edited by 21Carrier; 05-14-2011 at 16:53..
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Old 05-14-2011, 18:07   #40
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Awesome!! Busy at the moment but I will try and assist with the loads later on or in morning!

Awesome!!
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Old 05-16-2011, 19:42   #41
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I planned on doing both the factory and modified 180gr XTP tests today, but one of my tubes was not ready, so I had to choose just one. I would have done the factory XTP, but when I made my cardboard tube for my first wax tube, I made it slightly too large in diameter (about 4.5"), and consequently, my wax depth was only about 9". Because of this, I decided to test the modified 180 XTP, since it would be less likely to penetrate as far and exit the tube.

Modified 180gr XTP

Today was my first time shooting 180gr bullets over 800-X, so I had to test a work-up first. Hornady's manual lists a max of 10.1gr, so I started with 9.6gr, and also did strings of 9.9gr, 10.2gr, 10.5gr, and 10.8gr. I made a modified bullet for each of the 10.X strings in case I maxed out at 10.2 or 10.5gr. Pressure signs were minimal (only one tiny Glocksmile at 10.8gr), so I was able to use the 10.8gr load for the test. It consisted of Remington nickel brass, CCI 300 primers, and a COAL of 1.260". In all honesty, I really feel this load might have been too hot. This was the first load that has ever HURT my hand slightly. It felt SERIOUS!

Anyway, I knew over-penetration, and the bullet leaving the tube were possibilities, so I used some 2-liter bottles as backstops. The tube was set on the ground at about a 45* angle towards me. The 2 2-liter bottles were lying down behind it. The round did exit the tube, dented the first bottle, and plowed about 1/2" into the ground.

The bullet fragmented to a degree, leaving 22.1gr of lead in the wax, and about 25gr of lead unaccounted for. The remaining projectile was found in the ground with 133.3gr left intact. The jacket did not separate, but I was able to pull it off of the core. Expansion measure .934" max, and .601" minimum.

Now, when comparing this round to a factory 180gr XTP (only tested in water), it may seem that it was a failure, and perhaps I drilled slightly too far. Maybe a hole of .25-.275" in depth would have been better for retained mass, but as far as tissue damage goes, this is thus far the CLEAR winner.

When examining the wound channel, it looks like a small lead explosion went off about 3-4" deep into the tube. There is what looks like vaporized lead all over the inside of the wound channel's main chamber. The chamber itself is about 2.5" in diameter (a good .5" larger than anything else), and the cardboard tube was completely split and blown out (similar to my original 155gr XTP test, but this tube was way more reinforced).

The results are what I would summarize as a 135gr Nosler that released the massive energy characteristic of it's explosions, while simultaneously retaining all of it's mass (133gr in this case). Because the bullet kept a good bit of mass and its jacked didn't separate, it still achieved what would likely have been 11-12" of penetration. Imagine this in a human. A COM hit that basically exploded at a depth of about 3-4" (basically right on or in the heart), yet a good chunk would keep penetrating to the spine or beyond.

Pics of wax tube:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...92222212770530

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...92395859778722

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...92427336417074

Pics of bullet:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...92883300852066

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...92940952206706

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...92943817130530

180gr Gold Dot and 180gr Starfire water jug tests

I fired one each of the 180gr Starfire and Gold Dot bullets into water jugs. They were used with 10.3gr of 800-X, and the same cases/primers/COAL as above.

Update: this Gold Dot load chronographed a 10-shot average of 1259fps on 8/4/11. The Starfire has not yet been chronographed.

Neither round was found. I found many small pieces of each bullet, which suggests they blew apart. Wax tube tests of them will reveal much more, and will be coming soon. I'm now really wondering how hard I should push some of these bullets. Since they are all designed around the .40S&W, I'm thinking I should keep them in the warm-hot zone, and away from hot-nuclear.

The XTPs and Silvertips have proven to hold together at the ridiculous power levels. I fear the 165/180 Gold Dots, 180 Starfires, and I know the 135 Noslers are going to be bombs. I really want to like the Starfire and Gold Dot, and I'm hoping it does well, but today's preliminary test was a bust.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-05-2011 at 06:47..
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Old 05-17-2011, 22:20   #42
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Hey 10mm fans, I need help. I have the 180gr XTP results, and will have them here in about an hour, but for now, I need some advice. Let me know how hard you guys want me to drive these next few bullets when tested (165 & 180gr Gold Dot, 135gr Nosler JHP, 180gr Starfire, 200gr Black Talon). I had planned to go full-house on them, and still might, but after shooting a 180gr Gold Dot and Starfire at some jugs yesterday, I'm having some reservations (today's 180gr XTP test is also giving me second thoughts). I shot the 180gr GD and Starfire yesterday at jugs with a very hot load, and they basically vaporized. I didn't find the bullets, but found fragments everywhere. Today, I found what was left of the Gold Dot. I will weigh it soon and post the pics when I post the 180gr XTP info in a minute, but it looks shredded, and seems to be down to about 100-120gr. It just seems like the XTP and Silvertip are the only bullets that can handle real 10mm velocities.

Those two bullets (jug tests of 180gr GD and Starfire) were fired using 10.3gr of 800-X (.5gr below my personal max). I'm thinking about testing these bullets around 10.1-10.3gr in the wax tube. 10.1gr is Hornady's max for a 180gr XTP. What do you guys want to see? Hot, or full-house nuclear (at least as far as I'm willing to go)? Help me out and tell me how far to go. Just respond with either HOT or NUCLEAR.

I'm not sure how many people actually tune in to this thread, since it's not really a discussion type thread, but I hope I get at least a few responses. Even if no one was checking this stuff, I'd still keep doing it. I'm just worried that 10.8gr (or a similar max with the lighter/heavier bullets) is going to result in a "frag-nasty" splatter of lead. Let me know what you think. Don't worry about voting NUCLEAR, as my first priority will be to stay safe, so I'm not gonna go past anything I haven't already tested.
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Old 05-18-2011, 01:02   #43
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Hornady 180gr XTP Wax tube test

I tried to do the factory 180gr XTP test today, but the tube wasn't sitting right, so I had to bend down to shoot it, and . . . well, excuses aside, I missed. It went in about 1" from center, penetrated almost 12", then exited the side. I never found the bullet. DAMMIT!!! I was sooooo mad. I had a ruined wax tube, no bullet, and no spare test bullets. Anyway, the wax tube data remains, just not the bullet data. I'll repeat it in the future. It does, however, seem that the bullet was driven too fast. This is the first factory XTP that I've ever seen fragment. There were lots of pieces of lead core and copper jacket all in the tube, and some on the ground. Load used: Rem nickel brass, CCI 300, 10.8gr 800-X, Hornady 180gr XTP, COAL 1.260", fired from stock G29, CAUTION, SERIOUSLY HOT, WAY OVER BOOK!!!

As I said, the bullet penetrated about 12" before leaving the tube, so I'm guessing around 14-16" of wax penetration would be about right. The wound chamber was about 2" wide, which is very big; about .5" less than the modified bullet.

Pictures of wax tube:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...44862129923026

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...44921256346466

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...44923325987778

180gr XTP Take 2

After I cooled down, and had said some choice words, I realized that I had a whole box of 180gr XTPs loaded up. These, however were loaded with only about 8.5gr of 800-X. I looked at the tube, and realized it was still in pretty good shape, so I put one of those rounds in it. I was amazed at how well it did. It seems like this velocity is what the XTP was made for. Penetration was right around 9" (for about 18" in tissue), and the wound channel was about 1.5" wide. The cool thing about this channel, though, was how it was 1.5" wide for a few inches. Usually, the channel opens up fast, then narrows back down. This one opened fast, then stayed the same size for a few inches. I guess it shows the "controlled expansion" concept of the XTP.

The bullet expanded REALLY well, too. Max expansion was .820", min was .678". Retained mass was a perfect 180.0gr. The jacket did not separate. This seems to be the ideal velocity for the 180gr XTP. Too bad I don't have a chronograph yet. This really makes me wonder if we gain that much by overdriving the bullets. I guess so. We definitely get more penetration, and the massive energy deposit.

Pics of wax tube:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...45592352648194

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...45675705844498

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...45680153820258

Pics of bullet:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...46204651654802

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...46231913332306

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...46244196137970

180gr Gold Dot water jug test

I also found the 180gr Gold Dot that I shot into the water jugs yesterday. It was, for lack of a better word, mangled. It looks like it went through Hell. I guess that's what 10.3grs of 800-X will do (other load specifics are same as above).

Update: this load chronographed a 10-shot average of 1259fps on 8/4/11.

The bullet expanded to a max of 1.236", although that includes a long piece of copper jacket sticking way out to the side. When only measuring the core of the bullet, max expansion was .565", min being .502". Retained mass was 141.9gr. This was not surprising since I found tons of shrapnel all over the place yesterday. It seems that it was way overdriven. However we will see how it performs in the wax tube.

Pictures:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...46596279453954

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...46692681368466

https://picasaweb.google.com/1149007...46662853202930

Please read my previous post, and vote on what type of load you would like to see for the next few tests. The 135gr Nosler and 200gr Black Talon already have loads set for them, and will be on the NUCLEAR side. The 180gr Gold Dot and Starfire, and the 165gr Gold Dot are up for grabs. Please let me know if you would like to see NUCLEAR or just HOT.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 08-05-2011 at 06:48..
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Old 05-18-2011, 07:18   #44
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Personally I find your "testing" interesting, but I don't think you should be going over published data with ANY of the loads, and to approach book max loads with caution, so my vote is for warm, NOT hot and to load up what is referred to as nuclear is just a matter of time and a blown gun waiting to happen.

The Hornady 7th gives a velocity range of 750-1450 fps for the 180 XTP and I would expect it to hold together better then the Gold Dot at 10mm velocity, while I find the high velocity results interesting, I'd also be interested in what kind of performance to expect at slower speeds, say 1000 to 1100 fps, which in my opinion would be a more practical speed for CCW application.

Same for the 155 and 200 gr. XTP which the Hornady 7th lists as 850-1300 and 700-1200 fps respectively.

My ability to "read" pressure signs from examining 10mm brass for signs of over pressure is about as reliable as my predicting the future with a WeeGee board, but what do I know I've only been around guns, reloading, reading and shooting for over 50 years and I've seen my share of blown guns and guy's leaving the range in an ambulance.

To maintain that the "Lawyers" are trying to take away all our fun with watered down reloading data is ridiculous, there is a reason for max loads, it's called pressure testing equipment, and it's greatly improved over the past 20 years, with the obvious prudent fudge factor being built in for the always present unpredictable variations.

Of course I recommend careful workups with book data and especially so if you're using bullets with differing bearing surfaces etc. The 200 gr. Black Talon for example, may or may not have the same pressure curve as a 200 gr. XTP

Interesting stuff by all means but I'd hate to see you or anyone else get the idea that going over book is a safe practice.

"Plenty of people play with fire. Some learn to stop, others are seriously injured and suffer through life."

Last edited by Jitterbug; 05-18-2011 at 07:21..
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Old 05-18-2011, 15:59   #45
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8.5 grains of 800x under a 180 gr XTP (WLP primer) chrony 1135 fps from my G20 so back off the usual adjustment for the G29.

As far as voting for the next projectile, my vote would be for a 165 grain Gold Dot at medium warm velocities 1300 - 1350. In my somewhat limited experience the 165 seems stouter than the 180. It looks beefier around the hollow point so it may be less prone to over expanding and breakup than the larger projectile. I think the 180 is designed to expand well at 40 velocities and seems less substantial at the nose.

800-x data will be scarce, but I imagine that a charge of 9.5 to 9.8 should get you in the ballpark. Of course, I would work up to that.

Last edited by Taterhead; 05-18-2011 at 16:01.. Reason: typo
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Old 05-18-2011, 17:20   #46
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Thanks, guys. Jitterbug, the only powder I have ever pushed over book max is 800-X. I only do so because all of the book maxes list pressure of 30,000 psi, which is well below the 37,500psi max. I've never gone even a tenth of a grain over book max with Blue Dot or Unique (not that I remember off the top of my head). It seems 800-X has an acceptable over book range, though I may just be asking for trouble.

Taterhead, I think you're right about the 165 Gold Dot being stronger. It has a shallow conical hollowpoint while the 180 has a deep hole drilled down the middle to promote expansion. I will likely keep the tests around book max. While I would love to test them several times (low velocity, medium, and high) these tubes take too long to melt/pour to do it that many times.
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Old 05-18-2011, 17:39   #47
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Wow, 21 ... I've been reading these posts through but have been dealing with a sick wife AND daughter, followed by the wife's birthday and subsequent party and barbeque, as well as other stuff... and work. So I'll get in here and give my .02 when I get some free time. VERY interesting about the different results between overdriven 180gr XTP vs warm loaded 180gr XTP.....
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Old 05-20-2011, 19:38   #48
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I'm going to test one or two of the following in the wax tube tomorrow, let me know which you are most interested in seeing: 135gr Nosler JHP, 165gr Gold Dot, 180gr Gold Dot, 180gr Starfire, 200gr Black Talon. I have decided that the 180s and 200gr Black Talon will be loaded with a max book load according to Hornady's newest manual (either with Blue Dot or 800-X depending on which lists the best velocity). The 135 Nosler will likely be around 13.0gr of 800-X, and the 165 Gold Dot load has not been decided upon yet. I'm thinking that I'll do the 135gr Nosler last so I can combine all the wax from both tubes, and make an especially wide 6" tube, since I'm expecting it will result in a VERY wide, short wound channel.

Let me know which ones you guys want to see first!!!

Last edited by 21Carrier; 05-20-2011 at 19:38..
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Old 05-21-2011, 05:41   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
I'm going to test one or two of the following in the wax tube tomorrow, let me know which you are most interested in seeing: 135gr Nosler JHP, 165gr Gold Dot, 180gr Gold Dot, 180gr Starfire, 200gr Black Talon. I have decided that the 180s and 200gr Black Talon will be loaded with a max book load according to Hornady's newest manual (either with Blue Dot or 800-X depending on which lists the best velocity). The 135 Nosler will likely be around 13.0gr of 800-X, and the 165 Gold Dot load has not been decided upon yet. I'm thinking that I'll do the 135gr Nosler last so I can combine all the wax from both tubes, and make an especially wide 6" tube, since I'm expecting it will result in a VERY wide, short wound channel.

Let me know which ones you guys want to see first!!!
For me, that's an easy answer: The BLACK TALON!! There are a lot of things to consider when deciding how much powder to stuff in that case, however, and some of that depends on the length of the bullet. How long is the bullet compared to, say, a 200gr XTP? If its shorter then its probably safe to load it the same way as your 200gr XTP max loads.... I realize you only have one or two Talons, though.

I'd personally be interested in seeing a test with 8.5-9.0gr of IMR-800X (new case, CCI300 or equivalent primer, 1.26" OAL, etc) That should get that bullet up and moving at over 1200fps (at LEAST, depending on pistol) and really show us how "tough" it is. Of course, it would probably be prudent to start at book max using 800X and work up.

The second choice would be the Starfire. I've actually done some expansion tests with a Starfire (in .45ACP many years ago) and it did, in fact, expand perfectly.
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Old 05-21-2011, 13:34   #50
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Ok, I'm gonna test the Black Talon and 180gr Gold Dot in just a little bit. The only problem: I dropped my computer and cracked my screen so it will be out of commission for a week or so. I'll try to do everything with my iPhone but we will see how that goes. So the pics might have to wait til I get the computer back but I'll at least post everything else. The Black Talon will be backed by 8.8gr 800-X. Thats a little lower than what I know is safe for 200gr XTPs so it should be good. The 180gr GD will have 10.3gr 800-X. I'll be back with results around 7-8 tonight!!!
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