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Old 06-02-2011, 12:50   #21
whenmonkeysfly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickE10mm View Post
Yep... totally agreed. DT is good, and honestly, its full power. Book max power, but not nuclear. Good stuff but the issue I have is that they ADVERTISE one thing and you GET something else.
True. I have found Buffalo Bore fairly close to advertized stats and have heard good things about Swamp Fox. But, in reality, if you want REALLY good, full-power loads, you gotta pump it yourself!
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:52   #22
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I agree with your issue. I would have no problem with them posting REAL specs, and being a tad slower than others. You still know you are going to get quality ammo with popular bullets, at or near book max loads. I just have a real problem with paying for a product that does not perform as advertised. My one question is WHY do they obviously lie about the numbers? I see two likely answers. First, they lie because they want people to buy THEIR ammo, and not other brands. Second, they lie to boost the image of the 10mm. The first seriously pisses me off, the second, I'm actually kind of cool with.
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:55   #23
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I certainly think it's cool that we have a number of very knowledgeable 10mm handloaders here on Glock Talk to share numbers and data with!
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Old 06-02-2011, 13:18   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
The first seriously pisses me off, the second, I'm actually kind of cool with.
I'm thinking that they earned a lot of their customers in the beginning and probably initially met their own claims .. but over time, due to either the economy or maybe a lawsuit or insurance claim, started slowly lowering their charges to make their ammo a bit safer. Maybe?
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Old 06-02-2011, 13:19   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whenmonkeysfly View Post
True. I have found Buffalo Bore fairly close to advertized stats and have heard good things about Swamp Fox. But, in reality, if you want REALLY good, full-power loads, you gotta pump it yourself!
YEP! Btw, I've chrono'd the BB 180gr GD from my 5" Razorback and got 1380fps max and average was around 1350. Pretty damn close in my eyes.
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Old 06-02-2011, 17:52   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickE10mm View Post
I'm thinking that they earned a lot of their customers in the beginning and probably initially met their own claims .. but over time, due to either the economy or maybe a lawsuit or insurance claim, started slowly lowering their charges to make their ammo a bit safer. Maybe?
I'll bet this is close to the truth. I've purchased their ammo since day one and I do think the original was hotter.
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Old 06-02-2011, 21:53   #27
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I'll bet this is close to the truth. I've purchased their ammo since day one and I do think the original was hotter.
Yeah, I think Mike has "watered" down his loads because so many folk don't use fully supported chambers (stock Glock) and probably don't know the difference. As 10mm handloaders know, a true full power load in an unsupported chamber will do ugly things to our brass and make them unusable for reloading. And at almost 20 cents a pop, that is not an option for me.
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:14   #28
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I want a 1911 6" long slide so badly...

thanks for the post/info...

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Old 06-08-2011, 12:58   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickE10mm View Post
YEP! Btw, I've chrono'd the BB 180gr GD from my 5" Razorback and got 1380fps max and average was around 1350. Pretty damn close in my eyes.
The BB 180 chronies 1335 in my G20 barrel (4.6") so yes, right in there as far as box flap claims go. Very tight standard deviations on velocities too.
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Old 06-08-2011, 14:08   #30
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Originally Posted by nickE10mm View Post
maybe a lawsuit or insurance claim, started slowly lowering their charges to make their ammo a bit safer. Maybe?
I think this may be dead center.

There is a lot of risk associated with selling someone 180gr ammo that will do 1350+ or 200gr at 1275+.

The problem is that even with exceptional testing and control during manufacture, there are many variables that you lose control of when
you release the ammo to the customer.

Many don't understand the dynamics of a pistol/ammo configuration and make changes to it or the pistol changes as you use it, The barrel gets dirty or other.

Then there is the variances in manufacturing or the pistols, tightness of the barrel/chamber, recoil spring tension etc.

It's easy to get on the wrong side of the pressure capacity/limit of a particular pistol.

Even when you have tested multiple pistols and barrels etc. Not just glocks either. Popular barrel makers have slight chamber variations also. Some of it comes from polishing the ramps for feeding issues and other "fixes" but some is manufacturing variances.

It's a tough arena to operate in. You can blow yourself up but you can't blow somebody else up.

Now the rated vs. actual speed issue is a different horse.

But, with commercial ammo, the market is tough.

The big guys like Win, can sell the silvertip or not, It probably doesn't matter much. They make guns primarily. So they drop back 8-10% from the top loads. But state ratings based on a 6in barrel.
Other big guys are even farther away from the max.

Some, including myself make a choice. I choose to be accurate within reason, of the ratings, It seems some others do also. But that means we're taking on more risk if our rated speeds are at max pressures.

If I dropped my actual speeds down but continued to state the original speeds. I may actually have gained in some areas of the market because
I would not have had the g29 kaboom issue, which sucked the air out of
my (sails)sales.

It is always a choice about the approach. But accurate numbers are important to me. Whatever they may be.

I suppose, in the end it's about tolerances.
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Old 06-08-2011, 14:13   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudrush View Post
I think this may be dead center.

There is a lot of risk associated with selling someone 180gr ammo that will do 1350+ or 200gr at 1275+.

The problem is that even with exceptional testing and control during manufacture, there are many variables that you lose control of when
you release the ammo to the customer.

Many don't understand the dynamics of a pistol/ammo configuration and make changes to it or the pistol changes as you use it, The barrel gets dirty or other.

Then there is the variances in manufacturing or the pistols, tightness of the barrel/chamber, recoil spring tension etc.

It's easy to get on the wrong side of the pressure capacity/limit of a particular pistol.

Even when you have tested multiple pistols and barrels etc. Not just glocks either. Popular barrel makers have slight chamber variations also. Some of it comes from polishing the ramps for feeding issues and other "fixes" but some is manufacturing variances.

It's a tough arena to operate in. You can blow yourself up but you can't blow somebody else up.

Now the rated vs. actual speed issue is a different horse.

But, with commercial ammo, the market is tough.

The big guys like Win, can sell the silvertip or not, It probably doesn't matter much. They make guns primarily. So they drop back 8-10% from the top loads. But state ratings based on a 6in barrel.
Other big guys are even farther away from the max.

Some, including myself make a choice. I choose to be accurate within reason, of the ratings, It seems some others do also. But that means we're taking on more risk if our rated speeds are at max pressures.

If I dropped my actual speeds down but continued to state the original speeds. I may actually have gained in some areas of the market because
I would not have had the g29 kaboom issue, which sucked the air out of
my (sails)sales.

It is always a choice about the approach. But accurate numbers are important to me. Whatever they may be.

I suppose, in the end it's about tolerances.

Yep ... its one thing to reload for one platform and test every aspect or change in a loading ...FOR THAT PISTOL ... and its another issue altogether to test a max load and then toss it out to any yahoo who wants to do the same with their OWN pistol.
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Old 06-08-2011, 14:25   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jitterbug View Post
Good stuff...I wish we could get someone with pressure testing equipment to run some of these 800x loads.

Hogdon? Mudrush?

1350 fps with a 200 gr. WFN is smokin! I second Keg's recommendation for caution.

Maybe I need a 6" 10mm rather then a 4" .44?
I may be able to do some sort of testing for you, But, I can tell you now
you're all over the max as far as rated pressures.

Now, I am not sure of your chamber design but, most well designed firearms have a service factor built into them that will allow you to actually use the max saami. (not glock stock barrels)

Max saami is a max average pressure. Not the absolute max allowed.

With tight/accurate charge control you can live on the edge with out seeing any issues.

But if one aspect of the config changes, you can get into trouble.

200gr wfn at 1350 with 800x, even in a 6in barrel is right on the line. No question, maybe slightly over with the 6in as pressure is still rising with 800x.

Some of the other powders wil be over at 1350.

If you setup ammo for a shorter than 6in barrel, That ammo will probably be to hot for a 6in barrel. The short barrel acts like a pressure relief/limiter.
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Old 06-08-2011, 14:37   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudrush View Post
I may be able to do some sort of testing for you, But, I can tell you now
you're all over the max as far as rated pressures.

Now, I am not sure of your chamber design but, most well designed firearms have a service factor built into them that will allow you to actually use the max saami. (not glock stock barrels)

Max saami is a max average pressure. Not the absolute max allowed.

With tight/accurate charge control you can live on the edge with out seeing any issues.

But if one aspect of the config changes, you can get into trouble.

200gr wfn at 1350 with 800x, even in a 6in barrel is right on the line. No question, maybe slightly over with the 6in as pressure is still rising with 800x.

Some of the other powders wil be over at 1350.

If you setup ammo for a shorter than 6in barrel, That ammo will probably be to hot for a 6in barrel. The short barrel acts like a pressure relief/limiter.
Thank you, Mike, for your insight here. I was guessing that the WFN loads were right on the line and have since decided not to work that load up any further. For that matter, I'll probably stay where I'm at (FPS-wise) on all of these 200gr loads since the extra velocity isn't worth the pressure/risk. I'll most likely start by reducing the loads by a grain or so and working them up a bit, but this time, for accuracy rather than FPS.

There isn't a deer I know of that will take a 200gr XTP at 1250, a 200gr WFN @ 1300+ or a 180gr @ 1350fps and not fall. The nice thing about a 6" barrel is that I shouldn't HAVE to stress the pressure to get great velocities.

Thanks again, Mike
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Old 06-08-2011, 15:18   #34
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Great report & awesome pics, nickE - thanks your hard work in putting it together and congrats on acquiring such a fine 10mm blaster!
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Old 06-08-2011, 16:40   #35
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Great report & awesome pics, nickE - thanks your hard work in putting it together and congrats on acquiring such a fine 10mm blaster!
Thanks agtman! (long time no see buddy)
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Old 06-08-2011, 19:29   #36
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Nick, Thanks for letting us share in your experience and all the data and the gun porn! It was great!
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Old 06-08-2011, 20:40   #37
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My pleasure, Shadow!
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Old 06-08-2011, 21:01   #38
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Great report
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Old 06-08-2011, 21:41   #39
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What an outstanding report and beautiful pistol, I'm glad to see Bob Serva has found a good niche after the DW days.
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Old 06-10-2011, 10:13   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudrush View Post
200gr wfn at 1350 with 800x, even in a 6in barrel is right on the line. No question, maybe slightly over with the 6in as pressure is still rising with 800x.
Could you explain this a bit more? I was under the understanding that pressure will not increase with the longer barrel but rather just affect the bullet over a LONGER period of time. ??

Quote:
Some of the other powders wil be over at 1350.
For the record, I don't go over book max with powders other than 800X
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