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Old 06-15-2011, 09:44   #41
Japle
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Quote:
Posted by BradD:
As a strong atheist evangelist (?--there's gotta be a good word for that. atheigelist atheistgelist?! LOL), you'd hate for Japle to go listen to a few hours of actual explanation and perhaps start wondering if he has run down the wrong snake hole due to poor understanding when he was younger.
I've listened to many hours of people trying to explain Biblical contradictions. It always comes down to the same old hooey.

"That's not what it really says", followed by a line of BS based on something that's not in Genesis at all, but sounds reasonable to the speaker.

"We're only human and have no business questioning the inspired word of God". I call this the "We are not worthy" answer.
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:42   #42
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Why do the pagans and atheists spend so much time trying to prove religious people are wrong?
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:21   #43
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Originally Posted by Mushinto View Post
Why do the pagans and atheists spend so much time trying to prove religious people are wrong?
Have you asked snowbird why he spends so much time arguing against Islam?

Speaking for myself, here are a few reasons:
  • Religious faith is dangerous.
  • Religion is not compatible with a sustainable world civilization.
  • The religious (certainly Christians) insist on pushing their morals on society as a whole (stem cell research, homosexuality, contraception, abortion).
  • Interference with science education and attempts to understand the world/universe that we live in. To many religious people/groups science is a threat to how literally they interpret Genesis, so science must be undermined. Science is not needed because the Bible has the answers, God did it.
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:53   #44
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Originally Posted by rgregoryb View Post
I'll bet you are going to say Moses, incredibly he wrote about his own death.....how did he do that?

J (for the writer or writers who referred to God as Jahweh/Yahweh, "the Lord"), E (for the writer or writers who referred to God as Elohim, "God"), P (for the writer or writers who were concerned with priestly matters) and D (for the writer or writers of Deuteronomy).
JEDP
UM, Joshua wrote the ending of Deuteronomy.
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:59   #45
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Why do the pagans and atheists spend so much time trying to prove religious people are wrong?
It isn't so much trying to prove them wrong as it is getting them to support their claims with objective, verifiable evidence.
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Old 06-15-2011, 12:17   #46
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ksg0245, I think what you mean is "trying to get them to support their claims with objective, verifiable evidence".

They can't actually do it, but challenging them to try keeps them on their toes.
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Old 06-15-2011, 13:49   #47
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ksg0245, I think what you mean is "trying to get them to support their claims with objective, verifiable evidence".

They can't actually do it, but challenging them to try keeps them on their toes.
Right on both counts.
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Old 06-15-2011, 13:57   #48
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The traditional Jewish interpretation is that Genesis is written in parable form. A story, that while true, is meant to give insight rather than a scientific record.
Well, a parable does not indicate who or what made stars. As far as I'm concerned, current scientific knowledge and research indicates that either the stars were created, or although scientifically impossible, stars formed all by themselves anyway.

Genesis Chap 1 indicates that the Creator made the stars by using His Word. True science cannot refute this claim/assertion, and by the same token, true science can and does prove, beyond all doubt, the stars are actually there.

Go figure huh?
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Old 06-15-2011, 14:29   #49
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Well, a parable does not indicate who or what made stars. As far as I'm concerned, current scientific knowledge and research indicates that either the stars were created, or although scientifically impossible, stars formed all by themselves anyway.
It isn't scientifically impossible, we can see stars in various stages of formation all through the cosmos.
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Genesis Chap 1 indicates that the Creator made the stars by using His Word. True science cannot refute this claim/assertion, and by the same token, true science can and does prove, beyond all doubt, the stars are actually there.
How is science supposed to refute "the Creator made the stars by using His Word."? What is testable about that claim? What science can, and does, do is show how stars can form without requiring supernatural intervention.
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Go figure huh?
I'm still waiting for you to reveal the great secret of Lucy's knee, it's only been four years so far but Duke Nukem Forever finally came out so I suppose anything is possible.
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Old 06-15-2011, 15:02   #50
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Well, a parable does not indicate who or what made stars.
Doesn't it say "he also made the stars"?

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As far as I'm concerned, current scientific knowledge and research indicates that either the stars were created, or although scientifically impossible, stars formed all by themselves anyway.
Could you please provide links to both the research demonstrating the impossibility of stars forming by themselves, and the research indicating they were "created"?

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Genesis Chap 1 indicates that the Creator made the stars by using His Word. True science cannot refute this claim/assertion,
That's all it is; an unsupported assertion by an unknown long dead author.

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and by the same token, true science can and does prove, beyond all doubt, the stars are actually there.
It does so by observation and experimentation. Have any deities been observed by any scientists?

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Go figure huh?
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Old 06-15-2011, 17:07   #51
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Have you read the Epic of Gilgamesh? The whole thing starts out with Gilgamesh abusing the people.
Have you picked up a basic ancient history primer? The people of the Mesopotamian region typically documented their kings and gods, and refused document negative events. On the other hand in scripture, if a king did evil, it was very well documented. The Old Tesament is very explicit about all wrong doing from the higest to the lowest, sparing no one from rebuke.

You will not find that type of documentation in an historical record in that region.
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Old 06-15-2011, 18:02   #52
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Have you picked up a basic ancient history primer? The people of the Mesopotamian region typically documented their kings and gods, and refused document negative events. On the other hand in scripture, if a king did evil, it was very well documented. The Old Tesament is very explicit about all wrong doing from the higest to the lowest, sparing no one from rebuke.
Except God who gets a free pass, no matter what he does.
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Old 06-15-2011, 19:35   #53
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Except God who gets a free pass, no matter what he does.
Ah, yes. The God that created life and everything that you have and own. The God who allowed free will, even if it meant bad decisions. The God who came to earth, was born in extreme poverty in an animal food troph in a cave. The same God who lived in the poorest part of the country in which he took carnate form. The same God who lived in a blended family, and wasn't appreciated by his step-brothers. The same God who was slandered, maligned, while offering healing and salvation. The same God who was beaten, tortured, and murdered to provide a way of escape for you and everyone else.

The same God, who despite all those things you reject and slander. You mean that God?
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Old 06-15-2011, 21:00   #54
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Have you picked up a basic ancient history primer?
Quite a few actually.
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The people of the Mesopotamian region typically documented their kings and gods, and refused document negative events. On the other hand in scripture, if a king did evil, it was very well documented.
That's simply untrue, I've already cited one example that is contrary to your claim.
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The Old Tesament is very explicit about all wrong doing from the higest to the lowest, sparing no one from rebuke.
And they all follow the same theme, straying from proper worship of the biblical God. They aren't historical accounts, they're story to reinforce the need to worship God and follow the commandments contained in scripture.

As for the claim that negative stories about monarchs aren't recorded, it is simply untrue. There are numerous instances of negative accounts regarding rulers in the area, take the stories of Naram-Sin as an example.
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You will not find that type of documentation in an historical record in that region.
Yes, we do. Lugalanda of Lagash is another example, attested to in the primary source material who isn't portrayed in a flattering way.
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Old 06-15-2011, 21:35   #55
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Ah, yes. The God that created life and everything that you have and own. The God who allowed free will, even if it meant bad decisions. The God who came to earth, was born in extreme poverty in an animal food troph in a cave. The same God who lived in the poorest part of the country in which he took carnate form. The same God who lived in a blended family, and wasn't appreciated by his step-brothers. The same God who was slandered, maligned, while offering healing and salvation. The same God who was beaten, tortured, and murdered to provide a way of escape for you and everyone else.

The same God, who despite all those things you reject and slander. You mean that God?
I mean the hypocritical God who says one thing and then does something else. I mean the God who has a temper tantrum about the Garden of Eden and holds a grudge against the descendants of Adam, Eve, and that ancient snake, indefinitely but tells me to forgive seven times seventy. I mean the God who says he loves me but threatens to send me to Hell if I don't worship him even though he gives no concrete evidence that he exists. I mean the God that allows innocent children to die horrible deaths every day and does nothing about it but claims he is a God of love. I mean the God who takes credit for everything good and blames everything bad on humans and Satan.
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Old 06-15-2011, 22:37   #56
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I mean the hypocritical God who says one thing and then does something else. I mean the God who has a temper tantrum about the Garden of Eden and holds a grudge against the descendants of Adam, Eve, and that ancient snake, indefinitely but tells me to forgive seven times seventy. I mean the God who says he loves me but threatens to send me to Hell if I don't worship him even though he gives no concrete evidence that he exists. I mean the God that allows innocent children to die horrible deaths every day and does nothing about it but claims he is a God of love. I mean the God who takes credit for everything good and blames everything bad on humans and Satan.
Didnt He give concrete evidence to Adam? If He did either Adam didnt believe Him or wanted his own way.
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Old 06-16-2011, 06:26   #57
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Didnt He give concrete evidence to Adam? If He did either Adam didnt believe Him or wanted his own way.
This argument is based on a monumentally invalid assumption.
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Old 06-16-2011, 07:19   #58
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Didnt He give concrete evidence to Adam?
I'm aware of the myth. Where is the evidence that Adam actual existed? Before you say it, the Bible is not evidence that Adam existed. A book of mythology is not evidence that a myth is fact.

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If He did either Adam didnt believe Him or wanted his own way.
Where is this statement coming from?
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:53   #59
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It isn't scientifically impossible, we can see stars in various stages of formation all through the cosmos. ...
The book of Genesis, IIRC, does not state that stars are "in various stages of formation." In Gen, beginning at verse 14 (i.e., THE Forth day) and ending here with verse 19, but while paying particular attention to the last part of verse 16, the Holy Bible states the following:
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

As I'm sure you will have to agree, these verses concerning star creation in Genesis make no implication that stars are "in various stages of formation," but rather that He made the stars also. Period.

Even so, -am,- if you know of one star that science has observed forming, or that is "in [a] various stage of formation," please give me a link or reference to this star as that very well may be a contradiction to the verse in Genesis.
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Old 06-16-2011, 12:26   #60
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Doesn't it say "he also made the stars"? ...
Technically, Gen 1:16 states, He made the stars also. However, this is not a parable, this is a statement of fact detailing a certain event at a certain point/day in the creation process.

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... Could you please provide links... the research indicating [stars] were "created"? ...
I'll start with your last point first, as I never stated such.

I reiterate, all available research I could find indicates that stars cannot form by themselves. I've never said that research indicates they were created. The last part of Gen 1:16 states they were created. Science/Research cannot disprove this assertion.

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... Could you please provide links to both the research demonstrating the impossibility of stars forming by themselves ...
The scientific evidence is overwhelmingly against the star theory formation, shall we begin with the "big bang" explosion and the impossibility of stars to form at all?
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“If the [big bang's] fireball had expanded only .1 percent faster, the present rate of expansion would have been 3 x 103 times as great. Had the initial expansion rate been 0.1 percent less, the Universe would have expanded to only 3 x 10-6 of its present radius before collapsing.

At this maximum radius the density of ordinary matter would have been 10-12 grm/m3, over 1016 times as great as the present mass-density. No stars could have formed in such a Universe, for it would not have existed long enough to form stars.”—*R.H. Dickey, Gravitation
and the Universe (1969), p. 62.
But if you find something to contradict Gen 1:16, please let me know.
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