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Old 06-15-2011, 17:07   #51
Kingarthurhk
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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
Have you read the Epic of Gilgamesh? The whole thing starts out with Gilgamesh abusing the people.
Have you picked up a basic ancient history primer? The people of the Mesopotamian region typically documented their kings and gods, and refused document negative events. On the other hand in scripture, if a king did evil, it was very well documented. The Old Tesament is very explicit about all wrong doing from the higest to the lowest, sparing no one from rebuke.

You will not find that type of documentation in an historical record in that region.
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Old 06-15-2011, 18:02   #52
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Have you picked up a basic ancient history primer? The people of the Mesopotamian region typically documented their kings and gods, and refused document negative events. On the other hand in scripture, if a king did evil, it was very well documented. The Old Tesament is very explicit about all wrong doing from the higest to the lowest, sparing no one from rebuke.
Except God who gets a free pass, no matter what he does.
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Old 06-15-2011, 19:35   #53
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Except God who gets a free pass, no matter what he does.
Ah, yes. The God that created life and everything that you have and own. The God who allowed free will, even if it meant bad decisions. The God who came to earth, was born in extreme poverty in an animal food troph in a cave. The same God who lived in the poorest part of the country in which he took carnate form. The same God who lived in a blended family, and wasn't appreciated by his step-brothers. The same God who was slandered, maligned, while offering healing and salvation. The same God who was beaten, tortured, and murdered to provide a way of escape for you and everyone else.

The same God, who despite all those things you reject and slander. You mean that God?
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Old 06-15-2011, 21:00   #54
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Have you picked up a basic ancient history primer?
Quite a few actually.
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The people of the Mesopotamian region typically documented their kings and gods, and refused document negative events. On the other hand in scripture, if a king did evil, it was very well documented.
That's simply untrue, I've already cited one example that is contrary to your claim.
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The Old Tesament is very explicit about all wrong doing from the higest to the lowest, sparing no one from rebuke.
And they all follow the same theme, straying from proper worship of the biblical God. They aren't historical accounts, they're story to reinforce the need to worship God and follow the commandments contained in scripture.

As for the claim that negative stories about monarchs aren't recorded, it is simply untrue. There are numerous instances of negative accounts regarding rulers in the area, take the stories of Naram-Sin as an example.
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You will not find that type of documentation in an historical record in that region.
Yes, we do. Lugalanda of Lagash is another example, attested to in the primary source material who isn't portrayed in a flattering way.
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Old 06-15-2011, 21:35   #55
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Ah, yes. The God that created life and everything that you have and own. The God who allowed free will, even if it meant bad decisions. The God who came to earth, was born in extreme poverty in an animal food troph in a cave. The same God who lived in the poorest part of the country in which he took carnate form. The same God who lived in a blended family, and wasn't appreciated by his step-brothers. The same God who was slandered, maligned, while offering healing and salvation. The same God who was beaten, tortured, and murdered to provide a way of escape for you and everyone else.

The same God, who despite all those things you reject and slander. You mean that God?
I mean the hypocritical God who says one thing and then does something else. I mean the God who has a temper tantrum about the Garden of Eden and holds a grudge against the descendants of Adam, Eve, and that ancient snake, indefinitely but tells me to forgive seven times seventy. I mean the God who says he loves me but threatens to send me to Hell if I don't worship him even though he gives no concrete evidence that he exists. I mean the God that allows innocent children to die horrible deaths every day and does nothing about it but claims he is a God of love. I mean the God who takes credit for everything good and blames everything bad on humans and Satan.
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Old 06-15-2011, 22:37   #56
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I mean the hypocritical God who says one thing and then does something else. I mean the God who has a temper tantrum about the Garden of Eden and holds a grudge against the descendants of Adam, Eve, and that ancient snake, indefinitely but tells me to forgive seven times seventy. I mean the God who says he loves me but threatens to send me to Hell if I don't worship him even though he gives no concrete evidence that he exists. I mean the God that allows innocent children to die horrible deaths every day and does nothing about it but claims he is a God of love. I mean the God who takes credit for everything good and blames everything bad on humans and Satan.
Didnt He give concrete evidence to Adam? If He did either Adam didnt believe Him or wanted his own way.
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Old 06-16-2011, 06:26   #57
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Didnt He give concrete evidence to Adam? If He did either Adam didnt believe Him or wanted his own way.
This argument is based on a monumentally invalid assumption.
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Old 06-16-2011, 07:19   #58
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Didnt He give concrete evidence to Adam?
I'm aware of the myth. Where is the evidence that Adam actual existed? Before you say it, the Bible is not evidence that Adam existed. A book of mythology is not evidence that a myth is fact.

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If He did either Adam didnt believe Him or wanted his own way.
Where is this statement coming from?
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:53   #59
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It isn't scientifically impossible, we can see stars in various stages of formation all through the cosmos. ...
The book of Genesis, IIRC, does not state that stars are "in various stages of formation." In Gen, beginning at verse 14 (i.e., THE Forth day) and ending here with verse 19, but while paying particular attention to the last part of verse 16, the Holy Bible states the following:
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

As I'm sure you will have to agree, these verses concerning star creation in Genesis make no implication that stars are "in various stages of formation," but rather that He made the stars also. Period.

Even so, -am,- if you know of one star that science has observed forming, or that is "in [a] various stage of formation," please give me a link or reference to this star as that very well may be a contradiction to the verse in Genesis.
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Old 06-16-2011, 12:26   #60
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Doesn't it say "he also made the stars"? ...
Technically, Gen 1:16 states, He made the stars also. However, this is not a parable, this is a statement of fact detailing a certain event at a certain point/day in the creation process.

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... Could you please provide links... the research indicating [stars] were "created"? ...
I'll start with your last point first, as I never stated such.

I reiterate, all available research I could find indicates that stars cannot form by themselves. I've never said that research indicates they were created. The last part of Gen 1:16 states they were created. Science/Research cannot disprove this assertion.

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... Could you please provide links to both the research demonstrating the impossibility of stars forming by themselves ...
The scientific evidence is overwhelmingly against the star theory formation, shall we begin with the "big bang" explosion and the impossibility of stars to form at all?
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“If the [big bang's] fireball had expanded only .1 percent faster, the present rate of expansion would have been 3 x 103 times as great. Had the initial expansion rate been 0.1 percent less, the Universe would have expanded to only 3 x 10-6 of its present radius before collapsing.

At this maximum radius the density of ordinary matter would have been 10-12 grm/m3, over 1016 times as great as the present mass-density. No stars could have formed in such a Universe, for it would not have existed long enough to form stars.”—*R.H. Dickey, Gravitation
and the Universe (1969), p. 62.
But if you find something to contradict Gen 1:16, please let me know.
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Old 06-16-2011, 15:36   #61
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
The book of Genesis, IIRC, does not state that stars are "in various stages of formation."
Looking up in the sky tells us the opposite.
Quote:
In Gen, beginning at verse 14 (i.e., THE Forth day) and ending here with verse 19, but while paying particular attention to the last part of verse 16, the Holy Bible states the following:
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

As I'm sure you will have to agree, these verses concerning star creation in Genesis make no implication that stars are "in various stages of formation," but rather that He made the stars also. Period.
Sure, I'll agree with that, but it doesn't change the fact that we can observe stars in various states of both formation and disintegration by observing the world around us.
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Even so, -am,- if you know of one star that science has observed forming, or that is "in [a] various stage of formation," please give me a link or reference to this star as that very well may be a contradiction to the verse in Genesis.
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Old 06-16-2011, 15:38   #62
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I reiterate, all available research I could find indicates that stars cannot form by themselves.
Could you please provide a link to this research. I'm especially interested given that the simple expedient of looking through a telescope tells us exactly the opposite.

And please, if you could focus on research published in peer reviewed scientific journals I think it would save us all a lot of time.
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Old 06-16-2011, 15:59   #63
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I'm aware of the myth. Where is the evidence that Adam actual existed? Before you say it, the Bible is not evidence that Adam existed. A book of mythology is not evidence that a myth is fact.



Where is this statement coming from?
Ok, so it is a myth to you. But weren't you ranting about a garden where God communed with a man and a woman? Isnt that concrete evidence enough for them by your own argument? When they broke that "communion" willfully, they chose to lose that concrete evidence. But He still made a covering for them regardless.Some people reject even the covering. I asked why Adam would break this communion with God. Was it because of unbelief or because he wanted the knowlege of God, but by eating from a "certain tree" and not from God Himself? The point isnt whether or not Adam existed but what you would have done in his place. Given evidence and given paradise. Only one Man got it right.
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Old 06-16-2011, 16:29   #64
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This argument is based on a monumentally invalid assumption.
The only reason for assumption is doubt. Study doubt, get more of the same. But if your wrong, how much more of a "monumentally invalid assumption" can there be? There is really no reason for argument until there is doubt is there?
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Old 06-16-2011, 16:30   #65
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Looking up in the sky tells us the opposite.
Sure, I'll agree with that, but it doesn't change the fact that we can observe stars in various states of both formation and disintegration by observing the world around us.
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Ummmm.... with all due respect, I thought we were going to discuss the discipline(s) of actual science with regards to scientists and these so called contradictions occurring in the book of Genesis, which by the way, these photos you have posted on the thread, do they actually, irrefutably, and scientifically, show NEW stars forming and or new stars that are "in various states of formation?"
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Old 06-16-2011, 16:51   #66
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Could you please provide a link to this research. I'm especially interested given that the simple expedient of looking through a telescope tells us exactly the opposite.

And please, if you could focus on research published in peer reviewed scientific journals I think it would save us all a lot of time.
I honestly believe that your simple minded regards to an 'expedient' is being taken far to seriously for a ride, from your personalized agenda, as real science indicates a diametrically opposing view.

In fact, real, actual science wholly controverts your assertions, within the confines of both the Book of Genesis and commonly accepted, non-perverted science. Categorically speaking, your assertions concerning star formation, and additionally as well as your laughable implication(s) that real science gives us proof that stellar/star evolution is a fact due to some photographic pinpoints of parts of our vast cosmos is a complete and total fairy tale based on the fact that no human eye, even with the help of a telescope, has ever witnessed a star's formation or "birth."

Fingerprints from Rainbows

Mercury, September/October 2004 Table of Contents

by Ben Bova
spectrum
Courtesy of J. White

Astronomers are hunters, detectives who track down the elusive workings of nature. Their "suspects" and "witnesses" are the points of light in the sky that we call the stars. How do you interrogate a suspect that is light-years away from you? Even in the most powerful telescopes, all you can see of the stars are mere pinpoints of light. Telescopes allow us to see more stars, to peer deeper into the vast darkness. But each star remains a tiny pinpoint of light—except, of course, for the Sun.
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Old 06-16-2011, 17:28   #67
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
I honestly believe that your simple minded regards to an 'expedient' is being taken far to seriously for a ride, from your personalized agenda, as real science indicates a diametrically opposing view.

In fact, real, actual science wholly controverts your assertions, within the confines of both the Book of Genesis and commonly accepted, non-perverted science. Categorically speaking, your assertions concerning star formation, and additionally as well as your laughable implication(s) that real science gives us proof that stellar/star evolution is a fact due to some photographic pinpoints of parts of our vast cosmos is a complete and total fairy tale based on the fact that no human eye, even with the help of a telescope, has ever witnessed a star's formation or "birth."

Fingerprints from Rainbows

Mercury, September/October 2004 Table of Contents

by Ben Bova
spectrum
Courtesy of J. White

Astronomers are hunters, detectives who track down the elusive workings of nature. Their "suspects" and "witnesses" are the points of light in the sky that we call the stars. How do you interrogate a suspect that is light-years away from you? Even in the most powerful telescopes, all you can see of the stars are mere pinpoints of light. Telescopes allow us to see more stars, to peer deeper into the vast darkness. But each star remains a tiny pinpoint of light—except, of course, for the Sun.
You're basing your argument on a philosopher, not a scientist, from 175 years ago?
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Old 06-16-2011, 17:35   #68
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The scientific evidence is overwhelmingly against the star theory formation, shall we begin with the "big bang" explosion and the impossibility of stars to form at all?
Actually quite a lot is know about the birth, life and death of stars.

Here's an explanation with pretty pictures and everything.


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Old 06-16-2011, 17:40   #69
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Posted by Snapper2:
Didnt He give concrete evidence to Adam? If He did either Adam didnt believe Him or wanted his own way.
Quote:
Reply by Japle:
This argument is based on a monumentally invalid assumption.
Quote:
Response by Snapper:
The only reason for assumption is doubt. Study doubt, get more of the same. But if your [sic] wrong, how much more of a "monumentally invalid assumption" can there be? There is really no reason for argument until there is doubt is there?
The reason for assumption is ignorance. If you don’t know, you fall back on assumption.

I’m not sure how you’d study doubt, except from a philosophical perspective.
I’m pretty sure that if you study invalid assumptions, you’ll find yourself doubting the conclusions.

If I’m wrong, then everything we’ve learned about paleoanthropology, geology, ancient history, DNA and a bunch of other well-established sciences in the last 200 years is wrong.

I’d say that assuming a mythical story is more accurate than all that science is really, really invalid.
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Old 06-16-2011, 17:41   #70
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Ok, so it is a myth to you. But weren't you ranting about a garden where God communed with a man and a woman? Isnt that concrete evidence enough for them by your own argument? When they broke that "communion" willfully, they chose to lose that concrete evidence. But He still made a covering for them regardless.Some people reject even the covering. I asked why Adam would break this communion with God. Was it because of unbelief or because he wanted the knowlege of God, but by eating from a "certain tree" and not from God Himself?
Since Adam lacked knowledge of good and evil before eating that fruit, he was guiltless. He was punished for his ignorance. He was ignorant because God made him ignorant and tried to keep him ignorant. The fault lies with God, not with Adam.

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The point isnt whether or not Adam existed but what you would have done in his place.
Why is that? You're attempting to change the subject.
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Old 06-16-2011, 18:22   #71
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
Since Adam lacked knowledge of good and evil before eating that fruit, he was guiltless. He was punished for his ignorance. He was ignorant because God made him ignorant and tried to keep him ignorant. The fault lies with God, not with Adam.


Why is that? You're attempting to change the subject.
And what is wrong with never knowing evil? Do you need to know Dhamer's eating habits by watching him prepare a victim and devouring them in every gory second of the act? How, is knowing evil worthwhile? He was not punished for ignorance, but for willful disobedience. Because of that, as the leader of the earth, it was surrendered to Satan who took the form of a serpent. And he has been running amok ever since, causing disease and destruction while merrily blamming it all on God.

I guess it must be nice to be able to rob banks and blame it on the police, and have people believe you.

You, this very day, choose your own fate, just as Adam chose his. However, Adam is saved in the same manner you have at your disposal, the sacrifice of that same God you malign.

Would you be tortured to death to save anyone? He did it to save everyone. Considering He created us, we rightly belong to Him. It is not just anyone who would be willing to endure what He did for something created.
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Old 06-16-2011, 18:40   #72
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Since Adam lacked knowledge of good and evil before eating that fruit, he was guiltless. He was punished for his ignorance. He was ignorant because God made him ignorant and tried to keep him ignorant. The fault lies with God, not with Adam.
The statement "good and evil" admits that there was evil(without dominion) in a good place(the garden). Why do you find God at fault when He was trying to keep someone ignorant of evil? God didnt have to tell Adam he was guilty, he experienced it.
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Old 06-16-2011, 18:52   #73
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1 John 4:7-21,"Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."
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Old 06-16-2011, 19:01   #74
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Originally Posted by Japle View Post

If I’m wrong, then everything we’ve learned about paleoanthropology, geology, ancient history, DNA and a bunch of other well-established sciences in the last 200 years is wrong.
So if the world is millions of years old. And we're basing what we believe on what we've learned in the last 200yrs. And before that they based it on the prior 200yrs and so on and so on, are we the apex generation that has it right? "I might not be able to tell you whats right, but I'll sure tell you what aint"
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Old 06-16-2011, 20:20   #75
ArtificialGrape
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Originally Posted by Snapper2 View Post
So if the world is millions of years old. And we're basing what we believe on what we've learned in the last 200yrs. And before that they based it on the prior 200yrs and so on and so on, are we the apex generation that has it right? "I might not be able to tell you whats right, but I'll sure tell you what aint"
How old do you believe (need?) the earth to be?

What age can you reconcile with your faith? 6,015? 10,000? 50,000? 100,000? 1,000,000? 4,540,000,000?

Many devout Christians have managed to accept an old earth without diminishing their faith.

I think that I'll spinoff a related thread as well.

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