Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-25-2011, 15:39   #1
whenmonkeysfly
CLM Number 249
Charter Lifetime Member
 
whenmonkeysfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 360


10mm Feeding Issue

This was originally posted on the "Reloading 101" Thread. Steve suggested I post it as a new thread, so here goes:

I've been reloading for about five years now. I started on a Forster CO-AX and eventually broke down and bought a Dillon 650XL a couple of years ago. Love both machines! I primarily load 10mm on the Dillon. I'm shooting and loading probably 1K of 10mm month. I have several Dillon "Quick Change" Tool Head/Powder Measures setup with favorite powders, bullet types etc. I shoot 10mm Glocks, Dan Wessons, Wilson Combat and have a couple of Smith and Wesson 610's 6 1/2" (cannons, they shoot anything!). All semi-autos have match barrels, Glocks have KKM Precision/Jarvis/Lone Wolf Barrels with full chamber support. I've tuned recoil springs (Wolff and/or Wilson) to accommodate my loads accordingly.

My question/problem: OAL and Failure to Feed issues. All magazines are new. Fixed with the Glocks by shortening the OAL to ~1.245 (Max for 10mm is 1.260). Problem is much better with Dan Wesson's and not a problem with the Wilson Combat now that I have shortened the OAL. I use a taper crimp of .422. Loads are well within "Maximum" loadings for the 10mm and chronograph as expected. I primarily use Montana Gold CMJ's, FMJ's or JHP's. JHP's seem to feed more consistently. When measuring factory loads like Double Tap, I get OAL's all over the place, but consistently between 1.243 to 1.253. I have a Dillon Max Cartridge Gauge and check all my rounds through it. I also randomly check rounds for crimp and OAL with calipers. I need my rounds/guns to be 100%.

Any suggestions, tips or feedback would be appreciated.

-Jay (whenmonkeysfly)
__________________
Navy Corpsman, 1971-1975; NRA Patron Life Member; The 10mm "...more energy at 100 yards than a .45 ACP at the muzzle." - Massad Ayoob quoting Col. Jeff Cooper
whenmonkeysfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 15:41   #2
whenmonkeysfly
CLM Number 249
Charter Lifetime Member
 
whenmonkeysfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 360


ZombieSteve,

All are flush or slightly below in cartridge gauge and sit in barrel hood like the picture below:

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...bilitiesxn.jpg

Rounds in the Dan Wesson 1911 10mm seem to get stuck nose-diving in to the hood of the barrel. Feed ramps on the 1911's are significantly steeper than on my Glock barrels. All have done much better with polishing and then shortening the cartridge OAL. Springs are all good/new. I've been experimenting with 20 to 24 pound recoil springs and different loadings. My Glock 20 with a 6" KKM Precision Barrel now works 100% .

I guess I'm just trying to rule-out problems with my handloads. I have generally had more feed problems when I loaded my rounds to maximum OAL (checked to make sure they weren't over max with a case gauge and caliper).

Thought I throw this out to the handloaders on the GT forum since I think we have a lot of experience here. (I've got a bunch of Double Tap and Buffalo Bore, but I really don't want to shoot it all up doing function tests on my guns... kind of my emergency stash.) Plus my handloads are more consistent than most factory overall.

I know you, Colorado and others here have a lot of experience reloading so I'm hoping for a collective, problem-solving solution.
__________________
Navy Corpsman, 1971-1975; NRA Patron Life Member; The 10mm "...more energy at 100 yards than a .45 ACP at the muzzle." - Massad Ayoob quoting Col. Jeff Cooper

Last edited by whenmonkeysfly; 07-29-2011 at 14:28.. Reason: Picture
whenmonkeysfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 15:50   #3
whenmonkeysfly
CLM Number 249
Charter Lifetime Member
 
whenmonkeysfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 360


Pictures of Barrel, Hood, Round

Here:

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...arrelHood2.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...BarrelHood.jpg

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...AL/10mmOAL.jpg
__________________
Navy Corpsman, 1971-1975; NRA Patron Life Member; The 10mm "...more energy at 100 yards than a .45 ACP at the muzzle." - Massad Ayoob quoting Col. Jeff Cooper

Last edited by whenmonkeysfly; 07-26-2011 at 05:14..
whenmonkeysfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 15:52   #4
whenmonkeysfly
CLM Number 249
Charter Lifetime Member
 
whenmonkeysfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 360


Could this be a Dan Wesson 1911 10mm issue?
__________________
Navy Corpsman, 1971-1975; NRA Patron Life Member; The 10mm "...more energy at 100 yards than a .45 ACP at the muzzle." - Massad Ayoob quoting Col. Jeff Cooper
whenmonkeysfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 16:48   #5
whenmonkeysfly
CLM Number 249
Charter Lifetime Member
 
whenmonkeysfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 360


Go, No Go and my handloaded 10mm - 1.245 OAL

Go:

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...Chamber/Go.jpg

No Go:

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...amber/NoGo.jpg

My 10mm @ 1.245 in Dan Wesson 1911 10mm Razorback:

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...dCartridge.jpg
__________________
Navy Corpsman, 1971-1975; NRA Patron Life Member; The 10mm "...more energy at 100 yards than a .45 ACP at the muzzle." - Massad Ayoob quoting Col. Jeff Cooper
whenmonkeysfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 17:54   #6
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,336
Damn, Jay your rounds shouldn't be a problem! They fit the gauge they should run.
Is this just with the Dan Wesson or others as well?
What about the magazines themselves? Have the lips sprung outward possibly?
What about magazine fit? I have heard of some fitting too deep into the magwell.
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member
_The_Shadow is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 18:12   #7
whenmonkeysfly
CLM Number 249
Charter Lifetime Member
 
whenmonkeysfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 360


Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
Damn, Jay your rounds shouldn't be a problem! They fit the gauge they should run.
Is this just with the Dan Wesson or others as well?
What about the magazines themselves? Have the lips sprung outward possibly?
What about magazine fit? I have heard of some fitting too deep into the magwell.
New magazines, Dan Wesson with metal followers and Wilson Combat with plastic followers. Dan Wesson's work better in the Dan Wessons than in Wilson Combat and vise versa. Mag lips are fine. I spent some more time polishing the barrel feed ramp, chamber, and chamber hood. It's gotten better since I shortened the OAL, but still a few FTF's last time out.

Figured my 10mm buddies here on GT could offer some possible insights. Not sure about fitting too deep into the magwell. Good thought! Thanks!
__________________
Navy Corpsman, 1971-1975; NRA Patron Life Member; The 10mm "...more energy at 100 yards than a .45 ACP at the muzzle." - Massad Ayoob quoting Col. Jeff Cooper
whenmonkeysfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 18:13   #8
whenmonkeysfly
CLM Number 249
Charter Lifetime Member
 
whenmonkeysfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 360


My Wilson and Glocks don't have the problem since I shortened the OAL to 1.245.
__________________
Navy Corpsman, 1971-1975; NRA Patron Life Member; The 10mm "...more energy at 100 yards than a .45 ACP at the muzzle." - Massad Ayoob quoting Col. Jeff Cooper
whenmonkeysfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 18:22   #9
Meathead9
Senior Member
 
Meathead9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The PRK
Posts: 1,220
Maybe try a little more crimp? I have crimped down as low as .416 with some of my loads, but more consistently to .418-.419. I have no experience with 1911's, so my advice is limited. Good luck man.

What spring weight are you using with the DW?

Have you shot factory rounds through it?


-MEAT
__________________
GEN 3 20LS/20SF/21SF/30SF/23/34/26
GEN 4 17/19/21/34/35

Last edited by Meathead9; 07-25-2011 at 18:26..
Meathead9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 18:22   #10
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,336
I think I read where McNett actually loaded some bullets to 1.242", I think those were the 200 and 220 WFNGC's, I don't have any of his 10mm stuff to measure, the only DT stuff I have is the 9x25Dillon.
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member
_The_Shadow is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 19:02   #11
whenmonkeysfly
CLM Number 249
Charter Lifetime Member
 
whenmonkeysfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 360


Mike's DT 10mm run much shorter than 1.260. They are consistently between 1.243 to 1.253.

Meat,

Tried more crimp earlier and had more problems, but not as much as you're suggesting - may be worth a try. My Glocks/Wilson are running fine with 1.245 OAL and a .422 taper crimp. I'll keep experimenting.... Beginning to think its the Wessons.... in 10mm....
__________________
Navy Corpsman, 1971-1975; NRA Patron Life Member; The 10mm "...more energy at 100 yards than a .45 ACP at the muzzle." - Massad Ayoob quoting Col. Jeff Cooper
whenmonkeysfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 01:30   #12
21Carrier
Until I Gota 29
 
21Carrier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hoover, AL
Posts: 3,037
My experience is limited to Glocks, but the ONLY feeding problems I've ever had were with heavier than stock springs (with Glock barrels and all rounds loaded to 1.258-1.260"). My theory is that they just speed up the return to battery so much that feeding suffers. This seems to get exacerbated when using "match" barrels, or anything tighter than factory. Try going back to factory spring weights. Another option would be stiffer mag springs. Many people say they help when using stiffer recoil springs.

Another thought would be extractor tension and tolerance. If your misfeeds are ending up nose-up (which is what it sounds like), perhaps there's something that's keeping the rounds from sliding under the extractor claw smoothly. I would check the extractor for burrs, and possibly do some polishing/clearancing if the rounds do not slide under it easily (since the Glocks feed well now, use them as a benchmark for how they should feel when sliding under the extractor). Another option would be reducing its spring tension.

I would try the factory recoil springs first, then mag springs, then extractor.

If all else fails, a looser barrel might work. This could be achieved through returning to the factory barrel, or through chamber polishing.

EDIT: Also check the breech face for imperfections that might hinder a round from smoothly sliding under the extractor.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 07-26-2011 at 01:37..
21Carrier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 05:39   #13
whenmonkeysfly
CLM Number 249
Charter Lifetime Member
 
whenmonkeysfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 360


Quote:
Originally Posted by Meathead9 View Post
Maybe try a little more crimp? I have crimped down as low as .416 with some of my loads, but more consistently to .418-.419. I have no experience with 1911's, so my advice is limited. Good luck man.

What spring weight are you using with the DW?

Have you shot factory rounds through it?


-MEAT
I'm using a 24lb recoil spring. Shot some (ten to fifteen) DT factory through it with one hiccup, a nose dive into the chamber hood, like my handoads. I think another trip to the range with a stock 20lb (21Carrier suggestion) recoil spring for another test. I'll take my camera a try and get some pictures of any feed issues....
__________________
Navy Corpsman, 1971-1975; NRA Patron Life Member; The 10mm "...more energy at 100 yards than a .45 ACP at the muzzle." - Massad Ayoob quoting Col. Jeff Cooper
whenmonkeysfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 11:42   #14
whenmonkeysfly
CLM Number 249
Charter Lifetime Member
 
whenmonkeysfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 360


Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
I think I read where McNett actually loaded some bullets to 1.242", I think those were the 200 and 220 WFNGC's, I don't have any of his 10mm stuff to measure, the only DT stuff I have is the 9x25Dillon.
Shadow,

DT's, 200 Grain WFNGC's measure at 1.249 consistently.
__________________
Navy Corpsman, 1971-1975; NRA Patron Life Member; The 10mm "...more energy at 100 yards than a .45 ACP at the muzzle." - Massad Ayoob quoting Col. Jeff Cooper
whenmonkeysfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 19:49   #15
whenmonkeysfly
CLM Number 249
Charter Lifetime Member
 
whenmonkeysfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 360


Dan Wesson Razorback Limited 10mm update on feeding issue: I switched to a 20lb. recoil spring and did extensive polishing of the feed ramp, chamber, chamber hood. Ran 350 rounds through her with two FTF's, which was quickly fixed by a tap/ and partial rack. I think the combination of shortening the 10mm cartridge to 1.245, barrel polishing and the 20lb. recoil spring fixed the issue. The G20 with 6" KKM Precision Barrel didn't miss a beat.
__________________
Navy Corpsman, 1971-1975; NRA Patron Life Member; The 10mm "...more energy at 100 yards than a .45 ACP at the muzzle." - Massad Ayoob quoting Col. Jeff Cooper
whenmonkeysfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 20:10   #16
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,336
Jay, Sure sounds like you have found some progress, good job! Congrats!
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member
_The_Shadow is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 03:07   #17
21Carrier
Until I Gota 29
 
21Carrier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hoover, AL
Posts: 3,037
That's awesome, man. I'm glad you figured it out. Two out of 350 is damn good, and it sounds like that's much better than before.
21Carrier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 08:51   #18
whenmonkeysfly
CLM Number 249
Charter Lifetime Member
 
whenmonkeysfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 360


Thanks guys, I appreciate all your suggestions/input! I couldn't have figured it out without your help!

The two FTF's were after 300 rounds and the gun was dirty and running drier than I like for a 1911 with a match barrel. (Ran one mag through the gun as fast as I could pull the trigger and it didn't miss a beat. (Of course I wouldn't have won any prizes for bullseye shooting either!)

After I got home, cleaned the gun, pulled the extractor and did some very minor sanding, cleaning and polishing on it as well after noticing a few minor burrs (Thanks, 21Carrier).

Here's a few good links for 1911 extractor tuning:

http://www.m1911.org/technic2.htm

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/r...ty_secrets.htm

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=1...tor_Adjustment

10mm Rules!
__________________
Navy Corpsman, 1971-1975; NRA Patron Life Member; The 10mm "...more energy at 100 yards than a .45 ACP at the muzzle." - Massad Ayoob quoting Col. Jeff Cooper

Last edited by whenmonkeysfly; 07-27-2011 at 08:51..
whenmonkeysfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2011, 09:43   #19
whenmonkeysfly
CLM Number 249
Charter Lifetime Member
 
whenmonkeysfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 360


I went back to the range yesterday with my Dan Wesson Razorback Limited 10mm some of the following loads:

8.3 Grains of Hodgdon Longshot
CCI-300 LP Primers
Starline Brass
155 Grain Montana Gold JHP
OAL: 1.245
Taper Crimp .422

Loads were running 1150-1200fps (Chrono'ed). Experienced some failure to feed issues on first round into the tube - nose dive into the hood of the chamber.

I have read in several places that 1911 style pistols prefer a longer OAL.

So I'm going back to the press to crank out some 1.255's and see what happens with this FTF issue.

I think I will experiment with the taper crimp as Meathead suggested earlier in this thread.

I'll also take my G20 with it's KKM Precision 6" Barrel and see how it feeds and shoots as well. I'm looking for a median 1200fps with a 155 grain bullet (186 PF). My above loads shot softly and accurately. A real pleasure to shoot. (The 180's and heavier bullets tend to make me flinch more.)

Any one have any ideas/comments/suggestions on OAL and Failure to Feed issues?

Appreciate the feedback! 10mm Rules!
__________________
Navy Corpsman, 1971-1975; NRA Patron Life Member; The 10mm "...more energy at 100 yards than a .45 ACP at the muzzle." - Massad Ayoob quoting Col. Jeff Cooper
whenmonkeysfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2011, 07:42   #20
ModGlock17
Senior Member
 
ModGlock17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lalaland USA
Posts: 2,627
Feeding issue I experienced was the slide locked back with the last round still in the mag area, instead of an empty mag.

Replaced with a Wolf +10% mag spring, on my G20. It should push the rounds up a little harder.
ModGlock17 is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply


Tags
10mm, oal, oal and feeding issue, reloading
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:53.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 850
236 Members
614 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31