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Old 08-13-2011, 07:48   #21
Dexters
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I think a lot of people are mistaking a rioting mob with SHTF roving bands of looters. They are two different groups.

Rioting mobs are loose associations of gangs/friends that see an opportunity to steal and cause mayhem under the cover of lawlessness. They exhaust their energy quickly like a thunderstorm. They do not have an structure or management or logistics and do not work together as one.

A SHTF roving band of looters is more focused, has a structure, works together and stay together longer than a riot.

Those suggesting shooting better be able to show that their actions were justified after the troubles are over - especially in the USA. There is no such a thing as a secrete. A friend and you get into an argument and they tell the police you killed someone. Or a friend gets arrested and they give you up to get out of trouble. Or some of the gang that escape tell the police what happened after it was all over (again maybe as a bargaining chip with the police).
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:04   #22
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This is my number one disatster that I'm preparing for. I live near Detroit. In my estimation, the most likely scenario is that riots start in Detroit for whatever reason (economic, racial, sports, combo platter, etc.) If the riots last long enough (3 days to a week,) the city will run out of food. After that the refugees/rioters will spread out to the nearby suburbs. It may die down or it may get worse.

If it looks untenable in my location, my family will go to my parents house witch is more protected because of geography, infrastructure, and planning.

My preps include:
-the appropriate amount of food and water.
-camp stove and heater with enough fuel to last for an appropriate amount of time
-firearms and enough ammo
-BOBs and bug out gear if it is too bad to stay
Still to get:
-MDF for the windows
-generator and fuel
-more emergency medical items

Of course, my preps cover more than just this one scenario but since Michigan doesn't really have much in the way of natural disasters, this is my Number One. Also, there is the precipitating factor for the riots to take into account. If it is a nationwide economic disaster, that is something to be prepared for as well.
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:08   #23
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This is my number one disatster that I'm preparing for.
Get some pepper and bear spray.
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:15   #24
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This is my number one disatster that I'm preparing for. I live near Detroit. In my estimation, the most likely scenario is that riots start in Detroit for whatever reason (economic, racial, sports, combo platter, etc.) If the riots last long enough (3 days to a week,) the city will run out of food. After that the refugees/rioters will spread out to the nearby suburbs. It may die down or it may get worse.

If it looks untenable in my location, my family will go to my parents house witch is more protected because of geography, infrastructure, and planning.

My preps include:
-the appropriate amount of food and water.
-camp stove and heater with enough fuel to last for an appropriate amount of time
-firearms and enough ammo
-BOBs and bug out gear if it is too bad to stay
Still to get:
-MDF for the windows
-generator and fuel
-more emergency medical items

Of course, my preps cover more than just this one scenario but since Michigan doesn't really have much in the way of natural disasters, this is my Number One. Also, there is the precipitating factor for the riots to take into account. If it is a nationwide economic disaster, that is something to be prepared for as well.
I don't envy you living near Detroit.
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:24   #25
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So I live less than a few miles from one of the top ten most dangerous and "urban" areas in the country, but right on the edge between the city and country. My neighborhood borders a cotton field... If London-style riots occur... my plan is to send the wife and kids the opposite way to stay with her parents, who live about an hour away in "real" country and are well armed and stocked with supplies. My neighbor and I plan on staying with our longarms and defending our homes for as long as possible. If we get completely outnumbered, we will climb into his 4x4 and head out across the cotton field where he will drop me off with the rest of the family and continue on his way to his own safe house...

Do you live in a vulnerable area? Do you have a plan? Do you have weapons? What will you do?
Uhhhh . Dude, your plan is not a good one. Two guys with long arms can stack up a lot of bodies, but I doubt that the bad guys are going to use a human wave assault without weapons on your home. More likely, they will shoot back (through the walls) , or just burn the place down around you. Traveling in a vehicle is not a good idea when things have already gotten out of control. Bullets go through cars, and streets may be blocked by looters to keep the police away.

What is your most precious thing in the world. For most of us, its our family, you should be with them.



There is a real easy solution to the OP's problem. Use one of these BEFORE the riots start.













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Move now.

Spend a little extra on your insurance to get replacement cost coverage. Then you can leave any place and not worry about it too much.

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Old 08-13-2011, 08:51   #26
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A couple of charged million + candlepower spotlights, and some 1000 feet flares. Cockroaches do not like the light, and light will help you to shoot better.
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Old 08-13-2011, 09:29   #27
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Have to disagree with the "move" strategy, because it recommends major disruption and likely downgrade of lifestyle (as you leave your job, family, house or whatever your reasons you live where you do) for a minute probability of potential harm by a mob.

Take the Rodney King riots of LA. 53 people died, and that includes rioters themselves (for a better measure we should just take victims, not perps plus victims, but we'll take the conservative measure here and include the dirtbags too). There are almost 4 million people who live in LA. So chances of dying during one of the most violent outbursts in LA history were 1:76,000. If the odds were 1:1000 I'd think about moving, but one in seventy six thousand? I'm more likely to win the lottery than die in mob violence.

Good preparation is all about playing the odds, and odds don't favor death by mob action...that's a very rare scenario that some of us like to fantasize about. All types of assaults combined, account for a whopping 0.7% of all deaths in the USA.

We should be much much more concerned about things like seat-belting into our cars, stopping smoking, getting exercise to prevent heart disease, controlling weight. Your chances are an order of magnitude higher for dying of one of these controllable events, than mob violence.
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Old 08-13-2011, 09:52   #28
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Have to disagree with the "move" strategy, because it recommends major disruption and likely downgrade of lifestyle (as you leave your job, family, house or whatever your reasons you live where you do) for a minute probability of potential harm by a mob.

Take the Rodney King riots of LA. 53 people died, and that includes rioters themselves (for a better measure we should just take victims, not perps plus victims, but we'll take the conservative measure here and include the dirtbags too). There are almost 4 million people who live in LA. So chances of dying during one of the most violent outbursts in LA history were 1:76,000. If the odds were 1:1000 I'd think about moving, but one in seventy six thousand? I'm more likely to win the lottery than die in mob violence.

Good preparation is all about playing the odds, and odds don't favor death by mob action...that's a very rare scenario that some of us like to fantasize about. All types of assaults combined, account for a whopping 0.7% of all deaths in the USA.

We should be much much more concerned about things like seat-belting into our cars, stopping smoking, getting exercise to prevent heart disease, controlling weight. Your chances are an order of magnitude higher for dying of one of these controllable events, than mob violence.


Large cities are hazardous in many ways. Not just riots. Too many people in one area allows for too many problems. Cities are bad places to be in just about any situation that negatively effects people. One trip to Louisiana after Katrina with the 1st Cav showed me that. The city folks were going ape $HI^ and the guys just a few miles out of town were doing fine.
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Old 08-13-2011, 09:59   #29
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Large cities are hazardous in many ways. Not just riots. Too many people in one area allows for too many problems. Cities are bad places to be in just about any situation that negatively effects people. One trip to Louisiana after Katrina with the 1st Cav showed me that. The city folks were going ape $HI^ and the guys just a few miles out of town were doing fine.

The OP situation and your observations show that both large cities and rural areas are both hazardous in many ways.

We hashed this out already.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1166268
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Old 08-13-2011, 10:09   #30
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How may people is "too many people"? Have you seen Hong Kong recently? They're stacked in, and I think they'd disagree their city is hazardous. In fact it's pretty darned safe. The wilds may seem appealing...until you need a life-saving surgical procedure, or a new pair of prescription glasses. Cities are loaded with resources. The reason more people die in cities is because there's more people TO die. Plus, the sick and frail tend to congregate in cities near hospitals. They're not dying because crowding causes death.

Bucolic rural landscapes are hazardous too, for different reasons. Some people appreciate earning money and living near hospitals and grocery stores that function 99.9999% of the time. It may be personally disappointing, but you just don't see "city folk" dying off like flies from urbanity, much as that seems to be a popular fantasy.

Play the odds and prepare likewise. You can prep for urban disasters, just as you can prep for rural ones. It's not logical to upend your whole life for the remote probability you will die in a mob attack.
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Old 08-13-2011, 10:31   #31
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Uhhhh . Dude, your plan is not a good one. Two guys with long arms can stack up a lot of bodies, but I doubt that the bad guys are going to use a human wave assault without weapons on your home. More likely, they will shoot back (through the walls) , or just burn the place down around you. Traveling in a vehicle is not a good idea when things have already gotten out of control. Bullets go through cars, and streets may be blocked by looters to keep the police away.

What is your most precious thing in the world. For most of us, its our family, you should be with them.



There is a real easy solution to the OP's problem. Use one of these BEFORE the riots start.













Survival/Preparedness Forum

Move now.

Spend a little extra on your insurance to get replacement cost coverage. Then you can leave any place and not worry about it too much.
For some that is easier said then done. Maybe he likes where he lives, maybe he can't afford to just pick up and move, who knows. Make a plan and hone it. A plan is better than no plan.
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Old 08-13-2011, 10:31   #32
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How may people is "too many people"? Have you seen Hong Kong recently? They're stacked in, and I think they'd disagree their city is hazardous. In fact it's pretty darned safe. The wilds may seem appealing...until you need a life-saving surgical procedure, or a new pair of prescription glasses. Cities are loaded with resources. The reason more people die in cities is because there's more people TO die. Plus, the sick and frail tend to congregate in cities near hospitals. They're not dying because crowding causes death.

Bucolic rural landscapes are hazardous too, for different reasons. Some people appreciate earning money and living near hospitals and grocery stores that function 99.9999% of the time. It may be personally disappointing, but you just don't see "city folk" dying off like flies from urbanity, much as that seems to be a popular fantasy.

Play the odds and prepare likewise. You can prep for urban disasters, just as you can prep for rural ones. It's not logical to upend your whole life for the remote probability you will die in a mob attack.
To each their own. There are good and bad things about any location. Live in suburbia, I can drive to the city, or the country, and don't have to drive in city traffic, or deal with panhandlers. Just got back from a week in Atlanta, nice restaurants, and lots of beggars. One even walked with me for a while on my way to a pharmacy to get some medication that I had forgotten, and offered to show me a shortcut. I was born on a Tuesday, but not last Tuesday.

Keep your cities. I guess it's a matter of personal preference.
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Old 08-13-2011, 10:36   #33
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For some that is easier said then done. Maybe he likes where he lives, maybe he can't afford to just pick up and move, who knows. Make a plan and hone it. A plan is better than no plan.
Guarding an apartment with two guys hoping to fight off looters is not the best idea in the world. You could free yourself up as a resource to protect your family with a little good quality renters insurance.

Most people live where they do by chance. I've traveled a bit, and live right where I do for many reasons. The economy is fine here, other than drought, and the occasional tornado, not too many problems with natural disasters. Laws are friendly to my profession and my hobbies. Laws tend to support property owners, and remove protection for criminals. In Texas, you can chase someone down and kill them to get your property back. I'd never do that, unless it was one of my dogs or something like that, but you get the point.
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Old 08-13-2011, 10:42   #34
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I agree with you on the 'to each his own.' It's more of a personal preference. Some people will put up with freeways & panhandlers in exchange for airports, ambulances, universities, pharmacies, firemen, hospitals, and white-collar jobs. Others won't.

I'm just trying to make the point that city life doesn't risk certain death by mob action...that would actually be exceedingly rare. But city life does require different types of preps (and perhaps more difficult to do? since we are so reliant on the matrix) than the country does.
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:38   #35
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But are you prepared to deplete your bank accounts defending yourself in the inevitable trial, and to go to jail for it? Regardless of how justified? Shooting somebody in our society isn't the end of anything, it's just the beginning of a long, unpleasant process. Even the dictates of narrow self-interest and survival mean shooting is the last resort, not the first.
I don't say "shoot them" lightly or cavalierly; it's as serious a proposition as there is. I also agree that it is (or at least should be) a last resort, not a first option. But mobs attacking me or mine are inherently a 'deadly force', and if that threshold is breeched, not sure what lesser response would better protect my family or myself. If we're talking about defending our home from a mob that's outside, it might be that a CS canister tossed out into the crowd would be just as good; but if we're talking about being attacked by a mob while out & about, not as many options or chances to be creative about it.

As far as after-incident complications, you're also right - no way to avoid them. But there are things that can be done to tilt them more toward your favor. Be a "known" good guy by as many local folks as possible - be active in the community, be known (as a good guy, mind you.. ) by as many authorities as possible. In my area, the county prosecutor is a man who I've known for years and who used to be my son's sunday school teacher. The sheriff knows, respects & appreciates me because I've volunteered a lot of hours & money to his dept (as well as the sheriff before him) since the 1990's. Having done that over the years, means I'm on a first-name basis with the county deputies and the majority of the nearby local cops as well, and have gone thru dangerous doors with quite a few of them; and that history would certainly not hurt if they were to take a report of an incident in which I was involved. So local law enforcement is largely "on my side" for lack of a better term. I also for a number of years now have been singing in gospel groups in the area in different churches; and in such a low-density population, that means a lot of people recognize me in that context. Not that I have any kind of celebrity, I'm just noticeable - a big bearded goober that's been up in front of a lot of them and who just stands out by virtue of being a big bearded goober; can't help it.

My point isn't how great my situation is, or how well the local community thinks of me. My point is that it's a completely valid prep consideration to improve a person's 'preparedness' level & options in our community just as we do in our homes; and I recommend doing so to the extent possible. If a person lives in a huge metro area, he's certainly more limited in how "known" he is in the area, but like anything, we should do what we can to improve our situations and give us as many options as possible.

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Old 08-13-2011, 11:58   #36
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But there are things that can be done to tilt them more toward your favor. Be a "known" good guy by as many local folks as possible - be active in the community, be known (as a good guy, mind you.. ) by as many authorities as possible.
You're totally correct, of course. Your standing in the community will be an important asset...UNLIKE virtually every apocalyptic movie, which depicts the complete inversion of the previous social order. That's just fumes and fantasy. The credible and well-regarded (perhaps bearded choir boys) in the community BEFORE the fan starts up, will have a big advantage AFTER the fan starts blowing. 95% of humans self-organize into hierarchies. Better to be at the top of yours, than at the bottom!

I'm a transplant from Arizona, so living in L.A. is a bit of a culture shock. One thing that amazes me is how many of my neighbors don't know each other. Like you, I've made an effort to get to know people and be seen as a pro-community guy (CERT training, local Ham network, joined Neighborhood Watch, that sort of stuff). I think it's a very important prep, as you say...dare I say just as important as guns and ammo.
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:59   #37
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Have to disagree with the "move" strategy, because it recommends major disruption and likely downgrade of lifestyle (as you leave your job, family, house or whatever your reasons you live where you do) for a minute probability of potential harm by a mob.

Take the Rodney King riots of LA. 53 people died, and that includes rioters themselves (for a better measure we should just take victims, not perps plus victims, but we'll take the conservative measure here and include the dirtbags too). There are almost 4 million people who live in LA. So chances of dying during one of the most violent outbursts in LA history were 1:76,000. If the odds were 1:1000 I'd think about moving, but one in seventy six thousand? I'm more likely to win the lottery than die in mob violence.

Good preparation is all about playing the odds, and odds don't favor death by mob action...that's a very rare scenario that some of us like to fantasize about. All types of assaults combined, account for a whopping 0.7% of all deaths in the USA.

We should be much much more concerned about things like seat-belting into our cars, stopping smoking, getting exercise to prevent heart disease, controlling weight. Your chances are an order of magnitude higher for dying of one of these controllable events, than mob violence.
How many injured?

I always wear a seatbelt, I never smoked, I exercise regularly and am actually trying to gain weight. Why would I worry about these things?
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Old 08-13-2011, 12:29   #38
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...UNLIKE virtually every apocalyptic movie, which depicts the complete inversion of the previous social order. That's just fumes and fantasy.

...I've made an effort to get to know people and be seen as a pro-community guy (CERT training, local Ham network, joined Neighborhood Watch, that sort of stuff). I think it's a very important prep, as you say...dare I say just as important as guns and ammo.
One thing I harp on regarding any shtf situation is simply this - whether we're talking about katrina, the king riots, a local tornado or ice storm, or even world war 2, they all have at least one thing in common: they all ended at some point. Mad Max, or A Boy and His Dog, ain't happening; and when the shtf does end (as they ALWAYS do), there will be both the authorities and the man in the mirror that have to be answered to for our actions.

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...Bucolic rural landscapes are hazardous too, for different reasons. Some people appreciate earning money and living near hospitals and grocery stores that function 99.9999% of the time...
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...Some people will put up with freeways & panhandlers in exchange for airports, ambulances, universities, pharmacies, firemen, hospitals, and white-collar jobs...
Not to be contentious, but seems like there’s either a serious bias against non-metropolitan areas, or at least a gross misunderstanding of more rural life. We have hospitals & grocery stores; even have schools, paved roads and fire departments. And if we’re going to be fair about it, city people have to “put up with” a whole lot more than panhandlers. Cities not only have more crime, they have more crime per capita and a much higher percent of that crime is violent crime. They also have to put up with higher taxes, lower personal freedoms (less ccw allowance, etc), less privacy, lower performance on average of the school systems, and all manner of differences. And while there’s a whole lot more towns of 20 thousand than there are cities of a million, when was the last time we heard of a flash-mob in one of those 20K population towns.. None that I’m aware of.

Not hating on cities, and rural areas absolutely have their disadvantages too; there’s been times I’ve just craved a good marinated ribeye at 4am, and don’t like driving over an hour to get to little rock airport. But if we’re going to be honest about it, the differences between big city & small town is nowhere near being just a matter of inconveniences like panhandlers & traffic.


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…We should be much much more concerned about things like seat-belting into our cars, stopping smoking, getting exercise to prevent heart disease, controlling weight. Your chances are an order of magnitude higher for dying of one of these controllable events, than mob violence.
On that we agree completely; it’s the mundane-but-constant daily things (regardless of whether rural or urban) that deserve priority of our attentions.
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Old 08-13-2011, 13:34   #39
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I always wear a seatbelt, I never smoked, I exercise regularly and am actually trying to gain weight. Why would I worry about these things?
Well, because you're an order of magnitude more likely to be taken by heart attack, cancer, auto accident, or stroke, than you are by mob violence. I don't advocate worrying about these issues. Sounds like you're actively engaged in combatting your most likely causes of death. So the warning is not for you. It's for the guy who ignores the most likely causes of death, has a horrible diet, doesn't exercise, meanwhile thinking his Glock is THE answer to survival. It's not.

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...seems like there’s either a serious bias against non-metropolitan areas, or at least a gross misunderstanding of more rural life.
If that's aimed at me, I'll tell you right out that I prefer rural life to urban. I've lived both. Obviously rural dwellers can get to a hospital, but in 5 mintues with an ambulance treating you along the way? I'm not promoting urban life, it has many drawbacks, and you listed some of the ones I hate the most (no privacy, higher taxes) but I am defending it against irrational charges that it's so deadly dangerous to live in the big city, that uprooting your job and your life, and moving to the boonies, is the only smart move.

Look, I don't mean to ride this, and I think I've posted enough in this thread. But I'm developing some sand in my socks with posters who don't consider likely probabilities, and who keep concentrating on extremely rare events to which the solution is moving to the hills and/or shooting somebody. Those types of problems are pretty rare, and I'd like to see a more rational, probability-based approach to preparedness that's less focused on using a single tool to solve all problems. OK, I'll stop now.
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Old 08-13-2011, 15:35   #40
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But I'm developing some sand in my socks with posters who don't consider likely probabilities, and who keep concentrating on extremely rare events to which the solution is moving to the hills and/or shooting somebody. Those types of problems are pretty rare, and I'd like to see a more rational, probability-based approach to preparedness that's less focused on using a single tool to solve all problems. OK, I'll stop now.
Very true. There is hope - there was a post about a 50ish guy who tried his Get Home Bag out and walked home. He learned a lot about his physical limitations.

One of the most dangerous things we can do is get into a car and drive. The chances of death or serious injury are much greater than the situations people present here.
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Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31