GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-24-2011, 12:37   #1
poodleshooter1
Senior Member
 
poodleshooter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,110
What if they approach while you are holding them at gunpoint?

Let's say you had legal justification to shoot and drew, perhaps because they were approaching with a knife or bat in hand. When you drew your gun they dropped their weapon and stopped advancing. Now you're not able to shoot and are holding them at gunpoint (who would hoster at this point lol).

Let's say the start talking to you and are approaching slowly step by step. If you can, try to create distance and put an object between you and them, sure. But whether you can or can't create distance and place an object between you, do you have legal justification to shoot if they disobey commands to stop advancing, etc. or do you actually have to get to the point where they are two feet from you and able to snatch your gun, and actually trying to snatch your gun?

What are the elements of such a situation?
poodleshooter1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 12:39   #2
janice6
Platinum Membership
NRA
 
janice6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: minnesota
Posts: 17,234


Say, Stop or I'll shoot. Then shoot.



The threat hasn't stopped.
__________________
janice6

"Peace is that brief, glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". Anonymous

Earp: Not everyone who knows you hates you.
DOC: I know it ain't always easy bein' my friend....but I'll BE THERE when you need me.
janice6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 12:46   #3
MLittle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 553
My recommendation to you would be to refer to the Laws and Statutes in your state to see what threats by another party would allow a person holding a legit concealed carry permit to use deadly force if you are speaking about a threat outside your home or vehicle.

For me, I would need to feel that I, or my family was in immediate and unavoidable danger and or threat of bodily injury or death before I would discharge my weapon.
MLittle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 12:50   #4
Adjuster
Senior Member
 
Adjuster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ft. Lauderdale FL
Posts: 9,885
Shoot
Adjuster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 12:52   #5
John Rambo
Raven
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Tampa, Fl.
Posts: 8,013
Huh? They dropped the knife after I shot them.
John Rambo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 12:55   #6
poodleshooter1
Senior Member
 
poodleshooter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by MLittle View Post
My recommendation to you would be to refer to the Laws and Statutes in your state to see what threats by another party would allow a person holding a legit concealed carry permit to use deadly force if you are speaking about a threat outside your home or vehicle.

For me, I would need to feel that I, or my family was in immediate and unavoidable danger and or threat of bodily injury or death before I would discharge my weapon.
Ayoob states that if attacked by multiple unarmed people, and you shoot two of them leaving one of them, you have the right to use lethal force because that person has proved an intent and capability to cause grave bodily injury or death. I'm paraphrasing but that's the jist of it.

In my state (WA), you are allowed to use deadly force to stop any felony committed upon your person. Robbery, kidnapping, or felony assault, etc.

So it stands to reason that if someone (one person)was armed with a knife and trying to assault me, that would be a felony, they have shown an intent to commit grave bodily inury or death. They are present and capable. If they drop it and eventually start advancing, it stands to reason they still intend to commit a felony upon me and are not walking up to shake my hand.

Last edited by poodleshooter1; 08-24-2011 at 12:56..
poodleshooter1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 13:00   #7
txinvestigator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: DFW
Posts: 1,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by janice6 View Post
Say, Stop or I'll shoot. Then shoot.



The threat hasn't stopped.
And perhaps go to prison, depending on the circumstances.
__________________
CHL Instructor
txinvestigator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 13:01   #8
freedom790
Senior Member
 
freedom790's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cheyenne, WY
Posts: 562
Around these parts the language is when "a person reasonably believes that he is in imminent danger of serious bodily harm or death." Once you feel that he has the time, proximity and capability and you fear seriously bodily harm or death, around here at least, you are within your legal right to shoot. But like has been said, I would check for precedence within your area.
__________________
High morale, low judgement.
freedom790 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 13:02   #9
txinvestigator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: DFW
Posts: 1,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by poodleshooter1 View Post
Ayoob states that if attacked by multiple unarmed people, and you shoot two of them leaving one of them, you have the right to use lethal force because that person has proved an intent and capability to cause grave bodily injury or death. I'm paraphrasing but that's the jist of it.

In my state (WA), you are allowed to use deadly force to stop any felony committed upon your person. Robbery, kidnapping, or felony assault, etc.

So it stands to reason that if someone (one person)was armed with a knife and trying to assault me, that would be a felony, they have shown an intent to commit grave bodily inury or death. They are present and capable. If they drop it and eventually start advancing, it stands to reason they still intend to commit a felony upon me and are not walking up to shake my hand.
You are seriously simplifying Ayoobs statements, and I believe slighty mi-stating them.

Depending on the laws of your state, your last paragraph might or might not give justification.
__________________
CHL Instructor
txinvestigator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 13:09   #10
janice6
Platinum Membership
NRA
 
janice6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: minnesota
Posts: 17,234


Quote:
Originally Posted by txinvestigator View Post
And perhaps go to prison, depending on the circumstances.
Some times it works that way.
__________________
janice6

"Peace is that brief, glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". Anonymous

Earp: Not everyone who knows you hates you.
DOC: I know it ain't always easy bein' my friend....but I'll BE THERE when you need me.
janice6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 13:12   #11
GlockinNJ
Senior Member
 
GlockinNJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: PRONJ
Posts: 2,678
Quote:
Originally Posted by janice6 View Post
Some times it works that way.
Better to be judged by 12....
GlockinNJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 13:24   #12
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,768
Sounds like you've got a decision to make.

Several, actually, and the first one is whether or not you're going to train and study or just treat the pistol as magic.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 13:33   #13
GlocksterPaulie
Perfectionist
 
GlocksterPaulie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Damned if I know
Posts: 4,513
Everyone who carries a firearm for SD should already have the answer to this question. If this happens and you don't have a game plan you are going to be in a world of pain and possibly death.

Their is a lot more to this than carrying a firearm. Do your homework now so if this situation happens on your worst day you will be prepared.

Paulie
GlocksterPaulie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 13:34   #14
Scamp
Boomer Sooners!
 
Scamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2,236
Let 'em get close and kick 'em in the nads....
Scamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 13:40   #15
rhikdavis
U.S. Veteran
 
rhikdavis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Late Great Planet Earth
Posts: 13,192
Blog Entries: 1
Send a message via Yahoo to rhikdavis Send a message via Skype™ to rhikdavis
Knee-capp'em!
__________________
Charter OAF Member
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
rhikdavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 14:35   #16
cloudbuster
Senior Member
 
cloudbuster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,257
This tactical expert recommends spitting on them, slapping and kicking at them, and possibly , if they stab you, bleeding on them while shouting "I have STDs!" This should buy you plenty of time to discern their intent. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pU2IOTEZlU
__________________
"A constitutional guarantee subject to future judges’ assessments of its usefulness is no constitutional guarantee at all." -- Justice Antonin Scalia, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ET AL. v. HELLER, June 26, 2008
cloudbuster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 14:38   #17
poodleshooter1
Senior Member
 
poodleshooter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by txinvestigator View Post
You are seriously simplifying Ayoobs statements, and I believe slighty mi-stating them.

Depending on the laws of your state, your last paragraph might or might not give justification.
No, I'm not. He clearly stated in his book such a circumstance where multiple unarmed people attack, you shoot two of them, one is left standing. What do you do? His answer was pretty clear. Don't make me get the book out and type out what it says....
poodleshooter1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 14:39   #18
poodleshooter1
Senior Member
 
poodleshooter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Sounds like you've got a decision to make.

Several, actually, and the first one is whether or not you're going to train and study or just treat the pistol as magic.
poodleshooter1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 15:01   #19
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by poodleshooter1 View Post
Ayoob states that if attacked by multiple unarmed people, and you shoot two of them leaving one of them, you have the right to use lethal force because that person has proved an intent and capability to cause grave bodily injury or death. I'm paraphrasing but that's the jist of it.

In my state (WA), you are allowed to use deadly force to stop any felony committed upon your person. Robbery, kidnapping, or felony assault, etc.

So it stands to reason that if someone (one person)was armed with a knife and trying to assault me, that would be a felony, they have shown an intent to commit grave bodily inury or death. They are present and capable. If they drop it and eventually start advancing, it stands to reason they still intend to commit a felony upon me and are not walking up to shake my hand.
I sat through LFI-I, dutifully transcribed my notes, and that's not what he said to us. Nor would he have been correct if he said what you wrote. *IF* the disparity of force that led you to shoot 2 of 3 unarmed attackers was based just on their numbers, then you've removed the "ability" leg of the AOJ stool, pretty much by definiton, when you removed the surplus numbers. I'll buy that the survivor has the opportunity to hurt you, even then intent. Please show (this generally being an affirmative defense) that the last guy could cause you serious injury or death. Show that as things existed when you pulled the trigger on the last guy that you were acting in immediate defense of life.

Ditto the knife example in the last paragraph. Please show that an unarmed guy walking towards you has the capacity---not the intent or the opportunity---to force you to act in immediate defense of life. The simple "intent to commit a felony" generally isn't enough. And you should also be able to distinguish, in acts and in discussion, the difference between when you're allowed to shoot and when you need to shoot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poodleshooter1 View Post
Really?
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 16:05   #20
CookeMonster
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Ditto the knife example in the last paragraph. Please show that an unarmed guy walking toward you has the capacity---not the intent or the opportunity---to force you to act in immediate defense of life. The simple "intent to commit a felony" generally isn't enough. And you should also be able to distinguish, in acts and in discussion, the difference between when you're allowed to shoot and when you need to shoot.
I am not a lawyer, nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express recently, but I would have to argue that the man pulled the knife on me to commit a violent felony. If he is still advancing on me now that I have introduced a stronger weapon, I have to assume he intends to follow through with his 1st threat by producing a hidden weapon, or taking control of mine. At this point, you have drawn and chambered, safety off if applicable and the range has shrunk (from the 20 feet or whatever it may be here or there) in your defensible buffer zone to less than 10 feet. Yes, try to disengage or keep obstacles between you and him, but he gets inside of 10 feet and it would go bang. I have not discussed this scenario with a lawyer, as I don't have one at my beckon call, nor do I intend to pay one to discuss every possible scenario. I only have to fear for my safety right now, and he's already shown to be a motivated, violent offender by pulling the knife in the first place and IMO is proving he is currently a danger by continuing to advance on a man wielding a gun.

Last edited by CookeMonster; 08-24-2011 at 16:06..
CookeMonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 16:09   #21
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 42,549
Blog Entries: 64
Folks, if you don't have a positive contribution to make, how about just not posting.

Thanks
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 16:20   #22
barstoolguru
texas proud
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: dallas, tx
Posts: 2,434
Send a message via ICQ to barstoolguru Send a message via Yahoo to barstoolguru
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhikdavis View Post
Knee-capp'em!

I asked about shooting below the waist and it would still be intent to kill so you might as well shoot them in the chest and not take the chance of missing

Even if the weapon is dropped the perp is still moving towards you they are still a threat because you can't tell if they have another weapon
barstoolguru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 16:46   #23
rohanreginald
Novice
 
rohanreginald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,050
Simple answer...

If I am in fear of my life I draw in preparation to shoot. If the bad guy drops his weapon then I don't shoot immediately. If the threat persists however, I am going to shoot.

While that is a simple answer there are many variables to throw in there and to contemplate. Can I put a barrier between me and bad guy. If so I do that. If the bad guy advances and I have time to give commands, I do that. If he obeys my commands then I don't shoot.

What if I pull my gun, he drops his knife, runs for cover so he can draw a pistol and tries to shoot me first. There are so many things to think of that it is impossible to answer every variable over the internet. The bottom line is if the threat still exists to my life, I am going to end that threat one way or another. Shooting someone is always the last resort!
__________________
"Anticipate stupidity and stop it"
rohanreginald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 17:22   #24
Sr. Bang Bang
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Lakewood, OH
Posts: 266
When I took my CCW class in the state of Ohio, there was a lawyer who was good friends with the gun range that I go to. He came in to talk about the "legal" side of carrying concealed, and using lethal force to protect your life. The two points that I keep popping in my head as I read this response:

1. If you are prepared to to pull your gun, you pull the trigger. You do not pull the gun as a warning,or a threat because you have to explain why you used lethal force, when apparently a threat was all that was needed.

2. (which follows the same thought process of #1,) Never fire warning shots, or shoot below the belt (purposely not killing, but wounding) because, again, you are using lethal force in a way that wasn't lethal and you have to prove that lethal force was needed to legally draw your weapon, and then explain why you didn't use it lethally.
__________________
"I wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then"

-Bob Seger
Sr. Bang Bang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2011, 17:31   #25
lovetofly08
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Arkansas/Texas
Posts: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by rohanreginald View Post
Simple answer...

If I am in fear of my life I draw in preparation to shoot. If the bad guy drops his weapon then I don't shoot immediately. If the threat persists however, I am going to shoot.

While that is a simple answer there are many variables to throw in there and to contemplate. Can I put a barrier between me and bad guy. If so I do that. If the bad guy advances and I have time to give commands, I do that. If he obeys my commands then I don't shoot.

What if I pull my gun, he drops his knife, runs for cover so he can draw a pistol and tries to shoot me first. There are so many things to think of that it is impossible to answer every variable over the internet. The bottom line is if the threat still exists to my life, I am going to end that threat one way or another. Shooting someone is always the last resort!
lovetofly08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 13:38.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,382
392 Members
990 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42