Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-25-2011, 12:18   #61
Donn57
Just me
 
Donn57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sunny Florida
Posts: 1,066


Quote:
Originally Posted by badge315 View Post
And yet there is a legal presumption that any uninvited person in your home is there to kill you, whether or not there's any indication that that is actually the case. Any assumption that an unarmed individual aggressively advancing toward an armed person is not intent on violent assault defies logic.

Personally, I'm confident in my ability to articulate why I felt my life was in danger if I ever have to utilize deadly force.
Location makes all the difference in the world. My assumption with this scenario is that it was not within your home, but I may have assumed erroneously. In Florida, tho, shooting someone breaking into your home is doubly protected since we have the "stand your ground" law as well as the right to use deadly force to stop a forcible felony - including burglary.

You may be right that someone advancing toward an armed person is intent on assault. The question becomes is the use of deadly force against a single unarmed attacker justified? Again, my POV is that I'd rather shoot the attacker while he is still armed.
Donn57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 14:00   #62
SpringerTGO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
Because you don't get to base reasonableness on what what could happen. It seems as if many in this thread have forgotten the basic elements of use of deadly force or never learned them. It appears that in the OP we have only one, and at best two, of the four elements.
David,
I usually agree with you, and most likely we agree on this as well.
The bottom line to me is that the attacker came at me with a weapon, and is continuing the attack after dropping it, and seeing mine.
Like others in this thread, I'm older and weaker, but regardless of that, it still comes down to whether it is worth risking jail by shooting the attacker, or worth risking my life by wrestling over my weapon.

If I was convinced my life is still at risk, I'd rather take my chances with the courts.
SpringerTGO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 14:13   #63
GlockinNJ
Senior Member
 
GlockinNJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: PRONJ
Posts: 2,710
Quote:
Originally Posted by badge315 View Post
And yet there is a legal presumption that any uninvited person in your home is there to kill you, whether or not there's any indication that that is actually the case. Any assumption that an unarmed individual aggressively advancing toward an armed person is not intent on violent assault defies logic.

Personally, I'm confident in my ability to articulate why I felt my life was in danger if I ever have to utilize deadly force.
Badge, if I ever get into this situation, I am calling you to be part of my defense team.

This thread has gotten ridiculous. We should all decide right now what we will do in this situation, because if "shoot him" isn't your answer, then you should sell all your guns. In the heat of the moment, there's no time to wrangle over the possible legal options and implications. Hesitation will get you killed, probably with your own gun. If you are afraid of going to jail for shooting an intruder, then sell your guns.
GlockinNJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 14:46   #64
Donn57
Just me
 
Donn57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sunny Florida
Posts: 1,066


Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockinNJ View Post
Badge, if I ever get into this situation, I am calling you to be part of my defense team.

This thread has gotten ridiculous. We should all decide right now what we will do in this situation, because if "shoot him" isn't your answer, then you should sell all your guns. In the heat of the moment, there's no time to wrangle over the possible legal options and implications. Hesitation will get you killed, probably with your own gun. If you are afraid of going to jail for shooting an intruder, then sell your guns.
I agree. Hesitation will get you killed which is why I am having a hard time understanding why so many folks would hesitate to shoot an attacker armed with a knife.
Donn57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 15:04   #65
Cream Soda Kid
Senior Member
 
Cream Soda Kid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,252
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
You offer a good point. Yes, there is a great disparity of force available due to your poor health. So it might be reasonable for you to use a higher level of force than someone else. That is what "reasonable" is all about...if someone else was you, what would they have done? Now, is lethal force justified? Again, can you explain to the court (or more likely have your lawyer explain) why you felt that level of force was the only viable option? If so you are probably gong to be OK. You used some key phrases: "If he were to get his hands on me" -and- "the possibility of death." How likely was it he would have been able to get his hands on you if you didn't shoot? How much possibility of death was there if you did not shoot? That is the hurdle you have to get over. That hurdle is at different heights for all of us.
Dr. Armstrong, thank you, I always appreciate your informative and well reasoned posts.
Regards,
Lee, aka Cream Soda Kid
Cream Soda Kid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 15:12   #66
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 36,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by poodleshooter1 View Post
Let's say you had legal justification to shoot and drew, perhaps because they were approaching with a knife or bat in hand. When you drew your gun they dropped their weapon and stopped advancing. Now you're not able to shoot and are holding them at gunpoint (who would hoster at this point lol).

Let's say the start talking to you and are approaching slowly step by step. If you can, try to create distance and put an object between you and them, sure. But whether you can or can't create distance and place an object between you, do you have legal justification to shoot if they disobey commands to stop advancing, etc. or do you actually have to get to the point where they are two feet from you and able to snatch your gun, and actually trying to snatch your gun?

What are the elements of such a situation?
Read your state statutes. Mine says I have to be in imminent danger of death, serious physical injury, etc., going down to "any felony involving the use of force." Assaulting somebody with your fist is not a felony here, so I'd have a hard time making that look justified.
__________________
Quote:
This is the internet - you will never learn to shoot here.
- Me, 2014.
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 15:13   #67
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 36,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockinNJ View Post
Badge, if I ever get into this situation, I am calling you to be part of my defense team.

This thread has gotten ridiculous. We should all decide right now what we will do in this situation, because if "shoot him" isn't your answer, then you should sell all your guns. In the heat of the moment, there's no time to wrangle over the possible legal options and implications. Hesitation will get you killed, probably with your own gun. If you are afraid of going to jail for shooting an intruder, then sell your guns.
That only makes sense if you ignore most of the original post.
__________________
Quote:
This is the internet - you will never learn to shoot here.
- Me, 2014.
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 16:20   #68
David Armstrong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Lake Charles, LA
Posts: 11,125
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
David,
I usually agree with you, and most likely we agree on this as well.
The bottom line to me is that the attacker came at me with a weapon, and is continuing the attack after dropping it, and seeing mine.
I'm not sure why that should matter. Would you think it appropriate to pull out you gun and shoot him if he had started the attack without the knife in the first place? If not, you will have a hard time justifying shooting him now.
Quote:
Like others in this thread, I'm older and weaker, but regardless of that, it still comes down to whether it is worth risking jail by shooting the attacker, or worth risking my life by wrestling over my weapon.

If I was convinced my life is still at risk, I'd rather take my chances with the courts.
Sure. Iif you are convinced, that is the way to go. The question is if you can convince a jury that your life was still at risk.
David Armstrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 16:25   #69
David Armstrong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Lake Charles, LA
Posts: 11,125
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockinNJ View Post
Badge, if I ever get into this situation, I am calling you to be part of my defense team.

This thread has gotten ridiculous. We should all decide right now what we will do in this situation, because if "shoot him" isn't your answer, then you should sell all your guns. In the heat of the moment, there's no time to wrangle over the possible legal options and implications. Hesitation will get you killed, probably with your own gun. If you are afraid of going to jail for shooting an intruder, then sell your guns.
That is nice rhetoric, but really doesn't have much to do with the scenario as posted. In the scenario the BG has dropped his weapon, is approaching slowly, and is talking to you. If you consider that a "heat of the moment" that requires a split-second decision, and the only decision is to shoot, maybe YOU are the one that needs to sell the guns, as clearly you don't understand the dynamics of use of force.
David Armstrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 16:26   #70
wjv
Senior Member
 
wjv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 12,872
I would very LOUDLY yell something like: "STOP! DO NOT COME ANY CLOSER OR I'LL SHOOT".

Then shoot.

That way the witness will say " I heard him tell the guy to back off, but the guy didn't stop. . ."
__________________
Bill
Pacific NW


The urge to save humanity is almost always a false-face for the urge to rule it.
- H. L. Mencken -
wjv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 16:27   #71
David Armstrong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Lake Charles, LA
Posts: 11,125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donn57 View Post
I agree. Hesitation will get you killed which is why I am having a hard time understanding why so many folks would hesitate to shoot an attacker armed with a knife.
That is actually a pretty key point. If the danger was low enough you didn't see a need to shoot before, why does the danger suddenly increase after he gets rid of his weapon?
David Armstrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 16:28   #72
David Armstrong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Lake Charles, LA
Posts: 11,125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cream Soda Kid View Post
Dr. Armstrong, thank you, I always appreciate your informative and well reasoned posts.
Regards,
Lee, aka Cream Soda Kid
Always glad to do what little bit I can.
David Armstrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 16:33   #73
Gunnut 45/454
Senior Member
 
Gunnut 45/454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 14,049
BailRecoveryAgent
Why would they play out differently? You did say perp was DRT with no witnesses it your word against a dead mans! I'd say both are golden.
__________________
Gunnut45/454-One shot one kill!
Gunnut 45/454 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 16:40   #74
SpringerTGO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
I'm not sure why that should matter. Would you think it appropriate to pull out you gun and shoot him if he had started the attack without the knife in the first place? If not, you will have a hard time justifying shooting him now.

Sure. Iif you are convinced, that is the way to go. The question is if you can convince a jury that your life was still at risk.
He started the attack with the knife, and it was appropriate to draw the weapon and fire when he attacked, depending on distance. Depending on distance again, it still might be appropriate to fire.

There are too many variables.

If he was within 10' with the knife (when he dropped it) shooting would have been more than appropriate. If you don't have the weapon already aimed at him from that distance, you don't have time to draw it, and barely have time to fire even if it is drawn and aimed. If he closed from there, unarmed, he could have my weapon in a heartbeat.
SpringerTGO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 17:39   #75
barnettbill
Senior Member
 
barnettbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Abilene TX
Posts: 312
Texas... Castle Doctrine... Drop 'em.
__________________
The Big Dawg's Club #1324
Thin to win - G36 Club #48
Kalashnikov Klub #1337
Kel-Tec Club #88
G-36, PF-9,P-3AT, Romanian WASR 10/63, Kimber 1911 TLE II Stainless
barnettbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 18:21   #76
Spiffums
I.C.P.
 
Spiffums's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,390
Approaching someone with a weapon drawn and pointed at you after you stopped your current attempt to harm that person doesn't sound like he/she wants to hug you and forget all about it.
Spiffums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 19:10   #77
Schrag4
Senior Member
 
Schrag4's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 899
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
That is actually a pretty key point. If the danger was low enough you didn't see a need to shoot before, why does the danger suddenly increase after he gets rid of his weapon?
Easy. Because he's closer to me now then he was before.

You must be a big guy, and trained in hand-to-hand combat. I'm not. If the attacker has 50 lbs of lean muscle on me and he's still advancing, I'm guessing he'll either take the gun from me or he'll beat me and then take the gun from me. The situation changed when he dropped the knife and walked closer. It actually got MORE dangerous for me, IMO. I don't think I'm the only one who would feel "safer" when the guy is 20 feet away with a knife in his hand than when he's 10 feet away without a knife, having already shown intent to harm me.
Schrag4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 19:21   #78
wuvmyglock
Senior Member
 
wuvmyglock's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 364
SHOOT!! Just make sure there is only one side to the story...
wuvmyglock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 20:02   #79
poodleshooter1
Senior Member
 
poodleshooter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donn57 View Post
I agree. Hesitation will get you killed which is why I am having a hard time understanding why so many folks would hesitate to shoot an attacker armed with a knife.
Perhaps you are having a hard time understanding because you did not read the OP?

He is no longer armed with a knife....

Last edited by poodleshooter1; 08-25-2011 at 20:04..
poodleshooter1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2011, 20:10   #80
BailRecoveryAgent
Rude Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,066
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 View Post
BailRecoveryAgent
Why would they play out differently? You did say perp was DRT with no witnesses it your word against a dead mans! I'd say both are golden.
I didn't say there were or were not witness' present. I was merely pointing out that disparity of force comes into play here.
BailRecoveryAgent is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 23:32.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 745
191 Members
554 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31