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Old 08-25-2011, 20:25   #81
Deaf Smith
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Guys,

Just as a cop what they would do if they disarmed someone and that person started walking toward them ignoring the cops demands they stop.

And keep in mind there is a weapon there... yours. If the BG grabs it then you are in jeopardy. That BG is actually just walking toward a weapon they intend on using.

And consider if you are not good at H2H, well, you gonna let them take your gun?

So yes, shoot. Especially if you are in a state with a stand-your-ground law.

Just be able to articulate to the cops WHY you felt you had to shoot.

Deaf
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Old 08-25-2011, 20:28   #82
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Haven't you ever heard the police....bang bang...stop..police.
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Old 08-25-2011, 20:35   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
Guys,

Just as a cop what they would do if they disarmed someone and that person started walking toward them ignoring the cops demands they stop.

And keep in mind there is a weapon there... yours. If the BG grabs it then you are in jeopardy. That BG is actually just walking toward a weapon they intend on using.

And consider if you are not good at H2H, well, you gonna let them take your gun?

So yes, shoot. Especially if you are in a state with a stand-your-ground law.

Just be able to articulate to the cops WHY you felt you had to shoot.

Deaf

Good post except for the part about convincing the cops why you felt you had to shoot. That conversation is to be had with an ATTORNEY.
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Old 08-26-2011, 06:27   #84
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Originally Posted by GlockinNJ View Post
Badge, if I ever get into this situation, I am calling you to be part of my defense team.

This thread has gotten ridiculous. We should all decide right now what we will do in this situation, because if "shoot him" isn't your answer, then you should sell all your guns. In the heat of the moment, there's no time to wrangle over the possible legal options and implications. Hesitation will get you killed, probably with your own gun. If you are afraid of going to jail for shooting an intruder, then sell your guns.
Exactly.

Once the determination is made that the situation requires a deadly force response, then action must be taken. Pulling out a gun to dissuade an attacker whom you fear means to do you mortal harm is never a good idea. The gun comes out when it's time to fire. Not before, and certainly not after.

I know the natural reaction is to hope that the attacker will retreat, but that a dangerous game.

I've been close to that situation before - two trespassers were in my back yard at 2:00am. One of them kept advancing towards me, despite my telling him to turn around and leave the way he came. When he was within 30 ft. I yelled, "I've got a gun," and he turned and ran. Had he continued advancing, I would have shot him. Would I have faced a Grand Jury? Probably. But a witness would have corroborated the fact that the intruder advanced towards me with his hand in his pocket, after I'd warned him about the gun.

No jury in Florida would have indicted me.
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:46   #85
wrczx3
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Shoot the guy! Maybe he has another weapon in his pocket? I would also rather have to deal with my lawyer than have my family deal with the funeral home.
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:58   #86
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If he closed from there, unarmed, he could have my weapon in a heartbeat.
That is the key, though. If he had started this whole affair without the knife, would it be appropriate to shoot him? That is my point. The knife/club, at this point of the situation, is almost a non-issue, as it has been taken out of the equation. So we are back to "unarmed man, approaching slowly, talking to you." Does that justify using deadly force? If so, you're probably good to go. If not, you're probably in trouble.
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:01   #87
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Pull the trigger.

It was obviously the impact of the SD rounds that made them drop their weapons.
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:01   #88
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Easy. Because he's closer to me now then he was before.
So? Do the same scenario without the knife or club. Does "closer" now give a deadly force justification?

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You must be a big guy, and trained in hand-to-hand combat. I'm not. If the attacker has 50 lbs of lean muscle on me and he's still advancing, I'm guessing he'll either take the gun from me or he'll beat me and then take the gun from me.
Sorry, but "guess" does not provide reasonable belief.
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The situation changed when he dropped the knife and walked closer. It actually got MORE dangerous for me, IMO. I don't think I'm the only one who would feel "safer" when the guy is 20 feet away with a knife in his hand than when he's 10 feet away without a knife, having already shown intent to harm me.
The issue isn't "safer", the issue is if you can explain to the court why it was reasonable to shoot an unarmed man who was slowly walking toward you and talking to you. Is a 50 pound weight difference sufficient for that is the question.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 08-26-2011 at 09:52..
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:56   #89
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from deaf smith:
Just as a cop what they would do if they disarmed someone and that person started walking toward them ignoring the cops demands they stop.
That actually happens quite a bit, and generally the officer does not shoot. And if he did lots of folks here on GT and elsewhere would be yelling about "why did you have to shoot him since he was unarmed?"
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:15   #90
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Even if the weapon is dropped the perp is still moving towards you they are still a threat because you can't tell if they have another weapon
I would also assume they intend to try and disarm me and use my weapon against me, hence they are still a threat and would be dealt with as such.
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:42   #91
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Easy. Because he's closer to me now then he was before.

You must be a big guy, and trained in hand-to-hand combat. I'm not. If the attacker has 50 lbs of lean muscle on me and he's still advancing, I'm guessing he'll either take the gun from me or he'll beat me and then take the gun from me. The situation changed when he dropped the knife and walked closer. It actually got MORE dangerous for me, IMO. I don't think I'm the only one who would feel "safer" when the guy is 20 feet away with a knife in his hand than when he's 10 feet away without a knife, having already shown intent to harm me.
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Exactly.

Exactly.
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:51   #92
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I would also assume they intend to try and disarm me and use my weapon against me, hence they are still a threat and would be dealt with as such.
So, an unarmed person, who you know to be unarmed, approaches you slowly saying they want to kill you. You will pull out your gun and shoot them?

To be clear, folks, I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't shoot. I'm suggesting you better be able to justify "I shot an unarmed man because I was scared", as that is the reasoning many are offering. That might or might not be a valid reason depending on a number of factors.

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Old 08-26-2011, 11:30   #93
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So, an unarmed person, who you know to be unarmed
But we don't know that.
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Old 08-26-2011, 12:07   #94
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Just hand over your weapon, and raise your puny arms real high!
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Old 08-26-2011, 12:13   #95
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That is the key, though. If he had started this whole affair without the knife, would it be appropriate to shoot him? That is my point. The knife/club, at this point of the situation, is almost a non-issue, as it has been taken out of the equation. So we are back to "unarmed man, approaching slowly, talking to you." Does that justify using deadly force? If so, you're probably good to go. If not, you're probably in trouble.
But the BG did, in fact, start the assault with a knife (in the original scenario). Does the fact that he has disarmed himself when confronted with armed resistance suddenly place an obligation on the intended victim to disarm themself as well?

What would you suggest one do in such a scenario? Reholster and start from scratch? (not being a smartypants, I really want to know if you'd consider that a viable option for a non-LEO?)
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Old 08-26-2011, 13:43   #96
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What would you suggest one do in such a scenario? Reholster and start from scratch? (not being a smartypants, I really want to know if you'd consider that a viable option for a non-LEO?)
Wait up a sec.

Why do you think my cop standard of reasonable fear for my life is somehow different than yours? If you're not willing to justify the cop shooting an empty-handed man who won't stay back, why should we justify your actions when faced with the exact same threat?
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Old 08-26-2011, 13:53   #97
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Wait up a sec.

Why do you think my cop standard of reasonable fear for my life is somehow different than yours? If you're not willing to justify the cop shooting an empty-handed man who won't stay back, why should we justify your actions when faced with the exact same threat?
I only specified a non-LEO because a civilian would not be expected to attempt to apprehend the BG, whereas an LEO might be expected to do just that in this case.
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Old 08-26-2011, 14:01   #98
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I only specified a non-LEO because a civilian would not be expected to attempt to apprehend the BG, whereas an LEO might be expected to do just that in this case.
But no one's offering suggestions for apprehending anyone here. They're all saying that this guy is such an immediate threat to life that they're justified in shooting him. (A couple are talking about preventing felonies, but that's a difference without distinction here.)

So. If the empty-handed guy is that much of a threat to you, then surely he's that much of a threat to me.

IMO, that people are expecting a different response from LE isn't an attribution of super-human powers to cops. It's the proper realization that the deadly threat generally isn't there, and they expect cops to play by the rules. My point is that the rules are identical for the non-LEO when it comes to defense of life.

ETA: Sorry, just realized that I never answered your question. Yes, if deadly force isn't justified, I expect people to not use it. That may mean holstering, that may mean applying the fine art of the muzzle thump, that may mean a lot of things. There's a vast gray area between the time to talk and the time to shoot, and this scenario illustrates that. Being able to handle that gulf is one of the decsions you have to make that I talked about earlier.
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Old 08-26-2011, 14:02   #99
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I only specified a non-LEO because a civilian would not be expected to attempt to apprehend the BG, whereas an LEO might be expected to do just that in this case.
LEOs are civilians.
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Old 08-26-2011, 14:03   #100
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While I think this is a great thread (not really), it's clear no one here really knows anything about the legal aspect of this subject. I'm going to ask this in the GATE forum for Ayoob to comment on.
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