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Old 12-10-2011, 10:28   #61
Jerry
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
So, for those saying you want "Constitutional Carry" in the absolute purest sense, you have no problem with a 2-times convicted serial rapist carrying a gun, right? Because saying he can't? That's gun control. You realize this, yes? When comments are made like "I think every legal person should be allowed to carry however they want", you are already putting restrictions in place. Define "legal person", or more correctly, define how someone is NOT eligible. Welcome to the world of "reasonable gun control."


So, which are you? Are you a 100% supporter of the 2nd Amendment? Or do you believe in states' rights? Because the two CAN BE mutually exclusive.
There is a fallacy in your thought process. The problem does not lie with the Second Amendment GUARANTEEING the right of a two times convicted serial rapist having a gun because regardless of the law he will. The problem lies with the two times convicted serial rapist being allowed to walk amongst us. What is the difference if he’s raping is facilitated with the use of a gun, knife, broken bottle, brick or a hammer? Say knife or brick or hammer along with the word rape and it oh my, she was raped. Say raped at gun point and it’s the gun that becomes the focal point. Why? Emotion and no other reason!

Yes, I'm a 100% supporter of the 2nd. Amendment. Funny how they have picked and chosen which Amendments override “states rights(?)” and which one don't. Oh! And here’s another little tid-bit for you. The states have no rights. Only The People have rights. The Constitution doesn’t grant rights it acknowledges them and tells the government what it CAN and CAN NOT DO

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Notice it doesn’t say “rights” it says “POWERS”.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:40   #62
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If there's a gun around, I wanna control it.
This!!

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Old 12-10-2011, 10:44   #63
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Why do you believe the 2nd Amendment should be the only absolute right of the Bill of Rights? None of the others are.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:51   #64
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Originally Posted by polyman305 View Post
You tried talking to a lawyer, just getting some advice about it? Because lawyers can make 1 phone call that will get further than your 500 calls/emails/letters ever will. I hope this is not the case but it sounds like someone may have used your name. Also, if NICS is missing some type of info on you like if your citizenship,military discharge, birth certificate, or something is slightly off or whatever that can always get you a non approval.
They don't want us to have guns anyways man. So its not like they will be in a hurry to resolve your issue. I know it sucks like a hooker on a sat night guy.
Thanks for the advice but....

My middle name is not a common one. I give them my middle name not just an initial and my SS#.

I’ve had nothing but bad experiences when dealing with lawyers. Lawyers have lied to me on more than one occasion causing me grief. My daughter too! Divorce lawyer lied through her teeth. My daughter got screwed and since then the lawyer has hung her out to dry. I want nothing else to do with lawyers.

I’ve said ever since NICS was rumored that honorable men and women would get screwed by it. I just never imagined I’d be one of them.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:55   #65
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Why do you believe the 2nd Amendment should be the only absolute right of the Bill of Rights? None of the others are.
Personally, I've never said it should be absolute. Why do you believe it deserves less protection then the others though?

The pen IS mightier then the sword and yet we don't need to get a permit to exercise free speech.

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.... I believe the SCOTUS Heller decision reaffirmed the individual rights of the 2A and McDonald "incorporated" them to the states. They said that the right of self defense and to have firearms is a "fundamental right", just like the 1A. And just like the 1A, it applies to the states. Every state ratified the constitution. So the states rights argument on 2a is somewhat fallacious. The SCOTUS did say there is room for some restrictions (just like the 1A) but the bar for restrictions on a fundamental right is exceedingly high (just like the 1A).

It is true that many of the most onerous of the thousands of state/local laws, won't disappear overnight though. Strategic civil rights litigation like that which is being undertaken by the Second Amendment Foundation takes time and must be done methodically to be the most effective. But if done correctly, with time, we will be emancipated from the enslavement of onerous firearms restrictions eventually.
I believe the SCOTUS got this right and that is not absolute.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:56   #66
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Why do you believe the 2nd Amendment should be the only absolute right of the Bill of Rights? None of the others are.
I’ll answer your question with two questions. What does ”SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED” mean? Does any other Amendments end in that phrase?

Edited to add:

The founder felt so strongly about the RIGHT of The People to KEEP and “BEAR” arms” that they made sure EVERYONE would know the right was ABSOLUTE. However the government and the socialists have dumbed so many of the people down they can’t read simple English and comprehend the meaning.

A militia being necessary to a free state, (an armed citizenry of each state is necessary to protect the state from government tyranny), the RIGHT of The People SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. (the gummeyment is not allowed to put restrictions on citizens owning and carrying firearms. Anyone that does not comprehend that is either out to control the rights of others or is a complete idiot.

Does this sound like the founders wanted to allow restrictions or want the 2nd. to be ABSOLUTE?

Quote:
“I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.” George Mason

“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.” Thomas Jefferson

“Americans need not fear the federal government because they enjoy the advantage of being armed, which you possess over the people of almost every other nation.” James Madison

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" Patrick Henry

The atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference. They deserve a place of honor with all good men. [George Washington]

"Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." --John Adams

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government . . . . No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms in his own hands." --Thomas Jefferson

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."--Noah Webster, 1787
The RIGHT of The People to keep and bear was meant to be an is ABSOLUTE. Any law to the contrary is unconstitutional.
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:48   #67
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The RIGHT of The People to keep and bear was meant to be an is ABSOLUTE. Any law to the contrary is unconstitutional.
I suspect we are on the same page with this... However, I think I define absolute differently. As I see it, "absolute" means that something can't even be touched even with due process (trial). I don't see any rights as absolute.
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:07   #68
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I'm all up for building more prisons and restoring all the cancelled social programs that treated mentally deranged people so that we can allow them to exercise their 2A right.

The day that all criminals (as defined by society) and psychotics (as defined by society) can be safely locked away and/or treated medically in such a way that eliminates the danger to society forever is the day I'll agree to NOT put any restrictions on gun ownership.

There are some people who should not be allowed to own guns. And if that statement along with my sigline causes you any confusion, well, I guess you'll just have to figure that out yourself...
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Old 12-12-2011, 11:40   #69
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NO!!!!! "No free man shall ever be debarred from the use of arms" Thomas Jefferson
The following is should how it should be.

Felons still can't get firearms, drug related offenses must be over 10 yrs ago to purchase(no burst/full auto allowed), domestic violence must be over 8 years ago to purchase (no burst/full auto allowed).

Handguns-18 y/o w/ safety class(like hunters safety course held at local gunstore) 21 w/o the class, Military personnel exempt from taking class

Long guns- 16 y/o

Suppressors- 18 y/o over the counter purchase

No capacity limit on magazines

Conceal carry- Military personnel will have a condensed course Held on base. This would fall under the same AR that the motorcycle safety course falls under. This would be required to conceal carry on gov installations(proof would be just easy as having a meal card made). If personnel convicted of field grade art.15's can not participate. Personnel on staff duty, leadership, and Courtesy patrol(cp) WOULD BE REQUIRED TO CONCEAL CARRY.

FBI instant check still in effect

No wait time

No limit on quantity

I think I tapped everything I wanted to annndd LESS THAN TWO DAYS IM BACK HOME STATESIDE WAAAHOOOOO

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Old 12-12-2011, 12:33   #70
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I suspect we are on the same page with this... However, I think I define absolute differently. As I see it, "absolute" means that something can't even be touched even with due process (trial). I don't see any rights as absolute.
We’re close but you’re not quite there yet.

I understand, however… Show me where the Constitution grants the government the power to deny any “FREE” man’s rights. The key word being FREE. After all, some crimes are punishable by death. However, the Gummyment has not been granted the power to punishing free men.


The Amendments to the Constitution were written to PROTECT FREE MEN. The Constitution and particularly the Amendments are precisely to restrict the gummeyment. They don’t grant freedoms they ACKNOWLEDGE them and forbid gummyment intrusion on them.

The ACLU and other socialists have dumbed people down so much they actually think there is such a thing as separation of church and state. They press the gummeyment into making laws restricting religious activity on public property. And what is the first thing stated in the First Amendment? Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” Again the MORONS have interoperated that to mean the gummeyment CAN make laws forbidding the expression of religion in and on public places.


Quote:
“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.” Thomas Jefferson The atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference. They deserve a place of honor with all good men. [George Washington]


"Let us hear no more of confidence in man, but let us keep THEM [men in government] from mischief by binding them down by the chains of the Constitution." [Thomas Jefferson] [emphasis added]

"Congress shall make no law, shall not be infringed".
Sounds pretty much like they wanted at least those Amendments to be ABSOLUTE if not all.
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Old 12-12-2011, 12:42   #71
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I'm all up for building more prisons and restoring all the cancelled social programs that treated mentally deranged people so that we can allow them to exercise their 2A right.

The day that all criminals (as defined by society) and psychotics (as defined by society) can be safely locked away and/or treated medically in such a way that eliminates the danger to society forever is the day I'll agree to NOT put any restrictions on gun ownership.

There are some people who should not be allowed to own guns. And if that statement along with my sigline causes you any confusion, well, I guess you'll just have to figure that out yourself...
But then driving automobiles, having gasoline and matches, knives, bottles, bricks, fertilizer and diesel fuel is ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps you shouldn't be allowed to have firearms since it appears you may have a mental defect.
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Old 12-12-2011, 12:44   #72
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I am not for any foreign (other than me or my family) control over my firearms. Firearms are a given right, set forth by our founding fathers who found the matter important enough to make an amendment over 200 years ago to protect our ability to keep and bear our firearms to this day and until the United States no longer exists.

As for Our right to keep and bear arms, bear means obviously to me that we should all have the right to carry our arms it doesn't g. And to many in this Country the get any more clear. Now to many to carry (concealed or open) is given and recognized, however in my state (Illinois) we are still shackled and restrained from using our given rights because of one city. One city to control them all, Chicago.

So I believe that a LAW regulating the sale of firearms to criminals is a necessity but as for a 'law' to restrict our (law abiding free America's) gun ownership or to register our firearms is completely UN-constitutional and UN-ethical and just plain wrong.
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Old 12-12-2011, 13:41   #73
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Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
But then driving automobiles, having gasoline and matches, knives, bottles, bricks, fertilizer and diesel fuel is ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps you shouldn't be allowed to have firearms since it appears you may have a mental defect.
Stating that deranged and/or habitually violent individuals shouldn't have access to bottles, and equating that to controlling their access to guns sounds to me like the ravings of someone living in their own little fantasy world.

I don't want to take your guns away. Really. Unless you are a deranged and/or habitually violent person. Then I most certainly do.
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Old 12-12-2011, 14:19   #74
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Mandatory training opens the door to take away the gun rights of most of us by back-door methods. All that the gun grabbers have to do is to get training requirements that are too expensive and inconvenient for the average person to meet. That is exactly what DC is doing right now.
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Old 12-12-2011, 15:18   #75
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Mandatory training opens the door to take away the gun rights of most of us by back-door methods. All that the gun grabbers have to do is to get training requirements that are too expensive and inconvenient for the average person to meet. That is exactly what DC is doing right now.
So we don't let them do that. But we accept that training in necessary.
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Old 12-12-2011, 17:03   #76
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Stating that deranged and/or habitually violent individuals shouldn't have access to bottles, and equating that to controlling their access to guns sounds to me like the ravings of someone living in their own little fantasy world.
Are you that slow? Bottle + gasoline + fire = arsonist. Do you know how many people are killed yearly in arson fires? Probably not!

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I don't want to take your guns away. Really. Unless you are a deranged and/or habitually violent person. Then I most certainly do.
So let me see… Because habitual “violent” offenders will have guns if our right is not restricted we should be OK with having our right infringed. Right? Here's a little clue for you. They have guns anyway. So you want to restrict a right because YOU have irrational fears. Name me a case where a law has stopped a criminal from committing a criminal offense.
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Old 12-12-2011, 18:47   #77
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Are you that slow? Bottle + gasoline + fire = arsonist. Do you know how many people are killed yearly in arson fires? Probably not!
Average of around 2960 per year from 2002 - 2010
http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t31662010.pdf

Firearms homicides are in the range of 7-9,000 a year.


You cannot keep flammable materials out of the hands of arsonists. You cannot keep firearms out of the hands of criminals.

But restricting access give the police one more tool to use to put the animals in the cages where they belong.

Laws saying you can't own a firearm with a violent felony record shouldn't concern you unless you're a violent felon.
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Old 12-12-2011, 18:58   #78
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Originally Posted by wheelman707 View Post
NO!!!!! "No free man shall ever be debarred from the use of arms" Thomas Jefferson
The following is should how it should be.

Felons still can't get firearms, drug related offenses must be over 10 yrs ago to purchase(no burst/full auto allowed), domestic violence must be over 8 years ago to purchase (no burst/full auto allowed).

Handguns-18 y/o w/ safety class(like hunters safety course held at local gunstore) 21 w/o the class, Military personnel exempt from taking class

Long guns- 16 y/o

Suppressors- 18 y/o over the counter purchase

No capacity limit on magazines

Conceal carry- Military personnel will have a condensed course Held on base. This would fall under the same AR that the motorcycle safety course falls under. This would be required to conceal carry on gov installations(proof would be just easy as having a meal card made). If personnel convicted of field grade art.15's can not participate. Personnel on staff duty, leadership, and Courtesy patrol(cp) WOULD BE REQUIRED TO CONCEAL CARRY.

FBI instant check still in effect

No wait time

No limit on quantity

I think I tapped everything I wanted to annndd LESS THAN TWO DAYS IM BACK HOME STATESIDE WAAAHOOOOO
I love people that want to rewrite the Constitution to fit their particular idea of what is best for everyone else. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why the first ten amendments were written.

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They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. [Benjamin Franklin, 1759]
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Old 12-12-2011, 19:31   #79
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Average of around 2960 per year from 2002 - 2010
http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t31662010.pdf

Firearms homicides are in the range of 7-9,000 a year.


You cannot keep flammable materials out of the hands of arsonists. You cannot keep firearms out of the hands of criminals.

But restricting access give the police one more tool to use to put the animals in the cages where they belong.

Laws saying you can't own a firearm with a violent felony record shouldn't concern you unless you're a violent felon.

Good Google search. However, firstly, your firearms homicide numbers are bogus. They include self defense and accidental (non criminal) shootings. They also include homicides committed with illegal firearms. You know the ones that the criminals don’t have because of gun control laws. Second, your idea that restrictions help law enforcement is bogus. A cop can’t tell if a felon has a weapon unless he has a reason to stop him in the first place. Then he actually has to catch him in possession of the firearm. (“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.” Thomas Jefferson). Thirdly, denying a “free man” one right is bogus. And last but not least, allowing someone that is to dangerous to walk the street to partake of every “privilege” a free man does while trying to deny one “Constitutionally protected RIGHT that truely dangerous criminals do anyway is not only ludicrous, but if one actually believes it works he/she is plainly MORONIC.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Laws saying you can't own a firearm with a violent felony record shouldn't concern you unless you're a violent felon.
Any Constitutionally guaranteed right that is denied to a "free man" should be a concern to any and every honorable man.

Edited to add:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Why do you believe the 2nd Amendment should be the only absolute right of the Bill of Rights? None of the others are.

WarCry I’m still awaiting your answers to my questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
I’ll answer your question with two questions. What does ”SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED” mean? Does any other Amendments end in that phrase?
Another heads up for you. “Congress shall make no law”. Do you know what amendment starts with that? I’d say that’s pretty absolute also. But you wouldn't know it by the unconstitutional laws.
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Last edited by Jerry; 12-12-2011 at 21:55..
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Old 12-12-2011, 19:53   #80
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Jerry,

I'm glad to see that we are not at odds. Keep up the good fight. To anyone who hasn't thought about it, what are you going to do to protect your freedoms. That is actually just a question for you to think about and requires no response here. If you haven't given it some serious thought, when the time comes to act, you will not act and you will lose whatever they have come to take.
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