GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-22-2011, 12:11   #1
45reloader
Live Free
 
45reloader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: PA South East
Posts: 1,511
How long after the fall will they come for our resources

Do you worry starving nations will send millions of people to our bread basket after the fall. Let's face it after all exports of food cease we might get massive numbers of starving people willing to do anything to survive.
__________________
Only the Dead Have Seen the End of War.
45reloader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2011, 12:40   #2
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,395
The only way they could get here is by walking so it would just be Canada and Mexico. Seems to me we already have a problem with millions of unwanted coming here.

The question is, what are WE going to do when all the oil stops flowing? Drill baby, drill.
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2011, 12:49   #3
Chindo18Z
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 63
How would they send them? How would they get here? Swim?

Seriously, I think that threat is extremely low as the only connection between us and the starving world is two oceans and an arctic ice cap.

Central Americans on the Equator live in a region of plentiful food and dependable growing climate. Anyone who did march North en masse would have to survive crossing Mexico...and then be met by our forces on our border. That process (and our matching defensive preps) would transpire over many months. It would be more likely that North Americans march south to where the food is.

Millions of people cannot simply be placed into non-existent fleets of boats and then be shipped to North America. Unless you are simply trying to feed the fishes.

There isn't even an aggressor military force on planet Earth that could do that with their troops. Not even the Chinese.

You've got no worries on that count.

After a Total Fall? A toe-hold military invasion of a few points of desirable territory (HA?, FLA?, coastal Texas? NW California?)? Maybe. But not millions or even hundreds of thousands of invaders. More like a couple thousand or less in an post-apocalyptic world.

Moving troops requires aircraft and ships...which require fuel and technical infrastructure. Otherwise, you'd need several decades to redevelop an Age-of-Sail Navy that could mount a localized landing.

By that time, our children would be full-blown AR-totin', Mad Max ridin', Cannibal Warriors waiting for free lunch to arrive on the beaches.

Last edited by Chindo18Z; 12-22-2011 at 16:36..
Chindo18Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2011, 13:29   #4
TN.Frank
Mad Hatter
 
TN.Frank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Down the Rabbit Hole
Posts: 4,142
First off, they'll be to hungry to come very far so as long as you don't live near the borders you'll be fine and second off, we're armed(or should be) so we should be able to defend ourselves against a bunch of half starved folks.
__________________
*Glock G19 Gen3, RTF2*
TN.Frank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2011, 19:21   #5
Maine1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,257
Before this happens, the US Government will try to confiscate ptivatley held food to feed those that did not prepare- redistribution, baby! IIRC, FEMA has this in their regs somewhere.

I am surpised that the gov. does not encourage all citizens to stockpile food for a year or two, groing as far as to make suggested list available, tax breaks, ect ect. This would create a reseve of food, creted out of federal budgets, yet available to the Gove when the balloon goes up.
Maine1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2011, 20:36   #6
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine1 View Post
This would create a reseve of food, creted out of federal budgets, yet available to the Gove when the balloon goes up.
Why wouldn't they just do it themselves then? Would save all the hassle/expense of going door to door tens of millions of times to collect food.
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2011, 22:20   #7
Maine1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,257
It puts resource in comunities, localized, that they do not have to pay for or transport.
They can use the "see, we took this from those evil rich people' angle to gain popular support, ect.
Just a thought, did not say it was the master plan.
Maine1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2011, 03:24   #8
kirgi08
Silver Membership
Watcher.
 
kirgi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Acme proving grounds.
Posts: 26,647
Blog Entries: 1


Gotta find me first.'08.
__________________
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

If you look like food,You will be eaten.

Rip Chad.You will be missed.
kirgi08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2011, 06:08   #9
barbedwiresmile
Unreconstructed
 
barbedwiresmile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: "Our side of the barbed wire"
Posts: 9,002
I would be much more worried about "government" coming for crops, livestock, and stores than I would a water-walking foreign zombie invasion force. You don't need foreign boogeymen when you have sociopaths right here at home.
__________________
www.barbedwiresmile.wordpress.com

"The plans differ; the planners are all alike." - Bastiat
barbedwiresmile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2011, 09:23   #10
walt cowan
Senior Member
 
walt cowan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: absurdistan
Posts: 9,999
look up 1917 russia.
__________________
the nsa was the first to read this post. eric was the second.
walt cowan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2011, 10:24   #11
sebecman
Senior Member
 
sebecman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chindo18Z View Post
How would they send them? How would they get here? Swim?

Millions of people cannot simply be placed into non-existent fleets of boats and then be shipped to North America. Unless you are simply trying to feed the fishes.
Not saying it will ever happen but I found this part of your post very funny.

How do you think the Vikings did it? Ever hear about Chris Columbus? How about the Mayflower? Do you know how the slaves came here from Africa?

Ship building does not require electricity or oil.

Just saying.
sebecman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2011, 12:33   #12
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,154
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
Yeah, you know because when they don't have enough food, they're going to be liberal enough with their supplies, and workers will work for free to build boats, to ship people who have never piloted a boat, across an ocean......


Cutting down a few trees, and nailing them togeather, does not mean you suddenly became an ocean fairing captain.
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2011, 12:38   #13
Chindo18Z
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 63
Quote:
Not saying it will ever happen but I found this part of your post very funny.

How do you think the Vikings did it? Ever hear about Chris Columbus? How about the Mayflower? Do you know how the slaves came here from Africa?

Ship building does not require electricity or oil.
Quote:
Just saying.
No ****.

If you read my post & the OP's, you'd realize that millions of starving people are not going to make it across the ATLANTIC or PACIFIC oceans without significant lead time (measured in years) needed to:

1. Build the requisite boats & ships
2. Train enough sailors to a level of competency to make such voyages
3. Train, equip, and support a necessary military invasion force

Societies who are unable to make a go of rice, corn, millet, wheat, or potato crops do not automatically possess the default knowledge, raw materials, or skills necessary to build ships and sail their populations around the planet. Kind of hard to build wooden boats...when you have already deforested your food-short landscape.

Now...if their local regimes simply push starving people out to sea as boat people...the sharks and gulls will be well fed...and a lucky few will wash up on our shores.

What happens after that is dependent upon how well armed all parties are at that time and how charitable (or hungry) Americans & Canadians are feeling on that day.

Did you ever notice how few Vikings were found alive in North America as later European settlers spread westward during a four centuries long period of colonization?

The Vikings were superlative sailors and colonizers who barely eked out a transitory toehold in North America. The Pilgrims were a paltry few hundred religious zealots who died like flies while their betters to the south were making a pretty good financial go of the Virginia Colony. The Spanish failed in their attempt to wrest North American suzerainty precisely because they could never generate enough colonists or military strength to maintain their holdings against the English, the French, the Texans, the Comanches, the Kiowas, or the Apaches. Africans were brought to the continent after mass capture by their own black tribal leaders and/or Arab slave traders... and further sale to Europeans for labor in the New World. Look up Trans-Atlantic Triangular Trade System (Sugar - Rum - Slaves).

No. Millions of starving people are not going to descend on North America. They will simply die in place instead...just as millions of starving people across the world have done in the past.

Just sayin'.

Last edited by Chindo18Z; 12-23-2011 at 12:41..
Chindo18Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2011, 17:38   #14
sebecman
Senior Member
 
sebecman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chindo18Z View Post
No ****.

If you read my post & the OP's, you'd realize that millions of starving people are not going to make it across the ATLANTIC or PACIFIC oceans without significant lead time (measured in years) needed to:

1. Build the requisite boats & ships
2. Train enough sailors to a level of competency to make such voyages
3. Train, equip, and support a necessary military invasion force

Societies who are unable to make a go of rice, corn, millet, wheat, or potato crops do not automatically possess the default knowledge, raw materials, or skills necessary to build ships and sail their populations around the planet. Kind of hard to build wooden boats...when you have already deforested your food-short landscape.

Now...if their local regimes simply push starving people out to sea as boat people...the sharks and gulls will be well fed...and a lucky few will wash up on our shores.

What happens after that is dependent upon how well armed all parties are at that time and how charitable (or hungry) Americans & Canadians are feeling on that day.

Did you ever notice how few Vikings were found alive in North America as later European settlers spread westward during a four centuries long period of colonization?

The Vikings were superlative sailors and colonizers who barely eked out a transitory toehold in North America. The Pilgrims were a paltry few hundred religious zealots who died like flies while their betters to the south were making a pretty good financial go of the Virginia Colony. The Spanish failed in their attempt to wrest North American suzerainty precisely because they could never generate enough colonists or military strength to maintain their holdings against the English, the French, the Texans, the Comanches, the Kiowas, or the Apaches. Africans were brought to the continent after mass capture by their own black tribal leaders and/or Arab slave traders... and further sale to Europeans for labor in the New World. Look up Trans-Atlantic Triangular Trade System (Sugar - Rum - Slaves).

No. Millions of starving people are not going to descend on North America. They will simply die in place instead...just as millions of starving people across the world have done in the past.

Just sayin'.
Maybe I am confused about the topic- Seems to me that in this day and age there are enough countries with the resources and skills needed to make such a migration. Not millions at once but over time and given the reproductive nature of humans, perhaps. Again if you read my post - I didn't say I thought it would ever actually happen.

Thanks for your well thought out reply! I appreciate your wit and humor...
sebecman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2011, 17:48   #15
sebecman
Senior Member
 
sebecman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Yeah, you know because when they don't have enough food, they're going to be liberal enough with their supplies, and workers will work for free to build boats, to ship people who have never piloted a boat, across an ocean......


Cutting down a few trees, and nailing them togeather, does not mean you suddenly became an ocean fairing captain.
Since the OP was extremely vague as to just what event would cause this to happen and he did ask HOW LONG? I have to imagine that any sensible action on the part of any one of scores of developed countries would require haste while resources are available and not waiting until they are at death's door.

If you want to spin a vague question about a far fetched idea to the worst possible scenario so be it.

sebecman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2011, 18:18   #16
UneasyRider
C.D.B.
 
UneasyRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,746
When will "who" come for our stuff?

I think that it will be city, county and state governments who figure out that some folks have stuff that they would like to have.
__________________
"Freedom ain't Free" Ted Nugent at the House of Blues in Orlando.

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of arms." - Aristotle,
UneasyRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2011, 20:01   #17
kirgi08
Silver Membership
Watcher.
 
kirgi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Acme proving grounds.
Posts: 26,647
Blog Entries: 1


Remember folks,I started a thread awhile ago about the "discount" cards.Those that grocers give customers that take off a certain amount of $$$ for buying a certain product.

The buyers use those stats ta plan for long range purchases.So,they keep the "card" holders name/addy ect on file.All it would take is a "warrant" and .gov would know whom bought what and when and in what quantity.Most folk don't realize this and our honest when they fill the application out.'08.
__________________
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

If you look like food,You will be eaten.

Rip Chad.You will be missed.
kirgi08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2011, 20:57   #18
Chindo18Z
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 63
Quote:
sebecman: Seems to me that in this day and age there are enough countries with the resources and skills needed to make such a migration. Not millions at once but over time and given the reproductive nature of humans, perhaps.
Perhaps you are right, although I think interlopers would run out of serious ships long before we ran out of munitions to sink them. It would have to be a somewhat unorganized mass exodus of boat people. 1980's Haiti/Cuba refugee flotillas x 10,000. Few would survive the trip unless they were coming from the Caribbean.

I think the ultimate argument against mass-migration for food would be an economic one. By the time nations realized (or admitted) that they were in such a quandary, most of their wealth would likely already have been expended. Nation states without existing fleets would hardly be in a position to buy, rent, build, or requisition ships. Commercial shipping firms would have long since re-directed their vessels to more profitable routes.

Even major nations that possess shipping (e.g., China) would hardly be in a position to simply move mass percentages of their population. Assuming they even had access to the required fuel to do so.

The most likely world response to such situations would be to move the food to the famine...rather than move the starving masses to more fertile fields. It's cheaper and easier to move grain, livestock, pesticides, irrigation equipment, consultants, & fertilizer to the problem than to move and house masses of humanity. Everyone gets paid...the standard and preferred economic equation.

Uninvited export of ill fed masses by the Have-nots would simply be regarded as invasion by the Have nations.

What's interesting to me is that we always assume that WE will be the stewards of an inexhaustible breadbasket. What if some sort of bio-engineered agricultural plague devastated our growing centers...or Yellowstone blew...etc.?

The shoe would then be on the other foot...and the survivor North Americans would be on the march...with a blue water navy, nukes, and hungry bellies. We probably could take immediate measures to secure what we need from other nations. As long as we moved decisively and quickly.

Last edited by Chindo18Z; 12-24-2011 at 09:51..
Chindo18Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2011, 22:29   #19
gimmejr
Senior Member
 
gimmejr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Northern California
Posts: 230
........................

Last edited by gimmejr; 12-23-2011 at 22:30..
gimmejr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2011, 05:27   #20
kirgi08
Silver Membership
Watcher.
 
kirgi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Acme proving grounds.
Posts: 26,647
Blog Entries: 1


Most folks fill those apps out in store,whether they have a mail drop or not.So they give accurate info and become part of the database.'08.
__________________
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

If you look like food,You will be eaten.

Rip Chad.You will be missed.
kirgi08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2011, 15:48   #21
sebecman
Senior Member
 
sebecman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,359
[QUOTE=Chindo18Z;18330278]Perhaps you are right, although I think interlopers would run out of serious ships long before we ran out of munitions to sink them. It would have to be a somewhat unorganized mass exodus of boat people. 1980's Haiti/Cuba refugee flotillas x 10,000. Few would survive the trip unless they were coming from the Caribbean.

I think the ultimate argument against mass-migration for food would be an economic one. [QUOTE]

I think you and I are on the same page.


Last edited by sebecman; 12-24-2011 at 15:49..
sebecman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2011, 18:37   #22
UneasyRider
C.D.B.
 
UneasyRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,746
[QUOTE=sebecman;18333385][QUOTE=Chindo18Z;18330278]Perhaps you are right, although I think interlopers would run out of serious ships long before we ran out of munitions to sink them. It would have to be a somewhat unorganized mass exodus of boat people. 1980's Haiti/Cuba refugee flotillas x 10,000. Few would survive the trip unless they were coming from the Caribbean.

I think the ultimate argument against mass-migration for food would be an economic one.
Quote:

I think you and I are on the same page.

People are really well armed in Florida... I don't think that it would end well for the invaders. LOL!
__________________
"Freedom ain't Free" Ted Nugent at the House of Blues in Orlando.

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of arms." - Aristotle,

Last edited by UneasyRider; 12-24-2011 at 18:37..
UneasyRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2011, 22:18   #23
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,154
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebecman View Post
Since the OP was extremely vague as to just what event would cause this to happen and he did ask HOW LONG? I have to imagine that any sensible action on the part of any one of scores of developed countries would require haste while resources are available and not waiting until they are at death's door.

If you want to spin a vague question about a far fetched idea to the worst possible scenario so be it.



If they're developed countries, why wouldn't they focus their efforts on something that actually has the ability to help, rather than building boats for a mass exodus, that isn't going to solve anything?

It was a stupid question, much like the argument of "well the vikings did it without technology."
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2011, 22:43   #24
G29Reload
Tread Lightly
 
G29Reload's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirgi08 View Post

The buyers use those stats ta plan for long range purchases.So,they keep the "card" holders name/addy ect on file.All it would take is a "warrant" and .gov would know whom bought what and when and in what quantity.Most folk don't realize this and our honest when they fill the application out.'08.
That's a bit of a stretch. A warrant can only issue for a "crime".

Even if such nebulous data was obtained, its not accurate. How much was eaten? bought for someone else? Given away? spoiled? What grounds are there to seize it or even go looking?

I would dare say .gov has a lot of other problems if its down to this. People will only go so far and when you push them too much…They'll try for weapons first, then s#$%'s ON.

Any govt so starved for things to
G29Reload is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2011, 23:17   #25
kirgi08
Silver Membership
Watcher.
 
kirgi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Acme proving grounds.
Posts: 26,647
Blog Entries: 1


If something as drastic as a "food" shortage happens this country will go nuts and .gov will take steps.Legal or not.I find it hard ta believe a big grocery chain will deny any requests from uncle sugar.That's one of the main reasons we've put in the redundancy we've got.What we got here we got the same at the other place.'08.
__________________
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

If you look like food,You will be eaten.

Rip Chad.You will be missed.
kirgi08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:02.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 766
228 Members
538 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42