GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-03-2011, 12:24   #101
inspectorjj
Senior Member
 
inspectorjj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sunny Southern California
Posts: 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
My idea of the right level of penetration is that the bullet stops just on the inside of a animal hide before it has a chance to exit.

That bullet would be as high of energy as possible.

That bullet would expand as much as possible.

That bullet would be as heavy as possible.

Have a good day.
Simple and to the point except for the penetration statement. One item I would like to add to the three bullet points above is accuracy. If these items are not your priority for either self defense or hunting, it would be my assumption that you are on the wrong forum. Overpenetration is like overkill. While there are several levels of injury, there is only one level of dead.
__________________
Comparing a 10MM to a .45 is like comparing Major League Baseball to Softball. One of them anybody can do and the other is strictly for men......JJ

Last edited by inspectorjj; 07-03-2011 at 12:30..
inspectorjj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2011, 16:27   #102
voiceofreason
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule10b5 View Post
Never done penetration tests with 10mm. With other calibers, though, I've found that unless you're using a heavyweight or bonded bullet once you pass a certain velocity threshold, you're a lot less likely to get overpenetration because the bullet expands like mad or just splatters in the target.
+1

I'd run 180grain for full power 10mm loads.

#1: hit your target
#2: get enough penetration
#3: expansion would be nice

#4: with 10mm, you only have to worry about #1
voiceofreason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2011, 08:54   #103
G26man
OBEY ME!
 
G26man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 5,764
Quote:
Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."" (emphasis added)

-- Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
by Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT
FBI ACADEMY
QUANTICO, VIRGINIA
July 14, 1989
I disagree. The FBI as well as their pet research house Firearms Tactical (Fackler, etc.) have an agenda IMO to promote larger diameter heavier bullets as an excuse for their poor performance with their 9mm service guns re. the Miami shootout. I don't know about you but I am not 12" thick, and I have no doubt the 7-8" depth and 5"" diameter gaping sphere of goo that used to be my internals after being liquefied by a 1600fps 135gr Nosler would in fact put me or just about anyone down, and not over penetrate to boot, although I agree overpenetration is not something to worry about short of rifle calibers. The remaining velocity from a handgun would most likely not be sufficient to cause grave damage.

Furthermore, temporary cavity DOES wound, given enough velocity. The generally accepted threshold is 2000fps. A G20 with a 9x25 barrel and light bullets would produce those velocities so handguns can in fact would via temporary cavity.

Furthermore who says WOUNDING is the only mechanism that stops bad guys. Could it not be that the felt shock of a high velocity fragmenting bullet would not have a psychological component that could aid in convincing the BG to stop? I don't know, do you? History shows lots of BGs were stopped with one shot from a light fast fragmenting 125gr 357 magnum slug.

Edit: Sorry I just realized this is an old thread and I had already posted some of what I reiterated here. Sorry for the duplication.
__________________
The combustion of fuel being necessary for heating and cooking in the home, the right of the people to keep fire extinguishers shall not be infringed. - Alternate structural interpretation of the 2A (to protect the people from the state militia).

Last edited by G26man; 12-22-2011 at 08:57..
G26man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2011, 09:21   #104
Jitterbug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 937
I've only been shot a couple of times...

One time I was hit in the side of the head with a single #6 pellet during a pheasant hunt. I don't know the range it was fired from, there was a lot of guy's doing a lot of shooting and it probably bounced off of a tree, before hitting me or otherwise was fired from a long distance, since there where no shooters on the side I was hit from. So I'm guessing it somehow bounced off the tree.

The pellet only broke skin and didn't penetrate bone, at least not very much. One of my buddies dug it out with my Swiss Army knife, but, I'll tell you this, it "felt" like I had been hit upside the head with a high speed baseball, bad enough to knock my off the pheasant I was shooing at... got him on the next shot though.

So...there was a definite whack to the side of the head, I can only imagine what a full on impact would have been like...or something larger then a #6 pellet, but I have no doubt it would have the potential to knock a person down...or at least rattle one enough to cause one to fall.

Not scientific I know, and before anyone else says it...now you know what's wrong with Jitterbug.

The other time I was shot was once again with an errant pellet fired from at least a 100 yards away on a dove hunt, and it didn't penetrate the seat of my hunting pants.
Jitterbug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2011, 14:13   #105
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,170
"Stopping" is cause by catastrophic damage. That's it. Simple. Ask an experienced deer hunter what brings a deer down the quickest... a shot that "dumps all its energy and stops" or one that passes all the way thru and takes the heart out with it? They will always say; The one that passes all the way thru. It doesn't matter if it's a bullet, or an arrow. It is the "cutting and tearing" the actual "damaging" that works. If it was mere "penetration" archers would be able to use simple target arrows and be successful, but they don't, they use big nasty razor blades tied to the end of a very fast moving relatively heavy stick.
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2011, 12:16   #106
hubcap500
Senior Member
 
hubcap500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 230
Over-penetration is only a factor if what's beyond the BG is not something(one) that should be hit. Always know what is between you and the target and beyond the target.
hubcap500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2011, 13:59   #107
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by hubcap500 View Post
over-penetration is only a factor if what's beyond the bg is not something(one) that should be hit. Always know what is between you and the target and beyond the target.
bingo!!! We have a winner!!!
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 21:10   #108
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,170
Note: This post is a series of posts from another thread in Mas Ayoob's forum here on GT, but it's being brought forward to this thread "Overpeneration" in "The 10 Ring" forum to be continued as it better belongs here than where it was originally.

***************


Old 11-20-2012, 13:45 #1
Billy10mm
Senior Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Hartsdale, NY
Posts: 994

For Mas: Overpenetration
Mas,

I'm sure you've seen it; the "I don't carry a (insert powerful handgun cartridge here) because I don't want to kill my neighbor after my bullet passes through the person I'm shooting at." argument.

Can you cite any cases where a relatively common automatic handgun round (let's say anything from .38spc to .45 super/10mm) passed through the center of mass (body for all intents and purposes) of its intended target (in this case a human being) and still carried enough energy to kill an innocent bystander? While I'm certain there are cases where bullets either grazed or passed through relatively thin areas (arm, neck, calf, etc) of tissue and went on to do very bad things, I'm having a hard believing and certainly FINDING any cases where a real COM shot came out the other side and went on to hurt someone. If you can cite a case, do you happen to know how often something like this happens or has happened?

My argument is that handgun bullets are relatively poor man-stoppers and that a bullet passing through someone COM is giving up a great deal of energy doing so - enough that I cannot believe that bullet would then travel an unknown distance and critically wound another individual. The Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness paper from the FBI supports this position (http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf)
__________________
Billy
G23
Fusion Tact-5 in 10mm


****************


Old 11-20-2012, 13:53 #2
Mas Ayoob
KoolAidAntidote

Mas Ayoob's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,016

Billy, the problem with over-penetration isn't so much the relative power of the handgun cartridge, but the bullet configuration. The New York Times reported the significant number of innocents (including brother officers) who had been shot with 115 grain FMJ 9mm bullets that went through and through the bad guys before they hit the good guys. It was this that finally led NYPD to switch from ball ammo to Gold Dot hollow points 13 or 14 years ago. It's one of the main reasons virtually every police department now issues expanding bullet ammunition.

A search under this topic in GT should provide you with more detailed information.

Best,
Mas


********************


Old Yesterday, 13:08 #3
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator

Tazz10m's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 5,696

Here is a pretty good discussion on the subject that pretty much covers all the bases:

Overpenetration?

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292509
__________________
Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGrip™Website
Manufacturer of AGrip™



When it gets to the point where psychotic power freaks disguised as religious leaders falsely claim Gods will and warp weak little minds in mass and send them on suicide missions to blow up, maim, mutilate, and kill, thousands of innocent men, women, and children, in an effort to take over the world; it is time to put aside diplomacy and wishful thinking and eliminate those threatening until the threat no longer exists.


*******************


Old Yesterday, 14:49 #4
Mas Ayoob
KoolAidAntidote

Mas Ayoob's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,016

Welcome, Tazz.

Anything from darkness to tunnel vision to sheetrock behind the perp to the perp's own body can block the shooter's view of an innocent bystander in the background. It's something we can't ignore. If the bystander is hit by a bullet the shooter knew or should have known was likely to overpenetrate, well, look up the definition of "deliberate indifference."

Many pooh-pooh the problem by saying misses are more likely. The miss and the over-penetrating bullet are apples and oranges. The stress and other difficulties of the shooter legitimately returning fire against a criminal are not hard to substantiate in court, and are likely to be found to be excusable if the miss strikes a bystander. A bullet the shooter knew beforehand was likely to exit and strike anyone behind his only predictable backstop, the body of the offender? Not so much.

best,
Mas


******************


Old Yesterday, 16:59 #5
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator

Tazz10m's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 5,696

Hi Mas, nice to chat with you again. Last time was at the SHOT Show back in '96 at the Haarts booth.

I hear what you're saying, which is why i'm so into proper bullet/load selection, etc. There is a bit of a dilemma that each of us that aims to defend ourselves inevitably has to deal with and that is the fact that we never really know everything we are going to be up against in a personal defense situation, and so it so important to try to research and pick what might be best for the widest variety of situation/target/barrier combinations we might encounter. We never know what kind of clothing an attacker might wear, or if the attacker is going to be using cover to attack from, (like a car), or how massive and solid and "big boned" an attacker might be. Where i live, in any given day, at any moment, the attacker could be a big huge human, or a good sized black bear... or a little "pip squeak"... There is no time to "switch loads" for one or the other.

If someone attacks you with a gun from the cover of a car and has you pinned down it's best to have a weapon/load combo capable of at least having a chance of punching through the car and still having enough "damaging potential" to hit the guy and stop him. One never knows how much bone or whatever might hinder that process.

So, my school of thought is to have the most powerful and versatile weapon that is still practical for "everyday" use. For me, right now, that's a Glock 29 with a 20 round mag filled with 200gr Black Talons. I figure i'm lucky if i get 900 fps out of the combo. Personally, i'd rather have them kicking out at 1200 fps, but that's another story. Fact is i like the bullet design (a heavy bullet with hard "knuckles" on the leading edge to potentially break bone and "punch through" followed by the razor sharp "talons" if i get lucky on the expansion, and enough left over "umph" to hopefully nail and damage the spine) and it's proven to work pretty well in the wide variety of testing i've done.

At any rate... the idea is to be able to punch through whatever is in the way and get to the so-called "vitals" and do as much incapacitating damage to the attacker(s) as possible in order to "shut him/her/them down" and "stop" the attack as quickly and efficiently as possible.

An FMJ or "ball round" in a handgun is absolutely out of the question as it's highly likely to just "zip through", do minimal damage to vitals, and keep going with plenty of left over velocity into who-knows-what or whom that is not the intended target, the attacker. It's just irresponsible from the start, in my thinking.

With a properly designed hollow point bullet and velocity, the bullet is most likely going to flatten out or otherwise change shape significantly after hitting. This means that if it does penetrate beyond the intended attacker, it is likely already lost almost all of its velocity and that combined with the flattened front end or tumbling, etc., is not likely to do any real significant damage to whatever it might hit. In other words, it has lost pretty much all of it's "damage-ability"... and so, not likely to really cause much harm, if any, to "innocents"... and any damage it might cause could more than likely be "fixed up" by a good doctor.

So, "overpenetration that causes damage to an innocent" is really, more or less, in the same category of a "well intentioned miss", except the miss has the potential to do a whole lot more damage to an innocent.

A good example is in a crowded theater or shopping mall situation. You can't "miss", BUT, you HAVE to do SOMETHING... and one has to be instantly ready to properly and accurately act if "talking the attacker down" doesn't work. And, frankly, based on experience, sometimes the "talking step", should just be completely skipped.

At a certain point, over-thinking a dire emergency situation is potentially going to get WAY more innocent people killed than a well intentioned miss... and so "you just got to shoot 'em".

Sorry for the long post.
__________________
Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGrip™Website
Manufacturer of AGrip™



When it gets to the point where psychotic power freaks disguised as religious leaders falsely claim Gods will and warp weak little minds in mass and send them on suicide missions to blow up, maim, mutilate, and kill, thousands of innocent men, women, and children, in an effort to take over the world; it is time to put aside diplomacy and wishful thinking and eliminate those threatening until the threat no longer exists.


******************


Old Yesterday, 17:14 #6
Mas Ayoob
KoolAidAntidote

Mas Ayoob's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,016

Since '96? Damn, Brook, we're both old.

I think we both agree that FMJ is a very poor choice for self-defense today, and that having chosen a bullet designed to stay in the body of the offender would be a viable defense to an accusation of deliberate indifference in our use/choice of certain ammunition.

I think we would also agree that "over-thinking" in a split-second crisis could lead to fatal hesitation, which is why we need to spend the time beforehand to think these things out.

I gotta ask: what 20-round Glock 10mm magazine are you using in your G29, and how do you conceal it?


*******************


Old Yesterday, 23:05 #7
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator

Tazz10m's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 5,696

Yeah we're old.... and feeling it, too! I was fairly young, then! Hahaha... let's see how good your memory is... Do you remember me bowing down to you and saying; "Oh, Mas... Oh, Mas... You're The Man... I read everything you write..." when we first met? Hahaha....

Yes, i agree that an FMJ or any "hard solid non-expanding bullet" is a very poor choice for self-defense out of a handgun today, BUT, based on my experience and so-called understanding of anatomy, fighting for life, weapon design/construction, law and litigation, etc., i don't really buy in to the "choose a bullet designed to stay in the body of the offender" school of thought, despite the reality that "it would be a viable defense to an accusation of deliberate indifference in our use/choice of certain ammunition".

Mas, it's a myth. It's a bullet designed by a committee of lawyers... not by those who really want to "save the children". It's a bullet designed to be "found"... not a bullet designed to have "effective stopping potential". ("Stopping power" is also a myth... as is "energy dump"... a terrible use of words... i don't want to dump the energy, i want to "use" it... effectively.) I do a bit of bullet/load design. There is so much too it that i don't know how to write up an explanation of the hows and whys of this specific subject without writing a book on it. There are just that many variables. A bullet/load to "stop inside" and still do the kind damage that needs to be done is really not likely to get the job done that needs to be done. It may work fine in the average situation, or the "typical situation", but, there are so many "specific situations" that that bullet is not necessarily going to work for the situation you or i need it to.

I've studied the hell out of this subject and discussed it at length with Rex Applegate and "experienced others heavy into the subject", and we all agree that bullets, arrows, and knives, that do not penetrate all the way through and cause massive blood pressure drop do not work as well as those that do. Bullets that are designed to "dump energy" may cause a significant amount of localized damage, but, they rely heavily on shot placement... and in most "personal defense" situations, "shot placement" while "golden" is still a huge luxury. And we that defend and protect the innocent are just going to have to get or become better lawyers. "Talons" got trashed by lawyers, but one of the great things about the design is that because of the "talons" they tend to get caught in the clothing on the way out and not continue on. So, we get two holes that are better than one, and a bullet that is likely to be caught before it goes too far.

As for my G29 and G20, i use the G20 mags and put a Grahams Engineering +4 mag extension on, then put one up the pipe for a total of 20. The Grahams has been modified to have all "corners and edges" rounded so that they don't nail the "funny bone" in my elbow or other wise hurt me or stick out. On my G29 i also use a A&G Grip Extender on a G20 mag. As far as concealability, i can easily conceal either gun in a bathing suit and t-shirt and have done so for about 20+ years... although it's probably best i don't say how here in a public forum. (Call me, i'll tell you.) But, over the years i've gotten frustrated with others holster designs shortcomings, so i designed and made one that works fantastic, and now am seriously considering putting them out on the market.

Here is my G29... sorry, i can't show the holster... yet...
The 10 Ring
__________________
Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGrip™Website
Manufacturer of AGrip™



When it gets to the point where psychotic power freaks disguised as religious leaders falsely claim Gods will and warp weak little minds in mass and send them on suicide missions to blow up, maim, mutilate, and kill, thousands of innocent men, women, and children, in an effort to take over the world; it is time to put aside diplomacy and wishful thinking and eliminate those threatening until the threat no longer exists.



**********************



Old Yesterday, 23:27 #8
Mas Ayoob
KoolAidAntidote

Mas Ayoob's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,016

Brooks, I'll certainly look forward to seeing the holster that hides that gun and that magazine in a bathing suit.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on over-penetration. It isn't just about "killing power" or the term you hate (in use before either of us were born), "stopping power." Defensive firearm employment is, in the bigger picture, about protecting the innocent from harm. A bullet designed to shoot completely through the only backstop the good guys are likely to have -- the body of the bad guy -- endangers innocent bystanders we'll be predictably unable to see.

Those bystanders are likely to be family members in an armed citizen/off duty cop situation, and brother officers in an on-duty shooting situation.

Wishing you a happy and safe Thanksgiving,
Mas


***********************


Old Today, 12:39 #9
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator

Tazz10m's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 5,696

"Killing power" and "hate", your words, not mine. And, yes, a bullet that is designed to shoot completely through might still have the potential to harm others after passing through... might... but that doesn't mean it was designed or intended to have that much potential to harm. Likewise, a bullet designed to not pass through might still have the potential to pass all the way through and harm innocents. It all depends on what that bullet encounters along the way. If the area hit on the body is thin enough, it will pass through and continue on. How much potential to harm is anybodies guess. And if it does, it falls into the category of "mistake" or "miss". We are human. We are going to make mistakes. We, as humans, need to learn how to allow for our "allowable mistakes"... and, of course, learn from them. If we don't, we will freeze when we need to move, and we will not stop or otherwise properly handle the real problems, and we will not learn... we will cease to grow... and we will fade away. Such is the nature of over-thinking. Sometimes a person just has to make due with what they've got. A good person always does the best they can. As a designer/inventor/manufacturer i try to come up with the "magic bullet". Others do to. I'm not saying it's impossible, i'm saying that as yet it doesn't exist.

Mas, once upon a time i was in a gun fight. I was very nicely asking a guy if he needed help. He shot at me. I made the decision to shoot back because i believed i HAD to, and i could. But the guy was in a car and using it for cover. I HAD to point shoot out the window of my car, over my shoulder backwards, and try to punch diagonally through the side of the guys car, through the back of his seat, and into him, to potentially stop him from his attacking me and the girl i was with. On the other side of his car were "innocents" that could not be seen. This was about a week after the LA Riots. I was "trained", had studied a BUNCH of the writing of a guy named "Mas Ayoob" (among others), and was quite good at point shooting, (although, i had never practiced shooting over my shoulder). My choice of weapon was a Glock 20 and the ammo was Winchester Silver Tip in 10mm. (WAY too much muzzle flash, i soon found out, btw.)

Now, what choice of weapon and ammo would you have chosen and why, and what would you have done? Bear in mind that it is around 1991, you are not a LEO, and the Los Angeles County laws said you are not allowed to carry a loaded weapon in your car... oh, and there have been wide spread full on riots going on with lots of people getting killed for over a week... and you just came out of the "hills" after a night hike, you just got into your car, and now you are pinned down and being fired upon. And, remember, you have to make your choice of weapon/ammo at least a month before having knowledge of the exact situation that you now find yourself in.

Happy Thanksgiving, bro!
__________________
Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGrip™Website
Manufacturer of AGrip™



When it gets to the point where psychotic power freaks disguised as religious leaders falsely claim Gods will and warp weak little minds in mass and send them on suicide missions to blow up, maim, mutilate, and kill, thousands of innocent men, women, and children, in an effort to take over the world; it is time to put aside diplomacy and wishful thinking and eliminate those threatening until the threat no longer exists.


******************


Old Today, 15:23 #10
Mas Ayoob
KoolAidAntidote

Mas Ayoob's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazz10m

""Killing power" and "hate", your words, not mine. And, yes, a bullet that is designed to shoot completely through might still have the potential to harm others after passing through... might... but that doesn't mean it was designed or intended to have that much potential to harm. Likewise, a bullet designed to not pass through might still have the potential to pass all the way through and harm innocents. It all depends on what that bullet encounters along the way. If the area hit on the body is thin enough, it will pass through and continue on. How much potential to harm is anybodies guess. And if it does, it falls into the category of "mistake" or "miss". We are human. We are going to make mistakes. We, as humans, need to learn how to allow for our "allowable mistakes"... and, of course, learn from them. If we don't, we will freeze when we need to move, and we will not stop or otherwise properly handle the real problems, and we will not learn... we will cease to grow... and we will fade away. Such is the nature of over-thinking. Sometimes a person just has to make due with what they've got. A good person always does the best they can. As a designer/inventor/manufacturer i try to come up with the "magic bullet". Others do to. I'm not saying it's impossible, i'm saying that as yet it doesn't exist.

Mas, once upon a time i was in a gun fight. I was very nicely asking a guy if he needed help. He shot at me. I made the decision to shoot back because i believed i HAD to, and i could. But the guy was in a car and using it for cover. I HAD to point shoot out the window of my car, over my shoulder backwards, and try to punch diagonally through the side of the guys car, through the back of his seat, and into him, to potentially stop him from his attacking me and the girl i was with. On the other side of his car were "innocents" that could not be seen. This was about a week after the LA Riots. I was "trained", had studied a BUNCH of the writing of a guy named "Mas Ayoob" (among others), and was quite good at point shooting, (although, i had never practiced shooting over my shoulder). My choice of weapon was a Glock 20 and the ammo was Winchester Silver Tip in 10mm. (WAY too much muzzle flash, i soon found out, btw.)

Now, what choice of weapon and ammo would you have chosen and why, and what would you have done? Bear in mind that it is around 1991, you are not a LEO, and the Los Angeles County laws said you are not allowed to carry a loaded weapon in your car... oh, and there have been wide spread full on riots going on with lots of people getting killed for over a week... and you just came out of the "hills" after a night hike, you just got into your car, and now you are pinned down and being fired upon. And, remember, you have to make your choice of weapon/ammo at least a month before having knowledge of the exact situation that you now find yourself in.

Happy Thanksgiving, bro!"


You covered a good bit of waterfront there, Brooks. Responding more or less in order to your points:

Certainly any bullet, if it was just a peripheral hit or if it passed through lung and intercostal spaces on an anorexic junkie, could exit. However, no responsible manufacturer lists "shooting all the way through the bad" guy as a design parameter, since for reasons I've already described, that would be irresponsible.

However, it's obvious that since over-penetration is a well-known side effect of using certain ammunition, it could certainly be construed that use of that ammunition constituted deliberate indifference.

Since you yourself admit that the opponent could be a flyweight or a heavyweight, it seems impossible to design a bullet/load that will "always" exit, but without power to cause the corollary death of a bystander. Using a load that meets FBI/general modern law enforcement standards seems to show good care and due diligence.

Good luck with that "magic bullet" you've been looking for. Don't feel bad; none of the rest of us have found it either.

I don't address hypotheticals like the one you bring up, here, partly because they tend to infinite "what ifs" and partly because, frankly, my work keeps me busy enough analyzing real gunfights. However, since auto body/window glass penetration is one of the parameters of the FBI protocols, I remain comfortable carrying defensive ammunition which fits that profile.

Brooks, you may recall when our host Eric opened the GATE section, clearly outlining its purpose and parameters in its opening post, here: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1189556
You know that the GATE section is geared to giving the original poster a quick answer, since the whole rest of Glock Talk is open to multiple-poster debate. You posted "good idea" when Eric explained that in the post linked immediately above. (Post #29 on 9-13-10.)

You and I have violated that rule with the above dialogue, so I'm going to close the thread here. We've both explained our positions and disagreements, and it's starting to go 'round and 'round, the exact sort of thing GATE was intended to prevent. However, if you feel it needs more discussion than it has already had here and elsewhere in Glock Talk over the years, you're more than welcome to open a new thread in Carry Issues or Caliber Corner. PM me when and if you do, and I'll be happy to participate.

Cordially,
Mas
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!

Last edited by Tazz10m; 11-22-2012 at 21:12..
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 22:49   #109
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,170
Quote:
Originally posted by Mas Ayoob

"You covered a good bit of waterfront there, Brooks. Responding more or less in order to your points:

Certainly any bullet, if it was just a peripheral hit or if it passed through lung and intercostal spaces on an anorexic junkie, could exit. However, no responsible manufacturer lists "shooting all the way through the bad" guy as a design parameter, since for reasons I've already described, that would be irresponsible.

However, it's obvious that since over-penetration is a well-known side effect of using certain ammunition, it could certainly be construed that use of that ammunition constituted deliberate indifference.

Since you yourself admit that the opponent could be a flyweight or a heavyweight, it seems impossible to design a bullet/load that will "always" exit, but without power to cause the corollary death of a bystander. Using a load that meets FBI/general modern law enforcement standards seems to show good care and due diligence.

Good luck with that "magic bullet" you've been looking for. Don't feel bad; none of the rest of us have found it either.

I don't address hypotheticals like the one you bring up, here, partly because they tend to infinite "what ifs" and partly because, frankly, my work keeps me busy enough analyzing real gunfights. However, since auto body/window glass penetration is one of the parameters of the FBI protocols, I remain comfortable carrying defensive ammunition which fits that profile.

Brooks, you may recall when our host Eric opened the GATE section, clearly outlining its purpose and parameters in its opening post, here: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1189556
You know that the GATE section is geared to giving the original poster a quick answer, since the whole rest of Glock Talk is open to multiple-poster debate. You posted "good idea" when Eric explained that in the post linked immediately above. (Post #29 on 9-13-10.)

You and I have violated that rule with the above dialogue, so I'm going to close the thread here. We've both explained our positions and disagreements, and it's starting to go 'round and 'round, the exact sort of thing GATE was intended to prevent. However, if you feel it needs more discussion than it has already had here and elsewhere in Glock Talk over the years, you're more than welcome to open a new thread in Carry Issues or Caliber Corner. PM me when and if you do, and I'll be happy to participate.

Cordially,
Mas"



Sorry, Mas, my mistake on the rules. And sorry if i wasn't clear enough in my writing and gave you the wrong impression of what i was trying to say. I'm not trying to go round and round with your or otherwise be a pain in the rear. I'm trying to discuss this so that we all learn something and advance the science and make a better world. And i thank you for your wisdom in this discussion as it is an honor to discuss it with you. It was a great honor to meet you, shake your hand, and have a good laugh. It was also an honor to have you shoot a 3/4" group with that Kahr PM40 with my "AGrip" on it. I figure i should tell you that now while i have the chance. My point is that i respect you and i respect your opinion and i want you to know that. There are several gun writers and gun mag editors i have very little if any respect for... and some of them know who they are. You might have noticed, i don't advertise in any gun magazines anymore and i don't go out of my way to smooze the writers to write about my products. That said...

I agree with your statement:

"...no responsible manufacturer lists "shooting all the way through the bad" guy as a design parameter, since for reasons I've already described, that would be irresponsible.

However, it's obvious that since over-penetration is a well-known side effect of using certain ammunition, it could certainly be construed that use of that ammunition constituted deliberate indifference."

I guess i should have better clarified that i do not and was not trying to advocate the intentional use of a bullet/load that will "always" exit.

What i do advocate is a bullet/load design that "gets the job done in a properly effective way". That doesn't mean the bullet always has to penetrate all the way through every time, etc. Form follows function, and always pick the right tool for the job. I understand that there are now bullet/loads that are designed to not over penetrate bad guys, but that also are able to potentially penetrate a car door or car window and still be effective on a bad guy and not overpenetrate the bad guy. I think that's great. It's a great accomplishment.

Those bullets/loads were designed for what they were designed for, BUT, my big point is that while those bullet/loads may be ideal for a wide range of law enforcement or "typical" personal defense use, it doesn't mean those bullets/loads are ideal for the personal defense use of people like myself who are out in the woods a LOT and so have to deal with possible defense against attacks by wild animals like black bear, 150 lb wolves, cougar, etc., as well as attacks by people who might be spun up on meth, etc., and in areas that have a LOT of homes and people around.

My point is that a bullet/load that is designed specifically to stay in the body of an attacker every time is not likely to also work well on the bear or wolf and so is not likely to be a persons best choice for a regular carry load.

My opinion, is that the load should be powerful enough to expand, cut, and penetrate far enough in a black bear and still have the weight, energy, and what i call "umph" to knock the crap out of the spine and drop that animal. And a load like that is likely to have the potential penetrate all the way through a human front to back if it misses all the bone. And if it does miss all the bone and also the vitals for "stopping", it really helps if the bullet exits and helps facilitate massive drop in blood pressure. If that bullet can be "caught" in the bad guys clothes on the way out, awesome... and, as i said before, the "talons" on a "Black Talon" type bullet help facilitate that. And, like i also said, it is more then likely that after exiting, that bullet/load is not likely to have enough potential to really hurt any "innocent" it might it. And, sometimes, a situation might call for a person to have to take a chance on injury of an innocent in order to take out an attacker bent on killing a bunch of people in a theater, shopping mall, school, etc.

No, it would not be the best choice for use in an airliner, but, it maybe the ideal choice for use in the situations i and others encounter on a regular everyday basis. "Deliberate indifference" has nothing to do with it. "The reality of what it actually takes to save the children" does. And the issue of deliberate indifference really shouldn't even come up unless a bullet that passed all the way through an attacker and still hurt or killed an innocent person. If i am the one that fires the bullet, i am the one that has to answer for what it does... and i am willing to do that... i am willing to take that responsibility... just like if i missed an attacker and hit a innocent directly. And if i get accused of deliberate indifference because of the way i acted, that is what i will have to face. But i would like to think i would have someone like YOU, Mas, in my corner to help defend me as there are so few people in the world that actually understand this stuff.

As for shooting situation that you called a "hypothetical"; that was not a hypothetical, it was a real gun fight that really happened, and i was in it, and i won it. And i was basically asking you to analyze it based on what we are talking about here because it fit in exactly with what we are talking about. I would not give you a hypothetical to respond to. I think hypotheticals are stupid except for imagination purposes, etc.

Thanks again, Mas, hope you had a great Thanksgiving.
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2012, 08:57   #110
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,800


Tazz, I don't see the point in all this. There are two philosophies out there, the "penetration" guys and the "energy dump" guys. I've been around long enough to know that we will never get both sides to agree.

I think you are asking for a bullet that will do the job of penetrating / killing a large animal, like a bear, with a bullet that will "stop" a human attacker. We don't have bullets that will do both satisfactorily 100% of the time. Such is my dilemma, for when I carry my G20 in "bear country" when I am hunting predators at night, I would like to have a bullet capable of penetration, hopefully through bone. Then, when I stop for a snack on my way home at the all night mini-mart/gas station (stop & rob), I would want that same bullet to not overpenetrate on a human torso in the event the store is robbed late at night and there are innocents in the store. I understand what you are asking for completely, but I think the best bullet would be a "jack of all trades and master of none." I can load heavy for hunting and light for SD, but unfortunately I can't load for both.

I like the idea that there are now bullets that will penetrate vehicle windshields and still expand nicely in human tissue.

I apologize for "butting in." I know your post was intended for Mas, but I feel partly responsible because this was brought up in my thread regarding your 200 grain Talon loads.

Take care and have a good day.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2012, 15:24   #111
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
Tazz, I don't see the point in all this. There are two philosophies out there, the "penetration" guys and the "energy dump" guys. I've been around long enough to know that we will never get both sides to agree.

I think you are asking for a bullet that will do the job of penetrating / killing a large animal, like a bear, with a bullet that will "stop" a human attacker. We don't have bullets that will do both satisfactorily 100% of the time. Such is my dilemma, for when I carry my G20 in "bear country" when I am hunting predators at night, I would like to have a bullet capable of penetration, hopefully through bone. Then, when I stop for a snack on my way home at the all night mini-mart/gas station (stop & rob), I would want that same bullet to not overpenetrate on a human torso in the event the store is robbed late at night and there are innocents in the store. I understand what you are asking for completely, but I think the best bullet would be a "jack of all trades and master of none." I can load heavy for hunting and light for SD, but unfortunately I can't load for both.

I like the idea that there are now bullets that will penetrate vehicle windshields and still expand nicely in human tissue.

I apologize for "butting in." I know your post was intended for Mas, but I feel partly responsible because this was brought up in my thread regarding your 200 grain Talon loads.

Take care and have a good day.

4949shooter, you are not "butting in" at all. I welcome your input... and, hey, it's good. You "get it".

I keep repeating the same principles over and over not just to teach them, but, to use them to help bring us back and keep us all focused on "reality". Reality ALWAYS takes precedence. Some conversations about topics/issues are going to go back and forth and back and forth and NEED to in order to boil them down to a tangible, useful, product. It doesn't matter if it is "policy" or a product that is going to be manufactured and put on the market. Some are "no-brainers", and some are a pain in the backside, but, none-the-less, NEED to be put out because of societal demand. In business it's called "customer demand". It's the same process that helped create this great country and the Constitution and Bill of Rights... and our laws... and how they are enforced... and the physical products we use to help enforce them, and how those products are considered and used.... which, brings us to where we are now. The principles are well established in reality and they apply across the board. "Values" are also important, but, are much more subjective. And those that truly understand them actually don't argue about them. It's pretty amazing, i think.

I don't think it's impossible to boil this subject of bullet/load design. I think it's quit possible. And i think it not only should be done, but needs to be done. Mas is one of the foremost experts on this subject and, reality being what it is, we don't know how much longer we are going to have Mas around to help us with this. Right, Mas?

Rex Applegate is gone. But much of his knowledge lives on... in the form of the contents of his books and videos, and that which people like me who are still alive have in our memories what we gained from our extensive discussion on this topic with him. He has had such an influence on me and the design of my products that i feel like i should put his signature on many of them... but, of course, i don't... for a bunch of reasons. But that's another topic.

On the topic of bullet/load, we don't have to "get both sides to agree". What we do have is a fiduciary responsibility to be as correct as possible. And if we don't make every effort to be as correct as possible, guess what? We can be accused of that dreaded "deliberate indifference".

We also have a fiduciary responsibility to come home to our families and provide for them. If don't, who will... the government? Lawyers? Politicians? Megalomaniacs?

I almost died about a year ago. We are talking about as close as it gets. I've almost died several times. When it happens your life does "flash before you" in one form or another. And after, you really start thinking about life. It's pretty amazing to say the least. One thing that really got to me was that i realized that there was so much that i actually know about that i keep my mouth shut about that i should actually speak about before i'm gone. One of the main reasons i kept my mouth shut about them was because they were "uncomfortable" for most people to deal with.

Now, after almost dying...again, my attitude is a bit different. I'm going to speak out. I'm going to tell it like it is. And if people don't like it, toooo bad. Those that should tough it out, do their homework, take a stand, and speak out, but don't, and instead wuss out, shrink back, and shut up; deserve Darwin Awards.

I have a friend right now, who is sitting paralyzed in a wheelchair, crapping in a colostomy bag, stuck, because, for whatever reason, he chose to try to "talk" to a guy in the Tacoma Mall who was shooting people up with an AK, instead of taking cover and shooting him like he could have, and should have. I also had at least 3 other family members in that mall at that exact time, and some other friends... aside from my friends who are cops that responded to the shooting. Why did my friend try to talk to the guy first? Because his head was full of a bunch of crap. He was trying to be "too careful"... he should have been "more careful", did the best he could to avoid innocents, and just shot the guy and dropped him.

How does that saying go; I'd rather be convicted by 12, than carried by 6? Yup. Maybe we should add; "...or stuck in a wheel chair crapping in a bag."

If you are dead, you can not take care of your wife and kids... and you can't pass on to the living what you learned from making mistakes and dying.

A bullet that is designed with "talons" or "claws" tends to lose pretty much all of its velocity after it passes through the last layer of skin/hide.

Bullets that "cut" tend to do better at stopping an attacker than bullets that merely mushroom/expand and "push/smash/mash".

Velocity is generally needed to make a bullet expand and perform as needed.

So, the real question is: What is the velocity and damage potential of a given bullet/load that has exited? And; What actual injuries from exited bullets/loads are there and what are those bullets/loads?

It's the process of elimination. (Sorry, no pun intended.) And it's the reason we don't use FMJ's, Ball Rounds, etc., despite the fact our military does. It's also the reason we keep coming up with new calibers like 10mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, 5.7 x 28, etc. It's also the reason i'm involved with the deveopment of a laser gun that works like a Tazer but can drop someone from about 400 yards away and doesn't have the wires. The power setting is also adjustable. How cool is that? Set your Phasers to "stun".
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2012, 15:48   #112
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,800


Tazz I am sorry for your friend, and I am sorry for whatever health issues you have or had. I hope and pray that you are well.

I agree we need penetration and expansion. I would love to have a "do all" bullet that will serve me in the woods and on the streets.

Is overpenetration a concern? I think it is, at least here in NJ, the most crowded state in the country. For a rural state trooper or sheriff's officer, overpenetration may not be as much of an issue. This would depend on location and circumstances as well. I fully agree, with someone shooting up a mall or a theatre, we have to take decisive action, doing the best we can under the lousy circumstances of having innocents, and possibly our own family members present.

Let me ask, how would you load coming home from the woods hunting predators, with the possibility of engaging an armed felon on the way home? The Silvertip is one answer, though it may not do both jobs satisfactorily (may be too soft for large animal defense).

As far as having a fiduciary responsibility to the shooting public and even law enforcement, I understand where you are coming from.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2012, 18:09   #113
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,170
Thanks 4949shooter, i appreciate it.

I didn't almost die from a health problem. I was spearfishing and getting back into it after a few years and testing out some new equipment in the process and found out the hard way that although ones old wetsuit hood was in good condition and felt nice and fine and comfortable, it was actually a bit too tight and cut off the blood/oxygen flow to my brain............ found myself hyperventilating and didn't know why, and, couldn't stop no matter how hard i tried. Lucky/Blessed for me i learned long ago how to listen to that still small voice in my head (that was eventually yelling at me! hahaha) and i managed to get that stupid hood off my head before it was too late...(really, really, REALLY, close to "gone"). I could literally feel the "shape of my brain" for about a week after... and my thinking wasn't all that sharp and clear for about a month after... but, everything seems to be just fine now... all systems are "go".

As for the bullets and overpenetration, overpenetration is always a concern, in my book, just as is missing. What might amount to a "little bonk" to an adult could conceivably be a "huge bonk" and harm a little baby. One thing i've learned from doing ballistics testing is that "bullets can do really weird an unpredictable things". Never underestimate them. Always be concerned.

I live out in the woods... THICK woods... rain forest. A bear or cougar, coyote, feral dog, or meth crazed idiot or otherwise warped minded idiot could jump out of the woods at any time. I'm also pretty sure there are a lot of Muslims that would LOVE to kill me. Hey, what can i say? I do what i want, go where i want, say what i want, and deal with whatever. I truly live free... thanks to God and America.

If i am specifically going into the woods and it's not just a spur of the moment thing, i go get either my G20 and load it with at least 180gr JSP kick'n out at 1350fps, or, i grab my shotgun with buckshot and slugs... oh, and what amounts to a short sword. I always have some sort of very quickly accessible and "capable" small bladed knife on me. Out in these woods, they are so thick, that an attack by a bear or whatever could initiate instantly from "in your face close". And i most often go out alone. Often, i literally have to crawl on hands and knees. And since i go where humans rarely ever go, if something happens to me like a broken leg or "skewering" from falling on a broken branch sticking up from a fallen tree or something, or getting killed in a bear attack/confrontation, i don't ever count on anyone ever finding me. It just doesn't enter into the equation. If i suddenly disappear... don't feel bad for me, have a beer, or better yet, have a party.

As for vermin, we have a serious problem on Fox Island with coyotes threatening and even attacking or trying to attack people. Pets, they are getting shredded and eaten. I have several options ready to go at a moments notice for those. Everything from the requisite Ruger 10/22 starting with Stingers, etc., up thru long guns with various loads of .223, 12 ga., and 30.06. We "Fox Islanders" (we have no local "government") got together and contracted with the USDA to have their "coyote guys" (my term) to come out and deal with them. Two guys... and i've talked to them... they are "really good". They are using (among other things) suppressed .243's. One of the guys told me that he called in one neighborhood area and a pack leader came directly in and seriously challenged him... silly guy forgot to bring a gun...hahaha... away, he luckily had found in advance and picked up a baseball bat left behind by some kid, and used it to fight off the coyote. He told me that that coyote was the most aggressive coyote he had ever encountered... and he estimates he's killed thousands of them. He knows his coyotes.

My "everyday general purpose carry combo" for "whatever" is my G29 with 20 rounds of Black Talons. Basically, it's what i call a "pocket carbine" with enough ammo in one magazine to deal fairly well with pretty much any situation including a small mob or gang... which, i have had to deal with in the past on more than one occasion. Hey, i used to live in the Los Angeles area...hahaha... gangs EVERYWHERE, along with the occasional dangerous wild animals... cougar, bear, coyotes, total psycho's.

If i am driving home from an elk or bear hunt where we now have packs of freaking 150+lb Gray Wolves, i carry my G20 with max power 180gr or heavier JSP's, while still out in the boonies and could break down, then, when i get into the populated areas i switch to my G29 with the Black Talons as i am much more likely to have to deal with a felon or other psycho than a bear or wolf.

For practice; during the LA Riots i learned to use inexpensive JHP's that are 170-200 grain. That way, when i am done practicing, whatever ammo i have left over goes into the "cheap bullets for cheap people" category. If there is one thing i learned from being in those riots, i don't care how much ammo you think you have, or how powerful it is, you don't have enough. Your thinking will instantly change. You will go for the most "capable" long gun you have. Your long gun will become your handgun. Your handgun will instantly become the equivalent of a pocket knife and you will barely think about it, but you will be glad you have it for backup. Your pocket knife will be almost forgotten. If you don't have one, you will DREAM of having a folding or at least collapsible stock on your long gun. You will take it EVERYWHERE you go. You will LOVE it. It will be your best friend.

You will also want to have at least one great human friend who is WELL trained in combat... and has his own guns with him... and if he doesn't you will provide him with whatever you can... and you will want him to sit "shotgun" with you as you drive around or whatever, and you will want him to know your guns well, and you his guns well.

You will each want, if you don't already have, at least 3 guns each, all the time with you, rifle, shotgun, pistol. All high capacity, all with flashlights... and a crap load (cases) of ammo for each... at least. You will either have these things or you won't. If you don't have them, you will dream about them, because you are not likely to get them any time soon as all the gun shops will quickly sell out and have bare shelves... except maybe for 10mm... and if you are a big 10mm fan you will smile... and clean off that shelf and take it all regardless of brand, load, or price. Others around you in that shop will be sad faced and feel down... because their 9, .40, and .45 and other "common caliber" guns are sadly lacking in having the ammo that they now realize they should have stocked up on long ago. During the LA Riots I was surprised there was still some 12 ga buck and slug ammo, and also some 30.06 ammo left... i bought it all... thinking "too bad" for those that came after me looking for it.

During the LA Riots, the police were the first thing to "go". They were pulled back and sent to staging areas to figure out what to do and gear up. EVERYONE was on their own. EVERYONE divided into one of two groups... "instigators and looters of opportunity" and the other group; "those trying to protect themselves and family and get out of Dodge". Police included. Many got frustrated with waiting around a staging area and left to go home and take care of their wives an kids first and get them away to a safe area. Then those LEO's came back to face the criminals.

Instead of trying to protect a property that you will likely be burnt out of, better to do a tactical retreat to a place you can defend and hold out there. And don't forget to take your photo albums and important papers, etc. as suddenly they will be the only "valuables" you have except your guns and ammo. People will want to buy guns and ammo from you... and you will laugh at them.

Now, what kind of weapon/gun/ammo do you want to carry? 2nd what? Oh yeah, 2nd Amendment.
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2012, 18:11   #114
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,170
Ooo... long post... hahaha... sorry....
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 02:05   #115
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,800


i'm glad you are doing better, Tazz. What unfortunately happened to you sounds life threatening to say the least.

So you are a two load guy also...one load for the woods and one load for the streets. What I have been doing is carrying a G27 as a backup for the ride home. I am a "three gun" guy when I go hunting for preds.

One day I wouldn't mind hearing more about your shooting, and how those Silvertips performed. I'm sure the 10 ring guys would be interested as well.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 15:21   #116
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,392
Quote:
Originally Posted by G26man View Post
I disagree. The FBI as well as their pet research house Firearms Tactical (Fackler, etc.) have an agenda IMO to promote larger diameter heavier bullets as an excuse for their poor performance with their 9mm service guns re. the Miami shootout. I don't know about you but I am not 12" thick,.
Contradicting yourself there. The whole FBI Miami fiasco was about underpenetration.

People don't always get shot from 100% frontally.
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 19:47   #117
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,170
49, the only reason i'm alive is because i fought to live... and i had to fight HARD. If i would have panicked like i ALMOST did, and God knows i "wanted" to... hahaha... i would have been dead for sure. I "looked over the edge" between keeping under control and panic, and it was death... so i backed away quick. And much as i'm not really at all afraid of dying, i realized how much i really wanted to live. Life in this world is actually pretty good... bad as it can be.

Silvertips, i'm not real impressed with. And the old ones had WAY too much flash for night shooting. BEAUTIFUL actually, but very distracting and a bit blinding. Flame was about 3+ feet long and 2+ feet wide... and WHITE... with lots of pretty colors tinged in. Very little "orange" like that from what the gang punk shot at me. He must have been using something like a .25 Raven... and the flame from his gun was really cool looking... it was a round rolling ball of orange fire about 10 inches across... sounded like a firecracker. And although i was literally expecting him to take a shot at me even though i couldn't see a gun, somehow i knew he would. BUT, even though i "knew" he would, i was still clueless when he finally did and i heard it and saw the rolling ball of flame. I silently asked myself; "What the hell was that... a firecracker???" And the "little voice in my head" (which you will learn to listen to if your are smart, hahaha...) said very calmly and matter of factly, and kinda like a woman's voice; "Noo... he just shot at you." And i said silently to myself; "Oh... ok... well, i know what to do..." BAWOOOM!!!! LOUD!!! Lit up the entire neighborhood like lightning. Winchester should have named those "Lightning Rounds"... hahaha...

Anyway, i HIGHLY recommend you practice point shooting over your shoulder backwards out the window of your car... along with every other kind of point shooting you can come up with. Also shooting with a buddy at the same time. Just be sure to only practice with super competent people...hahaha.... it's dangerous as hell.
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 19:51   #118
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
Contradicting yourself there. The whole FBI Miami fiasco was about underpenetration.

People don't always get shot from 100% frontally.
Yup, you got it. And the FBI actually settled on the 10mm as the ideal round... and then "whiny little people" got them to water it down to .40 S&W. The bigger slower bullets they like are really for subsonic work with suppressors. If you are shooting and you need quiet, the bigger heavier .45 has the advantage over a subsonic 10mm except in capacity.
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 05:18   #119
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,800


Thanks Tazz.

I am curious as to the Silvertip, and the other 10mm loads we talk about, and how they perform on the human target. Evan Marshall lists a few in his last book, but there really isn't a lot of data to go on since the FBI and the other law enforcement agencies dropped the 10mm in favor of the .40 S&W. Now there aren't any LE agencies that carry the ten, and we don't have many shootings from the few of us who are enthusiastic enough to carry this awesome round. We are stuck in a position where we don't really know what these loads are capable of in real world gun fights, and we have some newer loads to choose from like the Hornady, the "downloaded" Silvertip, the boutique ammo, etc. Even the Corbon 150 grain has only logged 10 shootings. And you are correct about the Silvertip, with 64 shootings did not reach into the 90th percentile, nor did the other 180 grain loads. But these were older loads anyway, and we unfortunately don't have any more real world data to go on for 10mm anymore. Just how will these newer loads in 10mm perform?

I think the best we can do now is take what we know from the .40 cal shootings and apply it to our own needs in the 10mm. For example, the 165 grain and 155 grain .40's seem to be doing the best. Also, the Texas DPS troopers really like their .357 Sig 125 grain loads at ~1450. We can easily duplicate and exceed these loads in a 10mm. The problem is finding the "sweet spot." There has to be a point of diminishing returns with the 10mm loads. When do we exit the realm of a good "human stopper" and get into the realm of "large animal stopper," if there is such a thing with a handgun. I think the Silvertip was loaded beyond what is necessary for most human targets. At what weight / velocity does the 10mm stop dumping its energy and start over penetrating? And by "overpenetrating" I don't necessarily mean perforating the target and hitting an innocent bystander (which is still a concern), but I mean not allowing the bullet to expend its energy in a human torso.

These issues have been on my mind, and I would like to get some answers but unfortunately as the situation stands we won't be getting much data on 10mm shootings.

Sorry for the ramble.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 19:30   #120
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,170
I think we already have plenty of data to know what works and what doesn't. I just think that a lot of the "experts" really aren't thinking like they should.

The bullet that has the most potential to cause the most damage by breaking through bones, cutting soft tissue, and damaging "movement related vitals" stops the attacker the quickest wins. The faster and heavier a bullet can be driven, the more that can be done with the energy driving that bullet, like, for instance, bullet expansion. The faster a bullet can be driven, the more energy there is to do the actual expanding. But, and expanded bullet is like a parachute... the expansion slows it down. But, if the expansion can be "blades" instead of just a ball shaped mushroom, the energy is going to be used to cut with instead of just push "meat and bone" out of the way or otherwise crush or smash it. A very fast heavy bullet can be designed to not penetrate very far at all... if it is designed to open quickly and open large. And a bullet like that is not as likely to have much damaging potential after it exits. Plus, whatever it hits is going to get hit with a large flat area and with the energy expended, not likely to cause much damage afterward. This is why for a 10mm to be a good bear stopper, it needs to not expand so much so whatever velocity one can get it going out of a handgun with needs to go towards penetrating far enough to get to the vitals. Same goes with a dangerous game rifle and taking a rhino. It's the breaking of the bones and the fragments along with the big long hole that get the job done... in other words, again, the damage to the vitals.

And so, since the Silver tips really don't have any cutting edges and really just amount to a big ball shape being pushed through, they need the velocity and long wound channel. And frankly, there are much better bullets out there now that provide cutting, like Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, and of course "Talons" or whatever Winchester wants to call them to be PC. The trick, though, is holding those sharp petals on to do the cutting, and keeping the fragmenting to a minimum to maintain weight.

If a bullet is just designed to go 12 inches and cut the whole way, then what is going to happen if a BIG guy is encountered that is turned sideways and he has BIG bicepts and other muscles flexed tight? At 12 inches one is lucky to even reach the heart. You got clothes, possibly a leather jacket, hide, all that muscle, fat, the heavy bone, then more muscle and fat, then hide, clothes, leather, clothes, hide, fat, muscle, bone, then muscle, lungs, then the heart. That's a lot to get thru, and when the bullet finally gets there, it's big and flat, so it might just push gently against the heart, and the bad guy is still easily able to blow you away or cut you to shreads.

I want a bullet that is going to punch through, expand, cut that crap out of anything along the way, then knock the CRAP out of the spine and stop the ability of the guy to continue functioning and drop him so he can't attack any longer. A heavy 180+ grain talon or saber type bullet that has a jacket (read; talons/sabers) that is not going to separate from the core is going to do the best at that. And if it does exit, it is probably only going to have enough remaining ooomph to get caught in the clothing. Jacketed lead, solid copper, hey, whatever works. A "Silvertip"? Meh. It has limited potential even if it does exit.

This is why a broadhead works, and a target arrow doesn't. I want talons and sabers! And the velocity and weight to push them. And the whole expanded thing works like a parachute to stop it after the job is done. Simple.
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 21:09   #121
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,800


I agree with you. We need a combination of energy AND penetration. One or the other generally won't be enough.

I also agree that for large animals (bear) we need a deep penetrating hollowpoint. That is why I carry XTP's in the woods as a backup to my SG or rifle. I really have gotten to like the Black Talons though. The expansion characteristics in the video I posted are superb. Yes, I know it wasn't flesh, but the expansion this bullet gives in water is a good example of what it may be capable of. If I get to the gun show this weekend I will keep my eye out for some. I wish Winchester still produced the 10mm Ranger round. That would be nice. Perhaps a call or email to Winchester is in order. It sure can't hurt, especially if we can convince them the 10mm is back on the rise and there will be a demand for factory ammo.

I will disagree on one point you made. The data for 10mm shootings is lacking. I personally would like to see more data, with the different loadings / bullets / power levels. More data can only benefit the 10mm and shooting community in general.

Thanks for the dialogue.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 21:33   #122
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,170
Bunch of data right here in The 10 Ring.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1373461

Deer are very similar to humans as per bullet/load performance. Although i'd also like to see more data specific to 10mm on humans, but, the data from .40 is virtually exactly the same, but with light loads.
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 20:23   #123
Bongo Boy
Senior Member
 
Bongo Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by glockophile View Post
This thread is ridiculous.
Ah...thankfully someone finally said it.

I'll stick to worrying about whether I see him first and even get the chance to respond at all, even if with a dinner plate or my car keys. That should cover about 99.99999% of my personal defense issues.

I'm 100% confident that whether I'm packing 230gr FMJs or 185 gr Gold Dots, my chances of survival have little to do with whether I'm even carrying or not. Did I hear the guy with the 2x4 come up behind me in time to get myself out of the way? Nope. But I'm packin' my 10mm loaded for bear, just the same.

Last edited by Bongo Boy; 10-10-2013 at 20:33..
Bongo Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 20:52   #124
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,170
This thread only seems ridiculous if you don't understand it.

Shower us with your wisdom, Bongo Boy.
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2013, 06:55   #125
tyr0981
Member
 
tyr0981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo Boy View Post
I'll stick to worrying about whether I see him first and even get the chance to respond at all, even if with a dinner plate or my car keys. That should cover about 99.99999% of my personal defense issues.

I'm 100% confident that whether I'm packing 230gr FMJs or 185 gr Gold Dots, my chances of survival have little to do with whether I'm even carrying or not. Did I hear the guy with the 2x4 come up behind me in time to get myself out of the way? Nope. But I'm packin' my 10mm loaded for bear, just the same.
lots of wisdom in these 2 paragraphs... situational awareness can negate the 'over-penetration' "problem".
tyr0981 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 00:44.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 848
218 Members
630 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42