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Old 01-25-2012, 17:24   #21
Aceman
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There is the physics, and then there is effect on a nervous system. I'll say bigger is generally better...generally.

And so is faster. Generally.

But big and fast is definitely best.

Last edited by Aceman; 01-25-2012 at 17:37..
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Old 01-25-2012, 17:30   #22
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http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Everything you need to know, in order of importance:

1) Shot placement & penetration

2) Permanent cavity

3) Temporary cavity

4) Fragmentation (not applicable to these handgun calibers)

#1 is 99% of what's important. The rest is gravy.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 01-25-2012 at 17:39..
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Old 01-25-2012, 17:31   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceman View Post
There is the physics, and then there is effect on a nervous system. I'll say bigger is generally better...generally.
Yup, but bigger means fewer rounds.
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Old 01-25-2012, 17:33   #24
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All you have to do is look at why someone was stopped with a 22lr. Usually it is because the bullet destroyed something very vital, like the heart or aorta etc.....

Now use a round that consistently penetrates enough to reach that vital even if it has to go throw an arm or some other soft barrier.

Then you have to actually shoot that bullet so it hits the vital part.

Look at hard barrier performance if you are LE.

In the end 9/.40/.357sig/.45 all have what it takes to reach that vital through a soft barrier if you place your shot.

If you shoot someones heart with a 9mm or a .45 it isn't going to make any difference so I will take an added advantage and have more capacity.

Hard barrier performance is a different story.

Last edited by High Altitude; 01-25-2012 at 17:34..
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Old 01-25-2012, 17:59   #25
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Originally Posted by iluv2viddyfilms View Post
These are probably three of the most common automatic calibers to carry and I know this isn't the first time someone has asked to compare them. However I was curious as to the foot pound or jules produced by each caliber in the common factory loadings. I have a firearm in each of these calibers.

I went to wikipedia... and I'll accept it as a reliable source, at least for an online question and found the following:

9 mm 115 grain FMJ = 570 J and 420 foot pounds pressure.
.40 S&W 180 grain FMJ = 598 J and 444 foot pounds.
.45 ACP 230 grain FMJ = 561 J and 414 foot pounds.

So there really isn't much difference at all in energy expelled from the rounds. I know there's the old saying that speed kills which is why a relatively narrow .30 rifle round can do so much damage with the supersonic speed it produces - three or four times the amount a handgun round.

At these lower speeds does the size of the wound channel make the big difference in going with the .45 acp over the 9mm? I ask because if energy is what matters then you would think the 9mm would be a more effective round because it gives off slightly more kinetic energy.

I don't know much about ballistics but can anyone explain this or share their thoughts?
First, I'd like to point out that the numbers you are using are very skewed. The 9mm loading you list is 115 gr @ 1300. That is a VERY atypical 9mm loading. That's +P+ verging and close to .357 sig performance. If you want to go that route, there are +P+ versions of the .45 ACP called the .45 Super and .460 Rowland that get close to 44 Magnum energy.

Also, Wikipedia lists other 45 ACP loads that you didn't include such as the 185@1225 for 616 ft/lbs.

You were trying to match high-end 9mm performance with low-end .45 performance.

Anyways, real-world shootings say that there is not much difference between the major service calibers. I've always been a 9mm guy my entire life, and part of me still is. However, when I bought my first .45 about 6 months back the difference was apparent. The .45 slug did more damage to my target holders, hit steel targets with more authority, knocked bowling pins down easier, and cut larger holes in stuff.
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Old 01-25-2012, 19:57   #26
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9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 - caliber
Win Ranger +P+ - the name of the load
115@1320 - bullet mass in grains @ muzzle velocity
21.7 mv - bullet momentum in lb*fps
444 E - muzzle energy in ftlbs
BR - what follows is the data for bare gelatin
9.6" inches of penetration
0.53", final expanded diameter of bullet
2.11 cu, approximation of wound volume. (this does not take into account the expansion profile as a function of depth, but it should be roughly proportionate to actual wound volume)
CL - what follows is the data for clothed gelatin
same fields as the bare gelatin, as defined above
avg 2.74 - Average wound volume, clothed and bare gelatin
3.89 re - Free Recoil Energy, assuming a 1.88 lb pistol
0.70 - Average would volume per unit Free Recoil Energy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@ 864, 18.1 mv, 243 E|BR 13.8", 0.61", 4.03cu|CL 15.2", 0.59", 4.17cu|avg 4.10, 2.72 re, 1.51
9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@1017, 21.4 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.70cu|CL 15.5", 0.65", 5.14cu|avg 4.92, 3.77 re, 1.31
9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 3-D |115@1178, 19.4 mv, 354 E|BR 11.6", 0.54", 2.66cu|CL 13.9", 0.48", 2.52cu|avg 2.59, 3.10 re, 0.84
9x19 Rem +P+ |115@1221, 20.1 mv, 380 E|BR 10.8", 0.63", 3.37cu|CL 10.9", 0.62", 3.29cu|avg 3.33, 3.33 re, 1.00
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1259, 20.7 mv, 404 E|BR 12.3", 0.67", 4.35cu|CL 22.1", 0.40", 2.78cu|avg 3.43, 3.54 re, 0.97
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1197, 19.7 mv, 365 E|BR 12.8", 0.67", 4.51cu|CL 22.6", 0.44", 3.44cu|avg 3.78, 3.20 re, 1.18
9x19 CorBon +P |115@1317, 21.6 mv, 442 E|BR 8.9", 0.52", 1.90cu|CL 10.2", 0.61", 2.98cu|avg 2.44, 3.87 re, 0.63
9x19 Fed +P |115@1237, 20.3 mv, 390 E|BR 11.2", 0.53", 2.48cu|CL 10.6", 0.62", 3.20cu|avg 2.84, 3.41 re, 0.83
9x19 Fed Silvertip |115@1091, 17.9 mv, 304 E|BR 10.1", 0.63", 3.13cu|CL 11.8", 0.58", 3.12cu|avg 3.13, 2.66 re, 1.18
9x19 CCI/Speer GD +P |124@1223, 21.7 mv, 411 E|BR 13.4", 0.68", 4.87cu|CL 20.2", 0.53", 4.47cu|avg 4.64, 3.88 re, 1.20
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |124@1116, 19.8 mv, 342 E|BR 11.8", 0.69", 4.41cu|CL 22.0", 0.36", 2.24cu|avg 3.22, 3.23 re, 1.00
9x19 Rem |124@1109, 19.6 mv, 338 E|BR 12.4", 0.60", 3.52cu|CL 13.7", 0.57", 3.50cu|avg 3.51, 3.19 re, 1.10
9x19 PMC/Eldorado SF |124@1118, 19.8 mv, 344 E|BR 10.7", 0.63", 3.32cu|CL 20.1", 0.41", 2.65cu|avg 2.98, 3.24 re, 0.92
9x19 CorBon XTP |124@1123, 19.9 mv, 347 E|BR 13.9", 0.56", 3.44cu|CL 18.3", 0.46", 3.04cu|avg 3.24, 3.27 re, 0.99
9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 935, 19.6 mv, 285 E|BR 13.6", 0.60", 3.85cu|CL 16.1", 0.52", 3.41cu|avg 3.63, 3.19 re, 1.14
9x19 Win Black Talon |147@ 946, 19.9 mv, 292 E|BR 14.8", 0.60", 4.20cu|CL 16.4", 0.61", 4.78cu|avg 4.49, 3.26 re, 1.38
9x19 Rem |147@ 987, 20.7 mv, 318 E|BR 18.1", 0.51", 3.71cu|CL 15.9", 0.59", 4.36cu|avg 4.03, 3.55 re, 1.14
9x19 Hornady XTP |147@ 918, 19.3 mv, 275 E|BR 22.1", 0.44", 3.36cu|CL 20.5", 0.46", 3.41cu|avg 3.18, 3.07 re, 1.04
9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 995, 20.9 mv, 323 E|BR 21.4", 0.37", 2.30cu|CL 15.6", 0.60", 4.41cu|avg 3.28, 3.61 re, 0.91
9x19 Win Silvertip |147@ 902, 18.9 mv, 265 E|BR 14.6", 0.53", 3.22cu|CL 18.1", 0.47", 3.14cu|avg 3.18, 2.97 re, 1.07
9x19 CCI/Speer GD+P |124@1155, 20.5 mv, 367 E|BR 13.2", 0.62", 3.99cu|CL 16.1", 0.53", 3.55cu|avg 3.77, 3.46 re, 1.09
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |124@1068, 18.9 mv, 314 E|BR 12.6", 0.59", 3.44cu|CL 17.5", 0.51", 3.57cu|avg 3.51, 2.96 re, 1.19
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |147@ 924, 19.4 mv, 278 E|BR 14.8", 0.57", 3.78cu|CL 14.7", 0.55", 3.49cu|avg 3.63, 3.11 re, 1.17
9x19 Win Ranger PG |124@1015, 18.0 mv, 283 E|BR 12.5", 0.65", 4.15cu|CL 14.0", 0.61", 4.09cu|avg 4.12, 2.67 re, 1.54
9x19 Win Ranger T |147@1016, 21.3 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.72cu|CL 15.7", 0.00", 0.00cu|avg 2.36, 3.76 re, 0.63
357SIG CCI/Speer GD |125@1372, 24.5 mv, 522 E|BR 16.1", 0.60", 4.54cu|CL 19.1", 0.54", 4.36cu|avg 4.45, 4.96 re, 0.90
40SW Win Ranger Talon|180@1000, 25.7 mv, 399 E|BR 13.6", 0.68", 4.92cu|CL 13.5", 0.68", 4.90cu|avg 4.91, 5.47 re, 0.90
40SW CCI/Speer GD |155@1176, 26.0 mv, 475 E|BR 10.7", 0.84", 5.93cu|CL 18.1", 0.57", 4.62cu|avg 5.27, 5.61 re, 0.94
40SW CCI/Speer GD |155@1186, 26.3 mv, 483 E|BR 10.7", 0.84", 5.93cu|CL 17.7", 0.58", 4.68cu|avg 5.30, 5.70 re, 0.93
40SW Hornady XTP |155@1194, 26.4 mv, 490 E|BR 14.5", 0.65", 4.81cu|CL 18.1", 0.55", 4.30cu|avg 4.56, 5.78 re, 0.79
40SW Win Silvertip |155@1199, 26.5 mv, 494 E|BR 12.2", 0.69", 4.54cu|CL 13.2", 0.71", 5.21cu|avg 4.87, 5.83 re, 0.84
40SW Fed Hi-Shok |155@1167, 25.8 mv, 468 E|BR 13.8", 0.61", 4.02cu|CL 19.5", 0.51", 3.98cu|avg 4.00, 5.52 re, 0.72
40SW CCI/Speer GD |165@1076, 25.4 mv, 424 E|BR 13.1", 0.65", 4.33cu|CL 15.8", 0.60", 4.47cu|avg 4.40, 5.32 re, 0.83
40SW Fed HydraShok |165@1007, 23.7 mv, 371 E|BR 13.8", 0.62", 4.18cu|CL 15.2", 0.64", 4.87cu|avg 4.53, 4.66 re, 0.97
40SW Rem |165@1031, 24.3 mv, 389 E|BR 12.5", 0.67", 4.41cu|CL 16.3", 0.61", 4.76cu|avg 4.59, 4.88 re, 0.94
40SW Fed HydeaShok |165@ 931, 21.9 mv, 317 E|BR 15.8", 0.58", 4.19cu|CL 21.1", 0.43", 3.06cu|avg 3.55, 3.98 re, 0.89
40SW Rem G.S. |165@ 952, 22.4 mv, 332 E|BR 13.1", 0.64", 4.21cu|CL 20.0", 0.53", 4.41cu|avg 4.31, 4.16 re, 1.04
40SW Rem G.S. |165@1022, 24.1 mv, 382 E|BR 14.8", 0.65", 4.89cu|CL 14.3", 0.66", 4.91cu|avg 4.90, 4.80 re, 1.02
40SW Fed HydraShok |165@ 943, 22.2 mv, 325 E|BR 18.2", 0.63", 5.69cu|CL 19.4", 0.56", 4.77cu|avg 5.23, 4.08 re, 1.28
40SW Win Ranger T. |180@ 947, 24.4 mv, 358 E|BR 13.8", 0.69", 5.14cu|CL 13.7", 0.70", 5.25cu|avg 5.20, 4.90 re, 1.06
40SW CCI/Speer GD |180@ 982, 25.3 mv, 385 E|BR 14.5", 0.59", 3.96cu|CL 17.6", 0.60", 4.96cu|avg 4.46, 5.27 re, 0.85
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 931, 23.9 mv, 346 E|BR 16.8", 0.69", 6.28cu|CL 16.9", 0.63", 5.28cu|avg 5.78, 4.74 re, 1.22
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 945, 24.3 mv, 356 E|BR 16.9", 0.64", 5.44cu|CL 21.0", 0.43", 3.05cu|avg 4.17, 4.88 re, 0.85
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 893, 23.0 mv, 318 E|BR 15.7", 0.65", 5.19cu|CL 21.1", 0.51", 4.32cu|avg 4.64, 4.36 re, 1.06
40SW CCI/Speer GD |180@ 958, 24.6 mv, 366 E|BR 14.6", 0.60", 4.13cu|CL 17.1", 0.62", 5.16cu|avg 4.65, 5.02 re, 0.93
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 954, 24.5 mv, 363 E|BR 14.8", 0.66", 5.06cu|CL 14.8", 0.67", 5.20cu|avg 5.13, 4.98 re, 1.03
40SW Win B.T. |180@ 917, 23.6 mv, 336 E|BR 13.5", 0.69", 5.05cu|CL 14.4", 0.70", 5.54cu|avg 5.29, 4.60 re, 1.15
40SW Hornady XTP |180@ 929, 23.9 mv, 345 E|BR 13.9", 0.64", 4.49cu|CL 18.4", 0.55", 4.38cu|avg 4.44, 4.72 re, 0.94
40SW Fed HydraShok |180@ 969, 24.9 mv, 375 E|BR 14.2", 0.69", 5.29cu|CL 19.8", 0.59", 5.41cu|avg 5.35, 5.13 re, 1.04
40SW Fed Hi-Shok |180@ 960, 24.7 mv, 368 E|BR 14.8", 0.66", 5.05cu|CL 24.0", 0.47", 4.16cu|avg 4.26, 5.04 re, 0.85
40SW Win Ranger SXT |180@ 905, 23.3 mv, 327 E|BR 11.2", 0.70", 4.31cu|CL 13.0", 0.64", 4.18cu|avg 4.25, 4.48 re, 0.95
40SW Win Ranger PG |165@1109, 26.1 mv, 450 E|BR 13.1", 0.73", 5.48cu|CL 14.5", 0.72", 5.90cu|avg 5.69, 5.65 re, 1.01
40SW Win Ranger T |180@ 943, 24.2 mv, 355 E|BR 13.6", 0.68", 4.94cu|CL 14.6", 0.70", 5.62cu|avg 5.28, 4.86 re, 1.09
45ACP CCI/Speer GD |185@1041, 27.5 mv, 445 E|BR 11.9", 0.68", 4.34cu|CL 14.8", 0.68", 5.36cu|avg 4.85, 6.26 re, 0.77
45ACP Rem G.S. |185@1037, 27.4 mv, 441 E|BR 14.4", 0.72", 5.86cu|CL 15.9", 0.68", 5.79cu|avg 5.83, 6.21 re, 0.94
45ACP Rem G.S. +P |185@1046, 27.6 mv, 449 E|BR 10.1", 0.87", 6.00cu|CL 9.5", 0.81", 4.90cu|avg 5.45, 6.32 re, 0.86
45ACP Fed Hi-Shok |185@ 874, 23.1 mv, 313 E|BR 11.7", 0.74", 5.03cu|CL 19.8", 0.61", 5.79cu|avg 5.41, 4.41 re, 1.23
45ACP Win Silvertip |185@ 951, 25.1 mv, 371 E|BR 10.7", 0.78", 5.11cu|CL 10.9", 0.73", 4.56cu|avg 4.84, 5.22 re, 0.93
45ACP Fed Hi-Shok |185@ 953, 25.2 mv, 373 E|BR 13.3", 0.63", 4.15cu|CL 12.4", 0.74", 5.33cu|avg 4.74, 5.24 re, 0.90
45ACP Rem |185@ 903, 23.9 mv, 335 E|BR 16.2", 0.70", 6.23cu|CL 24.6", 0.55", 5.83cu|avg 5.49, 4.71 re, 1.17
45ACP CCI/Speer GD +P |200@1062, 30.3 mv, 500 E|BR 11.7", 0.75", 5.17cu|CL 18.8", 0.55", 4.47cu|avg 4.82, 7.61 re, 0.63
45ACP Fed HydraShok |230@ 956, 31.4 mv, 466 E|BR 13.8", 0.72", 5.64cu|CL 13.6", 0.74", 5.83cu|avg 5.73, 8.16 re, 0.70
45ACP Fed HydraShok |230@ 878, 28.8 mv, 393 E|BR 16.6", 0.66", 5.66cu|CL 20.2", 0.55", 4.80cu|avg 5.21, 6.88 re, 0.76
45ACP Fed HydraShok |230@ 858, 28.2 mv, 375 E|BR 13.7", 0.71", 5.42cu|CL 16.4", 0.66", 5.59cu|avg 5.51, 6.57 re, 0.84
45ACP Win |230@ 802, 26.4 mv, 328 E|BR 17.9", 0.60", 5.06cu|CL 24.0", 0.51", 4.90cu|avg 4.57, 5.74 re, 0.80
45ACP Fed HydraShok |230@ 854, 28.1 mv, 372 E|BR 14.9", 0.71", 5.90cu|CL 15.4", 0.64", 4.97cu|avg 5.43, 6.51 re, 0.83
45ACP Rem G.S. |230@ 885, 29.1 mv, 399 E|BR 14.1", 0.76", 6.37cu|CL 16.6", 0.69", 6.19cu|avg 6.28, 6.99 re, 0.90
45ACP Win Ranger SXT |230@ 819, 26.9 mv, 342 E|BR 13.2", 0.73", 5.55cu|CL 17.9", 0.63", 5.56cu|avg 5.55, 5.99 re, 0.93
45ACP CCI/Speer GD |230@ 896, 29.4 mv, 409 E|BR 16.0", 0.69", 5.98cu|CL 18.9", 0.59", 5.17cu|avg 5.58, 7.17 re, 0.78
45ACP PMC/Eldorado SF |230@ 853, 28.0 mv, 371 E|BR 13.9", 0.67", 4.90cu|CL 22.6", 0.45", 3.59cu|avg 4.04, 6.49 re, 0.62
45ACP Rem G.S. |230@ 871, 28.6 mv, 387 E|BR 15.0", 0.71", 5.94cu|CL 18.9", 0.73", 7.89cu|avg 6.91, 6.77 re, 1.02
45ACP CCI/Speer GD |230@ 847, 27.8 mv, 366 E|BR 13.2", 0.74", 5.66cu|CL 14.3", 0.70", 5.50cu|avg 5.58, 6.40 re, 0.87
45ACP Fed Hi-Shok |230@ 860, 28.3 mv, 377 E|BR 13.8", 0.80", 6.96cu|CL 17.4", 0.67", 6.13cu|avg 6.55, 6.60 re, 0.99
45ACP Win. B.T. |230@ 886, 29.1 mv, 400 E|BR 11.9", 0.77", 5.56cu|CL 13.9", 0.74", 6.00cu|avg 5.78, 7.01 re, 0.83
Great post.
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Old 01-25-2012, 20:05   #27
homersapien
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Ahhhh...the never ending "which caliber is best" argument, where the 9, 40, and 45 crowd argue back and forth while the 357 and 10 guys - truly the best combat rounds - sit back and smile.
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Old 01-25-2012, 23:06   #28
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IMO, any centerfire non-magnum handgun caliber is a marginal one shot fight stopper at best.

Bill Jordan used to say something like, if you know you're headed into trouble, make your war weapon a rifle or shotgun and quit arguing about unimportant details like which handgun caliber is best. And he was a master 357 magnum shooter.
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Old 01-26-2012, 03:22   #29
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Originally Posted by Caver 60 View Post
IMO, any centerfire non-magnum handgun caliber is a marginal one shot fight stopper at best.

Bill Jordan used to say something like, if you know you're headed into trouble, make your war weapon a rifle or shotgun and quit arguing about unimportant details like which handgun caliber is best. And he was a master 357 magnum shooter.
Nothing handheld is a reliable manstopper.
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Old 01-26-2012, 03:57   #30
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This is my opinion, and usage:

.45 For Offense
9mm For Defense
.40 General use/truck gun
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:05   #31
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Barrel length is rarely brought up in these discussions. Usually rounds are tested from full sized handguns but when they're fired from short barrel carry guns things change. .40 is generally said to be too "snappy" because it gets up and out of bed faster than the lower pressure 9mm and .45ACP. The downside to this is having the gun recoil further off target than a 9 or .45 would and slowing follow up shots. I tend to think that the first shot is the most important so I count on making that first shot count with the round that's going to hit the hardest from a 3.5" barrel.

Then there's the fact that .40 is a whole lot louder than the other two. I'm not sure how much the "OH $*!*" factor is worth if you miss but I like to think it's good for something.

We all rationalize why our carry round (and gun and holster location and grip and countless other factors) is best. This is my process. I have a 9mm and .45 as well and I'm a logical fellow so if anyone can provide evidence why I should be carrying another round I'll make the switch.
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:22   #32
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Pick the one you shoot well and can reliably use to accurately put rounds on target.

Everything else is meaningless; if you can't stop the threat it doesn't matter what you carry.
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