GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-23-2012, 20:21   #81
nickE10mm
F.S.F.O.S.
 
nickE10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 4,343
Send a message via AIM to nickE10mm Send a message via MSN to nickE10mm Send a message via Yahoo to nickE10mm
To summarize the info we have gleaned from the late Mike Willard @ Swampfox:

9.4gr LS under a 200gr XTP = 1240fps (+) in G20 w/ AFTERMARKET FULLY SUPPORTED barrel ONLY.

10.0gr LS under a 200gr XTP = 1325fps in G20 w/ AFTERMARKET FULLY SUPPORTED barrel.

Primers used were CCI300 NON mag primers.

The charge should be reduced for use in a longer 6" barrel otherwise pressure will be too high. Per The late Mike W.


Standard disclaimer applies. Do your OWN slow, careful workups with new brass. ALSO, it's my opinion that the 10.0gr load probably averages over 37.5k. Just my guess.
__________________
10 Ring #1033 - Longslide #1045 - 10mm Loader #1066

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Why do I carry a 10mm?
“Because a 9mm only kills your body… the 10mm kills your soul.”

Last edited by nickE10mm; 01-25-2012 at 06:16..
nickE10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2012, 09:27   #82
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,309
Added info to reflect what nickE10mm mentioned to the page...I would suggest that people read all of the info by going to the GlockTalk link provided...
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1357227 Date 07-23-2011, 22:19 #20

This is so those wishing to get a grasp of the type of person Mudrush was and what was discussed...
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member
_The_Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2012, 15:53   #83
Any Cal.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 443
............

Last edited by Any Cal.; 01-24-2012 at 23:59..
Any Cal. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2012, 17:09   #84
Taterhead
Counting Beans
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 2,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
Yes, it is important that we all take to heart the misinformation provided by a guy who didn't understand what he was doing. I think we should all try to spread that around, so as to further misinform others and make it even more difficult for those who are trying to understand what is really happening. It is especially comforting to know that he was selling handloaded ammunition, despite not having even a rudimentary understanding of internal ballistics.
In all seriousness, I am trying to follow your remarks, but am not sure if there is sarcasm, etc. Are you saying that you believe that mudrush lacked an understanding about internal ballistics?

Not challenging you. Just trying to make sure I understand your remarks. Would you mind elaborating a bit?

Thanks.
Taterhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2012, 22:30   #85
Yondering
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 563
He's probably referring to the "higher pressure in 6"+ barrels" comment. See the discussion of that topic in another thread on this forum. I don't agree with mudrush's claim either, but it's pretty much a moot point for us handloaders, as we should be working up to max loads in each barrel and gun anyway.

I'm sure there's more to be discussed about the 6" barrel issue; can we do that in the other thread, to not clutter this one?

I'm sorry to hear that mudrush has passed; it sounds like we could have learned more from him, and him from us as well. It was generous of him to share his load data with us.

Last edited by Yondering; 01-24-2012 at 22:31..
Yondering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2012, 23:47   #86
Any Cal.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 443
Taterhead, I did elaborate, but then realized how far off topic my last post was getting... Your quote will show my original post, everything else edited for brevity.

Last edited by Any Cal.; 01-25-2012 at 00:02..
Any Cal. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 05:58   #87
gwsanfor
Senior Member
 
gwsanfor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickE10mm View Post
To summarize:

9.4gr LS under a 200gr XTP = 1240fps (+) in G20 w/ AFTERMARKET FULLY SUPPORTED barrel ONLY.

10.0gr LS under a 200gr XTP = 1325fps in G20 w/ AFTERMARKET FULLY SUPPORTED barrel.

Primers used were CCI300 NON mag primers.

The charge should be reduced for use in a longer 6" barrel otherwise pressure will be too high. Per The late Mike W.

Standard disclaimer applies. Do your OWN slow, careful workups with new brass. ALSO, it's my opinion that the 10.0gr load probably averages over 37.5k. Just my guess.
Indeed, something north of 37,500. Altough QuickLoad is not always exact, and I'd appreciate another QL user checking this, with a measured 0.676" long .400" diameter 200 gr XTP (40060) in 24.6 gr H2O MCC 0.987" long Starline brass with 10.0 gr LongShot 1.26" OAL from a G20sf, QL shows 1316 fps at 62,825 psi. That velocity is about what you indicated, I hope the pressure calculation is not correct. Personally, I would not load that round.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
2011

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
gwsanfor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 10:54   #88
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,309
Actually the Hornady 200XTP's I measured were 0.680"-0.682"

I don't know if I would ever go to the 10 grain LongShot loading, however I'll be testing the 9.4 grains of LongShot, as this is what was sold by SwampFox in the lot# of ammo I have on hand. Everyone was raving over this stuff!
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member
_The_Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 15:48   #89
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,309
Did a little test today using the SwamFox 9.4 grain of LongShot with 200 grain Hornady XTP's loading...

1) "Used" Starline Brass which had a slight smile and loose primer pocket before sizing, this was reconditioned using the LEE FCD as a pass-thru-die. After the shot from the S&W 1006 velocity 1260 fps, it expanded to 0.4295" and the loose primer pocket showed some soot leakage.

2) Again with the S&W 1006 a "used" Federal casing which disappeared into grass never to be found but regestered 1296 fps.

3) Tested from the Glock-29 @ 1175 fps "used" Starline casing expanded to 0.4340"

)4 Again from the Glock-29 @ 1177 fps "used" Hornady casing expanded to 0.4340", this case split lengthwise 0.3535" long about mid case.
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member

Last edited by _The_Shadow; 01-26-2012 at 16:40..
_The_Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 15:58   #90
gwsanfor
Senior Member
 
gwsanfor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
Did a little test today using the SwamFox 9.4 grain of LongShot with 200 grain Hornady XTP's loading...

1) "Used" Starline Brass which had a slight smile and loose primer pocket before sizing, this was reconditioned using the LEE FCD as a pass-thru-die. After the shot from the S&W 1006 velocity 1260 fps, it expanded to 0.4295" and the loose primer pocket showed some soot leakage.

2) Again with the S&W 1006 a "used" Federal casing which disappeared into grass never to be found but regestered 1296 fps.

3) Tested from the Glock-29 @ 1175 fps "used" Starline casing expanded to 0.430"

)4 Again from the Glock-29 @ 1177 fps "used" Hornady casing expanded to 0.430", this case split lengthwise 0.3535" long about mid case.
Shadow,

Using your XTP 200 gr (40060) .461" bullet length and 5" barrel, assuming 1.26" OAL, QL predicts 1277 fps at 54,431 psi for 9.4 gr LS at 70F. That velocity agrees pretty well with your cases 1, 2, and 3. Hope the pressure is being over-predicted by QL.

Image at https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5f...I1N2Y1YjNkMjNk
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
2011

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by gwsanfor; 01-25-2012 at 16:03.. Reason: Added link to image
gwsanfor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 17:30   #91
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsanfor View Post
Shadow,

Using your XTP 200 gr (40060) .461" bullet length and 5" barrel, assuming 1.26" OAL, QL predicts 1277 fps at 54,431 psi for 9.4 gr LS at 70F. That velocity agrees pretty well with your cases 1, 2, and 3. Hope the pressure is being over-predicted by QL.

Image at https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5f...I1N2Y1YjNkMjNk
The XTP 200 gr (40060) actual measure at 0.6820"-0.6825" in length
I loaded to 1.250"
Yes it was probably at least 75F today and slightly above sea level 22'-25'

I am not that familure with the Quickload Software but I have seen people post that these loads are above the 37,500 psi ceiling in the charts. Pressure testing would likely show results one way or the other.

One thing I read about pressure testing rigs was that SAAMI test barrel rigs have the strain gauge mounted on the inside the chamber as opposed to the RSI type with the strain gauge on the exterior of the test barrel. The cartridge case expansion acts directly on the inside chamber mounted unit that is slightly recessed in the walls of the specific chamber.

Like I mentioned these were "used" brass that were reconditioned using the LEE FCD as a pass-thru-die, all finished rounds easily fit the Lyman cartridge gauge.

(brass#1) The primer pocket was loose prior to reloading that one and I fully expected it to have some blow by, however all primers were slightly flattened during this test and no leaks for the other two I recovered.

(brass#4) Hornady, I did not expect to see it split like it did. But I have seen this happen on new ammo (FC more than any other) on a first firing.

I know many use new brass to test their stuff, but I test using new and used and in different pistols or barrels for comparisons.

I personally do not have any pressure testing equipment, I only have digital calipers and chronograph to work with.
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member
_The_Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2012, 17:39   #92
nickE10mm
F.S.F.O.S.
 
nickE10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 4,343
Send a message via AIM to nickE10mm Send a message via MSN to nickE10mm Send a message via Yahoo to nickE10mm
EXCELLENT info and testing, Shadow... Very enlightening. I'll have more related data when I finally get some chrono time. Again, good info here!
__________________
10 Ring #1033 - Longslide #1045 - 10mm Loader #1066

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Why do I carry a 10mm?
“Because a 9mm only kills your body… the 10mm kills your soul.”
nickE10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 06:54   #93
nickE10mm
F.S.F.O.S.
 
nickE10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 4,343
Send a message via AIM to nickE10mm Send a message via MSN to nickE10mm Send a message via Yahoo to nickE10mm
Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
Did a little test today using the SwamFox 9.4 grain of LongShot with 200 grain Hornady XTP's loading...

1) "Used" Starline Brass which had a slight smile and loose primer pocket before sizing, this was reconditioned using the LEE FCD as a pass-thru-die. After the shot from the S&W 1006 velocity 1260 fps, it expanded to 0.4295" and the loose primer pocket showed some soot leakage.

2) Again with the S&W 1006 a "used" Federal casing which disappeared into grass never to be found but regestered 1296 fps.

3) Tested from the Glock-29 @ 1175 fps "used" Starline casing expanded to 0.430"

)4 Again from the Glock-29 @ 1177 fps "used" Hornady casing expanded to 0.430", this case split lengthwise 0.3535" long about mid case.
Could you post pics of the cases... or at least the Hornady case that split?
__________________
10 Ring #1033 - Longslide #1045 - 10mm Loader #1066

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Why do I carry a 10mm?
“Because a 9mm only kills your body… the 10mm kills your soul.”
nickE10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 08:48   #94
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,309
These were used brass that I tested with, I have no idea how many times they were shot, but as mentioned the one the primer leaked on, the primer was loose when I installed it. So I expected it would leak some and it did. The Hornady case may have been work hardened but the other was just fine. NO "smiles" from this test from either pistol.

10mm Reloading Forum

10mm Reloading Forum
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member

Last edited by _The_Shadow; 01-26-2012 at 10:05..
_The_Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 19:44   #95
G29SF
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Highland, IL
Posts: 214
I'm getting pretty close to reloading myself... and fully intend on working up to the 200gr XTP @ 1325 fps loads that Swamp Fox used to make. (Yes, slowly... no need for safety comments.)

I shot a lot of those loads in my G29SF without any issues. I was using a KKM barrel for what it is worth. I think we have seen enough things go wrong with a stock Glock barrel and loads this hot. I will always use my KKM.

Just thought I would bring this up in case anyone was looking for someone who actually shot those loads. (I know there are a lot of us, but don't know if any are responding here.)

I never had any case splitting or buldging problems, however I was using Mike's new loads and not reloading myself with used brass.
__________________
G20SF: 10mm KKM, .40 S&W KKM, .357 Sig KKM; 9x25 Dillon LWD; 22# spring, Arredondo +4 mag extension
G29SF: 10mm KKM; 9x25 Dillon LWD; 23# spring, Pearce +0 pinky grip
G33: Pearce +0 pinky grip
G32 Gen4

Last edited by G29SF; 01-26-2012 at 19:46..
G29SF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2012, 19:57   #96
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,309
G29SF, was that the velocity listed on the box of Swamp Fox? It would be nice if you could use a kenetic bullet puller to pull down one form that box and actually measure the powder charge...The more we can learn before the actual loadings are gone the better!

Have you ever worked with Hodgdon "LongShot"? IMR "Hi-Skor" 800X? The reason I ask is would you reconize one from the other? Swamp Fox posted he loaded with either for some loadings.

It would be great to have people do this like I did to learn even more of Mudrush's work before it is too late.
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member
_The_Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2012, 17:17   #97
_The_Shadow
Ret. Fireman
 
_The_Shadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southeast, LoUiSiAna
Posts: 4,309
Just as a reference for the 9.4 grain LongShot load that I tested here is a screen shot of the Quick Load program which a friend has run for me so I will share it here...
10mm Reloading Forum

As you can see the pressure is shown above that of the SAAMI MAP for 10mm. I don't know exactly how accurate the data is, but the 58,823 psi was the predicted peak. I don't see myself working past this load toward the 10.0 grain LongShot which Mudrush posted.

I would like to see what XMMAUTO's pressure test would show on his rig?
__________________
Southeast, LoUiSiAna
NRA Life Member
BASS Life Member
_The_Shadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 07:41   #98
Kegs
Ol 8 fingers ;)
 
Kegs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Cold side of conus
Posts: 2,682
Quik load = LOLZ! Worse accuracy than al gores climate charts!
__________________
"What's the down side to 10mm again? Oh, that's right, there isn't one."" Carrier21
Kegs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2012, 13:13   #99
nickE10mm
F.S.F.O.S.
 
nickE10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 4,343
Send a message via AIM to nickE10mm Send a message via MSN to nickE10mm Send a message via Yahoo to nickE10mm
SwampFox 200gr XTP @ 1325fps - FULLY SUPPORTED AFTERMARKET BARREL ONLY

See this thread: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthre...1#post18638379

I found this load to contain 9.9gr Longshot under a 200gr XTP, loaded to an OAL of 1.250-1.251"
__________________
10 Ring #1033 - Longslide #1045 - 10mm Loader #1066

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Why do I carry a 10mm?
“Because a 9mm only kills your body… the 10mm kills your soul.”
nickE10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 16:15   #100
ryangt
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 50
What's a good load for 155gr lead swc using longshot? Was going to pick up some of these http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.c...%7C1083%7C1135

Good price and has a saeco hardness of 9. Which converts to a bhn of 17. Any tips? Couldn't find anything on this thread, but might of overlooked it.

Out of curiosity does lead usually get loaded with more or less powder than a jacketed bullet? Swc vs fmj.
ryangt is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:49.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 935
292 Members
643 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31