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Old 02-07-2012, 08:47   #121
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Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
Honestly this is a "tough" sub forum on Glock Talk IMO. Lots of anger and insults flying in here. Some great posters but a bunch of know it alls as well. Don't let it get you down

Well stated! The closest some here have ever been in a firefight is with their charcoal grills, let alone what is "the best" fighting rifle. You but what you can afford and enjoy it, don't let a few chuckheads discourage you.
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Old 02-07-2012, 09:23   #122
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Well stated! The closest some here have ever been in a firefight is with their charcoal grills, let alone what is "the best" fighting rifle. You but what you can afford and enjoy it, don't let a few chuckheads discourage you.
When I was active duty, I was in a firefight with my Kiwi shoe polish. Burnt a big hole in the carpet of the living room. Does that count?
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Old 02-07-2012, 09:28   #123
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I feel as though I fell and hit my head, and when I woke up I was back in the 1911 vs. Glock forums.

It ends up being the same argument over and over again, and if you don't spend $3500 on a one-off custom made 1911 that was made on machines lubricated with the blood of poor people, it's a piece of garbage, and will inevitably cost you your life.

Has the Colt 1911 and the Colt AR brought a lot of guys back home safely? Absolutely. No question about it, but so have Glocks, so have M&P15's, so have Bushmasters, so have...so have...so have... Does that mean that anything that doesn't have a Colt logo on it is a piece of crap, just because it's half the cost?

I've got a Kimber 1911, has never jammed on me.
I've got a Glock 23 and 27, has never jammed on me.
I've got a M&P15 Sport, has never jammed on me.
I had a Taurus TCP .380, (once I got through the recommended break in period), it never jammed on me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is while new users are browsing these forums, there should be a bit of understanding that there are users on here that are true Firearm Enthusiasts, and there are other users on here that are just Tacticool Fanboys that use their $4,000 rifles outfitted with their flashlights, lasers, bi-pods, tactical salt & pepper shaker, $700 optics, and portable ghillie suit to punch holes in paper and shoot the occasional prairie dog, and think that overspending and buying all kinds of gadgets makes them an authority on something.
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Old 02-07-2012, 11:50   #124
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When I was active duty, I was in a firefight with my Kiwi shoe polish. Burnt a big hole in the carpet of the living room. Does that count?
Hell Yeah!
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Old 02-07-2012, 12:47   #125
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I feel as though I fell and hit my head, and when I woke up I was back in the 1911 vs. Glock forums.

It ends up being the same argument over and over again, and if you don't spend $3500 on a one-off custom made 1911 that was made on machines lubricated with the blood of poor people, it's a piece of garbage, and will inevitably cost you your life.

Has the Colt 1911 and the Colt AR brought a lot of guys back home safely? Absolutely. No question about it, but so have Glocks, so have M&P15's, so have Bushmasters, so have...so have...so have... Does that mean that anything that doesn't have a Colt logo on it is a piece of crap, just because it's half the cost?

I've got a Kimber 1911, has never jammed on me.
I've got a Glock 23 and 27, has never jammed on me.
I've got a M&P15 Sport, has never jammed on me.
I had a Taurus TCP .380, (once I got through the recommended break in period), it never jammed on me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is while new users are browsing these forums, there should be a bit of understanding that there are users on here that are true Firearm Enthusiasts, and there are other users on here that are just Tacticool Fanboys that use their $4,000 rifles outfitted with their flashlights, lasers, bi-pods, tactical salt & pepper shaker, $700 optics, and portable ghillie suit to punch holes in paper and shoot the occasional prairie dog, and think that overspending and buying all kinds of gadgets makes them an authority on something.
I see what you are saying. You spend money for quality stuff and you are a Tacticool Fanboy.

But you see that is where you need to put that you are an NRA Firearms Instructor at the bottom of your tagline so that everyone knows how much of an expert you really are?

How long was that class again? Oh yeah a whole weekend if my memory serves me.

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Old 02-07-2012, 12:59   #126
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I don't consider myself an authority but a well informed customer. And yes I will take my quality stuff and some of you can sit and stroke your egos regarding how awesome you all are and continue the put downs one after another about how much other people don't know what they are talking about and that you somehow found the "holy grail" of bargain bin pricing. But that is a disservice to new comers looking to get into a quality weapon.

Some of us know what we speak of because:
#1 we have purchased these inferior ARs personally in the past and got rid of them because they are junk
#2 actually done more than go to the local gun shop & range
#3 some of us even had our shooting sports pay for our collegiate NCAA scholarships - you know one of those Tactic-Cool fanboys as you call me I guess.

And you guys are moaning over a few hundred bucks in buying a complete knock-off vs. a quality firearm? My Anschutz cost a little under $6K for a .22LR and I couldn't even imagine what you folks would say about that one. The bottom line is Quality = Money. And to suggest anything different is just inane.

But as a tacticool guy that I guess you are calling me - I do recommend Noveske Rifles. Worth every penny (even though the optics do cost a little more than $700 but who's counting)

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And in true "Bac 1911 forum style" I will post some pictures.

I also highly recommend the Noveske 8" in 300BLK that just came out as well. I really like the new Gen II lowers.

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Or the 5.56 version (bottom) Noveske w/ Switchblock is also a great choice.

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Old 02-07-2012, 13:12   #127
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Old 02-07-2012, 13:35   #128
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Awesome rifles.

OP, congrats on your rifle and enjoy it!
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Old 02-07-2012, 14:24   #129
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Sounds like a great buy. I hope you enjoy it and please ignore the naysayers on here. They are the same ones who were so negative with my DPMS Classic purchase. I enjoyed the heck out of that rifle with not a single malfunction.

The bottom line is you get what you can afford and then shoot it and enjoy it.
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Old 02-07-2012, 15:12   #130
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The bottom line is you get what you can afford and then shoot it and enjoy it.
that is exactly what i did,
i lurked and performed due diligence,
then its a S&W sport, my first AR.

for instance:
i have a S&B 3-12x50 A9, on a remington 700, with a .308 21" hart .75" barrel, jewell trigger, glassed boyd's.
it shoots .234moa, so i do know where to put my value.
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Old 02-07-2012, 15:51   #131
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Javelin, I think you are confusing the terms quality and value. Let me see if I can put it another way where you may relate. My father shoots Perazzi shotguns. Why? Because he can afford to and he shoots sporting clays, skeet, and hunts often. He goes through a lot of shells and needs a quality gun that can take the amount of use that his gun gets. I also shoot sporting clays and hunt, but not as often as my father. I may shoot 3 cases of shells a year. So while a Perazzi would be a quality shotgun for me to have, I do not shoot enough to make the Perazzi a good value. I am better served by my old Beretta B-4 or Remington 870 if I am going duck hunting. These guns are not the same quality as my father's, but represent value for the type of use that they see from me.

The M&P Sport is the same type of deal. It represents a good VALUE to a shooter that may only shoot it once a month and run 100 rounds through it at the range. Or, in my case, a shooter that wants a light rifle with high capacity to hunt hogs with a few times a year. While the Sport may not be the same quality as your Noveske, it is a good value to this type of use. It may, or may not, hold up for heavy use day in and day out, but that is not the target market either.
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Old 02-07-2012, 15:59   #132
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[QUOTE=Javelin;18543250]
I also highly recommend the Noveske 8" in 300BLK that just came out as well. I really like the new Gen II lowers.
Black Rifle Forum


Is that rifle taking a queue from the Sport with the integrated trigger guard? I kid, I kid!

Nice rifle, and as far as the Anschutz, if you shoot the competitions where that level of quality is needed to compete, making it a good value for you, then no beef here. What kind of bulk pack ammo gives you the best groups though?
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Old 02-07-2012, 16:31   #133
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Javelin, I think you are confusing the terms quality and value. Let me see if I can put it another way where you may relate. My father shoots Perazzi shotguns. Why? Because he can afford to and he shoots sporting clays, skeet, and hunts often. He goes through a lot of shells and needs a quality gun that can take the amount of use that his gun gets. I also shoot sporting clays and hunt, but not as often as my father. I may shoot 3 cases of shells a year. So while a Perazzi would be a quality shotgun for me to have, I do not shoot enough to make the Perazzi a good value. I am better served by my old Beretta B-4 or Remington 870 if I am going duck hunting. These guns are not the same quality as my father's, but represent value for the type of use that they see from me.

The M&P Sport is the same type of deal. It represents a good VALUE to a shooter that may only shoot it once a month and run 100 rounds through it at the range. Or, in my case, a shooter that wants a light rifle with high capacity to hunt hogs with a few times a year. While the Sport may not be the same quality as your Noveske, it is a good value to this type of use. It may, or may not, hold up for heavy use day in and day out, but that is not the target market either.
This man speaks the truth. As I said before, no point in telling a grandma to buy a Ferrari if all she's using it for is to pick up milk from the corner store.

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Old 02-07-2012, 17:51   #134
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I see what you are saying. You spend money for quality stuff and you are a Tacticool Fanboy.

But you see that is where you need to put that you are an NRA Firearms Instructor at the bottom of your tagline so that everyone knows how much of an expert you really are?

How long was that class again? Oh yeah a whole weekend if my memory serves me.

I don't think spending money on any firearms makes you a Tacticool Fanboy, talking trash about what other people shoot does. Not saying you were doing that at all but we all know some folks on here do.

Somebody buys a less expensive AR and post almost anything about it and the AR attack dogs come out in force. Throwing comments about "combat ready" and "military grade" out as if that was relevant in every case, it simply is not. Not to mention those of us who served know all to well "military grade" is not all that great sometimes

It is more rampent on this sub forum than anywhere else on Glock Talk IMO. The 1911 forum is not nearly this aggressive and the cost difference between 1911s is even greater than ARs.

To each their own but I think that there is a wee bit of armchair commando in this forum at times

I only have 2 ARs, not sure how much they cost in total as I pieced them together over time. I would guess $1100 - $1200 each. One is a CMMG lower with a LMT upper and the other is a LRB lower with a BCM upper. Many different companies make up the rest of the guns. I like them and they work so that is all I am concerned with. I am blessed to where I could have purchased whatever maker I wanted but I have no need to spend more for my use. Not to mention why spend money on ARs when there are so many 1911s to buy!

Just seems odd to me that people are so eager to insult what others buy.

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Old 02-07-2012, 23:45   #135
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To the OP, congrats on your rifle. There is nothing wrong, especially as an entry rifle, with a S&W. If you run into issues, address them, learn, and drive on. Even MSG Paul Howe (of Somalia notoriety) has ran DPMS rifles with success (as loaners). If you want this rifle to be your fun gun I think it will fill your needs just fine. Who cares if you run irons or an optic made in Botswana if it's a fun gun? I sure as hell don't.

To everyone else,
My post count has slowed down tremendously here over the last year and primarily for one reason. So many people never make an attempt to back up their stance with anything more than crap they read on Google. I don't give a rat's behind if you disagree with me. All I care is that you show something substantial to back it up.

For instance, the "My $30 optic is just as nice as an Aimpoint, Trijicon, etc" stance can go like this:
A)"Don't listen to all the stupid mall-ninjas out there who tell you that you need to throw down some serious cash for a good optic. My $30 optic from Botswana has owned noobs 4 real!!! I never had a problem with it! I love shooting better than those snobs with their $10k rifles!"

or

B)" I think you will be just fine with brand X optic because my experience has shown it will fit your niche well. I have used brand x optic on my rifle for well over a year now, after shooting XXXX rounds, and it has performed exceptionally. I have never had a zero shift, nor have I experienced a deviation from claimed battery life. I can't claim that all brands of optics in this price range will work well for you, but my personal experience with this brand has been superb"

I hope most of you can see what is wrong with the first argument. It is combative in nature and shows no point of reference (how well used the optic is, shooting ability of the "snobs", etc). These comments are what make SME's run away from contributing in forums. The second statement shows humility, experience, and reasoning. I pray for the day this forum has a majority of members who are willing to discuss these topics in this manner (but not holding my breath).

On the flipside, the same goes for people who mouth away about their ridiculously awesome rifles. If you claim to know why your rifle is better than everything else in the world, show some reasoning behind it rather than referencing one or two sources as the be-all-end-all of the AR-15 world. Tell us how you know what you know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
Javelin, I think you are confusing the terms quality and value. Let me see if I can put it another way where you may relate. My father shoots Perazzi shotguns. Why? Because he can afford to and he shoots sporting clays, skeet, and hunts often. He goes through a lot of shells and needs a quality gun that can take the amount of use that his gun gets. I also shoot sporting clays and hunt, but not as often as my father. I may shoot 3 cases of shells a year. So while a Perazzi would be a quality shotgun for me to have, I do not shoot enough to make the Perazzi a good value. I am better served by my old Beretta B-4 or Remington 870 if I am going duck hunting. These guns are not the same quality as my father's, but represent value for the type of use that they see from me.
I'd love to comment on this. I was blessed with the opportunity to shoot on the Marine Corps Skeet Team back in 2007 and had a blast. My true origins in gun enthusiasm came from the skeet fields.

I think a more fair comparison between shotguns would be with shotguns meant for the same purpose. While shotguns and AR's are completely different, there is some reflection between the "tiers" of options. My comparison is with over/under skeet type shotguns (because comparing a Benelli M4 and a Holland & Holland is useless).

At the top you have your Perazzi's, Kolar's, Kreighoff's, and the upper-end Beretta's, etc.

At the middle you have your Citori's, most of your Beretta's, various Remington's, Winchester 101's, SKB's, etc.

At the bottom you have your Russian type over-under shotguns and other cheaper options that people use for skeet. I have yet to meet a competitive shooter who uses, for instance, a Spartan over/under.

So what are the differences? For the most part they are creature comforts between the middle range and upper range shotguns. A quality Citori in the hand of a skilled skeet shooter will perform just as well as a Perazzi. Will it be as finely built, intricatly detailed as the Perazzi? No, but it will shoot well and be competitive. This is how I feel about the differences between models like the Colt 6920 and the KAC SR-15. Both are made of exceptional quality and will run well, but one has many more added comforts than the other.

As for the bottom range, they will work great for many people who approach the game of skeet for fun. These aren't the people who shoot 3 cases a weekend of Remington STS or Winchester AA's. These are typically the people who shoot a couple boxes of Estate a month and shoot for the fun of it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, just as long as they don't claim to be the next Todd Bender.

Cheers,
Dan
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Old 02-07-2012, 23:58   #136
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I've seen all types of Gear Queers that tout brand X or Y over the years, defending it like it's their first born child. But just like with anything else owning ARs and shooting them are two different things. Notice how pristine those Noveskes look. I'm not impressed by anything Javelin says because he's yet to back up ANYTHING outside of anecdotes that are far from concrete.

If these guns aren't a great value then I'd like someone to PROVE it to me. Show me how many rounds, and what broke, and why this happens to more than one person.

The truth is that value is all over the gun world and you just have to know where to find it.

But hey what do I know? SEAL Team 6 will NOT be calling me in the next 48hrs like some others pretend.
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Old 02-07-2012, 23:58   #137
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Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
Javelin, I think you are confusing the terms quality and value. Let me see if I can put it another way where you may relate. My father shoots Perazzi shotguns. Why? Because he can afford to and he shoots sporting clays, skeet, and hunts often. He goes through a lot of shells and needs a quality gun that can take the amount of use that his gun gets. I also shoot sporting clays and hunt, but not as often as my father. I may shoot 3 cases of shells a year. So while a Perazzi would be a quality shotgun for me to have, I do not shoot enough to make the Perazzi a good value. I am better served by my old Beretta B-4 or Remington 870 if I am going duck hunting. These guns are not the same quality as my father's, but represent value for the type of use that they see from me.

The M&P Sport is the same type of deal. It represents a good VALUE to a shooter that may only shoot it once a month and run 100 rounds through it at the range. Or, in my case, a shooter that wants a light rifle with high capacity to hunt hogs with a few times a year. While the Sport may not be the same quality as your Noveske, it is a good value to this type of use. It may, or may not, hold up for heavy use day in and day out, but that is not the target market either.
Ok I will answer it. Again, I am not a subject matter expert - just an informed buyer because I have purchased many and shot my entire life.

First, I don't really know how to make the parable from basic built ARs to competition shotguns. I can understand what you are saying here as I shoot a new Browning Citori for Skeet & Trap. Browning really stepped up their game as it has the new backbored barrels like the Perazzi and Beretta shotguns. I don't think I would have even considered the Citori had they not started to compete with the upper echelons and probably would have went with Beretta. I had to make an educated decision - I did consider a used Perazzi from a young shooter on the US Shooting Team that was selling theirs but @ $14K I just couldn't bring myself to pull that trigger.

So the price difference between my $2,900 Citori and your fine hand made Perazzi shotguns are $10K (if not more) while the difference between a S&W Sporter and a real AR is like $300. Really not that big of difference.
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Old 02-08-2012, 00:03   #138
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I've seen all types of Gear Queers that tout brand X or Y over the years, defending it like it's their first born child. But just like with anything else owning ARs and shooting them are two different things. Notice how pristine those Noveskes look. I'm not impressed by anything Javelin says because he's yet to back up ANYTHING outside of anecdotes that are far from concrete.

If these guns aren't a great value then I'd like someone to PROVE it to me. Show me how many rounds, and what broke, and why this happens to more than one person.

The truth is that value is all over the gun world and you just have to know where to find it.

But hey what do I know? SEAL Team 6 will NOT be calling me in the next 48hrs like some others pretend.
I'm not sure where you are going with this. I don't have to prove anything to you sir. You can hit the search button if you like and go to other sites that will give in-depth pictorial information about your round counts, what broke, etc. There are many knowledgeable people out there - I took the time to post the pics of my guns and gave you my advice. Buy what you want.

Quote:
But just like with anything else owning ARs and shooting them are two different things. Notice how pristine those Noveskes look.
EDIT: Awh I see there... I 'prove' I own them but you feel they are 'too nice' like I need to throw them on the ground in my driveway and rough them up a bit (true story someone did that once on AR15.com) and so now you're trying to bust my gonads and claim I don't actually shoot them. I see.... you got me there. I don't know how I would prove to you that I shoot without giving up my personal identity... but I'm sure you could come up with something else to personally attack me with. So I guess you'll just have me in suspense while I wait for you to come up with something else ...
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Old 02-08-2012, 00:12   #139
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I'm not sure where you are going with this. I don't have to prove anything to you sir. You can hit the search button if you like and go to other sites that will give in-depth pictorial information about your round counts, what broke, etc. There are many knowledgeable people out there - I took the time to post the pics of my guns and gave you my advice. Buy what you want.
I'm just calling you out on your BS and as expected you displace any responsibility on your claims about this rifle.

and..... to quote what plea for war just said....

Quote:
On the flipside, the same goes for people who mouth away about their ridiculously awesome rifles. If you claim to know why your rifle is better than everything else in the world, show some reasoning behind it rather than referencing one or two sources as the be-all-end-all of the AR-15 world. Tell us how you know what you know.


Notice how you embody that statement?

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Old 02-08-2012, 00:15   #140
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I'm just calling you out on your BS and as expected you displace any responsibility on your claims about this rifle.

and..... to quote what plea for war just said....





Notice how you embody that statement?
You are so right. You totally showed me.


You're a hero in your own basement my friend
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Disclaimer: This writer is not a lawyer. This product is meant for entertainment and fan or political fiction purposes only and writer accepts no liability. All material should be considered as infotainment only. Writer does not own any characters, topics or subject matter in this story. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is for entertainment only. If rash, irritation, redness, or swelling develops, discontinue reading immediately and consult your physician.
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