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Old 02-18-2012, 08:21   #21
vram74
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Originally Posted by 9mm +p+ View Post
Ummm, if you are in a real situation you will not hear the report, trust me.


"report"

Last edited by vram74; 02-18-2012 at 08:22..
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:28   #22
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After you fire anything 9mm or up indoors, you're going to be shut down. Caliber isn't a consideration. Anyone who thinks a .45 is going to be noticeably better is chock full of internet wisdom, not the real world kind.
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Alright guys, I understand the pro's and con's to many of the popular handgun cartridges for home defense use. However, what I don't understand is how the calibers compare in regards to sound in a home defense environment.

What I mean by that is, I have a G21 and a G17 and I prefer the 17 for home defense for 2 reasons. First being it's capacity, second being it isn't nearly as loud as a .45.

I have read many posts where people are considering a .45 Glock for their home defense needs. Yet I never read that one of their concerns is that of how loud the gun is once fired.

I've fired my 21 outside, after the first shot my left ear is ringing. If I fire 2 mags, my left ear will ring for days. That is outside. If I fired it inside, the sound would be all most twice as loud.

It doesn't seem smart to have a firearm for home defense that will cause you to go deaf after firing it.

So, after all that ranting, am I missing something here or does this just simply not occur in most people's minds?
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:31   #23
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After you fire anything 9mm or up indoors, you're going to be shut down.
What do you mean by that?
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:34   #24
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Have temporarily notably limited hearing..... And probably a bit of ringing. And you're in line to get a Christmas card from the tinnitus fairy.
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:46   #25
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Have temporarily notably limited hearing..... And probably a bit of ringing. And you're in line to get a Christmas card from the tinnitus fairy.
Oh.

Not necessarily.

At least not in my experience.

When I was a kid I grew up in NJ and shooting opportunities were limited. My buddies and I waited till my parents were gone from home and shot our shotguns inside the attached one-car garage of our house. We were curious about the ability of a duck load to penetrate an M1 steel pot {it didn't}. No temporary or otherwise loss of hearing occured.

Before I moved to RSA in '89, I had a Marlin .30-30 I was bringing with me I wanted rough zeroed as I had just put a peep rear and replacement front sight on. Stuck temprarily in NJ again...I "zeroed" it in the basement of my parent's small home at about 12 feet range into the wood pile. No problems there, either.

And a few other experiences of a similar note and strain.

LOTS of people have fired rifles and handguns inside indoor ranges without hearing protection and granted, most have insulated walls, but...

No, your hearing does not disappear instantaneously when subjected to gunfire indoors.

At least mine doesn't. Or my friends' or acquaintances. I would absolutely NOT say that is a given.
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:51   #26
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BTW: Long term or repeated expsoure to gunfire IS of course damaging to the ears, but for those of us who have shot a lot without hearing protection, I really think the issue has become somewhat clouded a bit. Overstated, really. Up till roughly WW2 many rifle competitors routinely shot THOUSANDS of rounds over a lifetime of competition without hearing protection and of course many suffered damage over time. But it took time.

But to suggest that hearing a few shots Ear Muffless guarantees hearing loss, etc, well, is stretching it.

There are circumstances where hearing loss can occur in one shot, like firing a .300 Ultra Mag inside a meat locker with the door shut, but such occurences are sort of relatively uncommon.

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Old 02-18-2012, 08:53   #27
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I've never found it to be any other way. It is far more common than otherwise. I'm not speaking of ranges, but of houses and buildings. And specifically of handguns, not rifles. That said, you and your exceptional friends would definitely be good folks to have along on a raid or training evolution, if handgun fire in a cinderblock hall or room does not significantly dampen your auditory acuity.
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Old 02-18-2012, 09:02   #28
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That said, you and your exceptional friends would definitely be good folks to have along on a raid or training evolution, if handgun fire in a cinderblock hall or room does not significantly dampen your auditory acuity.
Not hardly.

A normal conversation can be had and heard after firing quite a number of pistol rounds indoors. I really don't quite understand the "mystery" of it all being expressed here.

I used to regularly shoot my Colt Official Police .38 revolver in my basement and it was really no big deal, and when the wife called me to come to dinner I was never late.
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:10   #29
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Lumberg is correct. I don't have magic jesus ears. Don't work with anyone who does. Common pistol calibers fired indoors without pro leave most folks deafened for a minute or two to all but very loud noises. No mystery, just the way it is for most.
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:24   #30
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I don't shoot in my basement. But I did stay in a holiday inn express many times in my travels in LE and during attendance of and teaching of quite a few firearms training events over the years. Indoors, particularly in house or office type areas, close quarters pistol fire usually causes a front row rock concert style hearing dampening, much as Bill describes, for 1-5 minutes or so. Sheetrock is bad, but walls constructed of cinder block or slab concrete are worse. None of this is a concern for a home defense pistol. No more a concern than worrying about carpet staining after a shooting. Just not a presenting priority.
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I've never found it to be any other way. It is far more common than otherwise. I'm not speaking of ranges, but of houses and buildings. And specifically of handguns, not rifles. That said, you and your exceptional friends would definitely be good folks to have along on a raid or training evolution, if handgun fire in a cinderblock hall or room does not significantly dampen your auditory acuity.
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:36   #31
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What I mean by that is, I have a G21 and a G17 and I prefer the 17 for home defense for 2 reasons. First being it's capacity, second being it isn't nearly as loud as a .45.
I don't doubt that in your experience the noise generated by the G21 45ACP seems louder than the G17 9mm.

The published data I've seen is counter-intuitive:
Table 3. CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA⁽Ļ⁾

.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB
.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB

Reference:
1. Gunfire Sound Levels provided by earinc.com from data originally published by Dr. Krammer, Ph.D., Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana

Keep in mind the dB scale is logarithmic, not linear. For example, an increase of 3 dB is a doubling of the power or intensity of the sound, and an increase of 10 dB means the sound intensity is increased by a factor of 10 times which would be perceived by the human ear to be roughly twice as loud in volume.

The specific pistols used by Dr. Krammer for the results above aren't included in the reference. I haven't seen data specific to the G17 and G21. SilencerCo recorded 161.4 dB A-Weighted Average for a Springfield 1911 45ACP indoors (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt4AJM75dIU)

140 dB noise and above can cause immediate injury to almost any unprotected ear. Perceived auditory muting does occur under the stress of gunfighting (see study by Dr. Alexis Artwohl) but that doesn't lessen the risk of permanent hearing damage after repeated exposure.

There is a very interesting article with some pertinent information on this topic:

Exposure to Recreational/Occupational Shooting Range Noise vs. Industrial Impulsive Noise

I believe the general conclusion about the relative danger of exposure to impulsive noise of a firearm discharged indoors during home defense is summed up in a quote from the article:
"A single unprotected exposure to loud gunfire can result in a temporary hearing loss. However, repeated exposure to impulsive firearm noise can result in permanent noise-induced hearing loss."

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Old 02-18-2012, 11:30   #32
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I don't mean it as a concern but more along the lines of having all your senses intact as much as possible. I am not sure if firing a .45 vs a 9mm would be the difference in causing the average person to go def or not in a home defense situation. But if it is then wouldn't it be better to be able to hear your surroundings when you are in such a situation?
I wouldnít go around testing what damage is done to my ears from the sound of firing a handgun, Iíll reserve that test for when it is a matter of temporary hearing loss or loss of life.

For ranges (in or outdoors) we use double ear protection. We have taken training that involved shooting from inside a vehicle, that was louder than I expected, even with ear protection.

Iím a bit more concerned about being able to stay in the fight after being shot and seeing my own blood flowing. No, Iím not going to practice that one either; although, we have practiced handling and firing a pistol under the assumption that either hand/arm is out of commission.

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Old 02-18-2012, 12:30   #33
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Like many have said, and from my own experience if your in a "oh S#!t" shooting you wont hear much of the shot, nor will you really recall how many times you fired the weapon.As for weather short term exposure will cause permanent hearing loss that depends on where you are in reference to the muzzle and what caliber weapon is being discharged. In a land far far away while doing "Nothing" I had a fellow co-worker discharge a 50 cal above me, I was about 3ft in front and 5 feet below him when the shots (3) were fired and i have permanent hearing loss from it.. Not fun and hurt like hell!

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Old 02-18-2012, 12:57   #34
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Carry Issues

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Old 02-18-2012, 16:03   #35
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Carry Issues

Now you're talking!
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Old 02-18-2012, 16:35   #36
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Now you're talking!
"Quietly".

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Old 02-18-2012, 18:10   #37
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When one is shooting in any recreational manner (that is not on the two way range), one is foolish not to use some form of hearing protection, be that plugs, muffs, plugs & muffs, a suppressor, or some combination. All the rationalizations in the world are meaningless. It is simply stupid to shoot without hearing protection when it is an option, much like it is stupid to ride a motorcycle without a helmet or drive without a seat-belt. Being able to point out when one engaged in stupid behavior and was uninjured is not an intelligent reason to engage in further stupid behavior.
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Old 02-18-2012, 23:25   #38
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problem: guns are loud

Solution: Ar15 sbr in .300blk, suppressed, with 220gr subs. :D
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:45   #39
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Glock Talk member 3000fps posted the following video in another GT thread. It's a fascinating comparison shooting suppressed .22, 9mm, and .45 ACP caliber pistols in a home environment. I figure it's a useful addition to the topic of firearm noise in this thread comparing 9mm and 45ACP for home defense.

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Old 02-20-2012, 17:25   #40
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Pretty simply priorities in a gun fight do not include hearing protection. Now if that gun fight is scheduled well in advance I might consider bringing along my hearing protection; however, I do not know any criminals that are kind enough to call ahead.
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