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Old 02-20-2012, 09:43   #26
3/4Flap
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Originally Posted by Aquagear View Post
#1 is the area just be cautious of removing to much, I would suggest a light polish and then a test fire. It is not an expensive part but going to far will ruin it.
Correct.

#1.

And yes, don't go too far.

Again; tho it is tempting, and possibly correct to assumed the EXTRACTOR is to blame, its bearing surface inside the slide COULD be partly or wholly involved. Mod to the extractor is of course preferable to possibly ruining the frame.

It's just that there is so much we don't know about actual Glock manufacturing processes that we must work to some degree in the dark.

I also like Dave's idea of an increased-strength extractor spring. I do not see much downside to this and do see how it could help.

I also see no worldly need for the complex part that the Glock extractor is. I just don't get it. The thing looks completely over-engineered to me. It totally lacks intuitive "simplicity" that the Glock basically exhibits.
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:44   #27
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I posted a clearly elucidated hypothesis explaining erratic ejection from Glocks a few months back which fits this fix very well.

In essence, the cartridge case does not have time to fall out of position. The slide moves about 1 inch before the case hits the ejector and it travels at about 1.5fps. That lasts about 0.125 seconds and that is not time to fall enough to matter, especially since the case is held by the chamber for most of that time.

More important is the fight between the friction between case and ejector and between case and extractor. If the friction at the extractor side is weak the case will tend to be pulled out from the extractor and will tend to pivot about the ejector rather than the extractor. Rather than its C of G being rotated forward and outward it rotates backward and outward, but the outward component reduces as the case rotates. This movement is limited because the case is blocked by and impacts the breechface. Without that impact, if it could get to 45 degrees, its momentum would be directly backwards.

In what we can consider as normal extraction, by the time the case has rotated 45 degrees its C of G is just about level with the port and if it is still constrained by the extractor its momentum will be taking it directly out of the port. As the slide is still moving backwards the case will be ejected further to the right than staight to the side. In the extreme of abnormal ejection where the rotation is entirely about the ejector tip the C of G of the case, backwards at 20 or 30 derees from straight out through the port ends up with the case bouncing around in the port rather than being ejected cleanly.

As the surface the ejector impacts is inconsistent, with some places rougher than others and some places with indented writing, the grip the ejector gets will be very variable. Bouncing around in the open port is variable in itself but when we add the variable initial conditions we get wide variation in the direction of ejection leading to stove pipes, double feeds and a scater of directions, including to the left, when the case does get thrown clear.

Many suggest wearing a hat and getting used to being hit on the head and I don't think they are intending to be humerous. In fact, any erratic ejection is a serious fault because it can put the pistol out of action when you need it most. Glock should have faced a class action well before now for selling a self defence pistol which does not meet the standards required for a self defence weapon.

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Old 02-20-2012, 09:51   #28
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This ain't new stuff, either, folks.

Guess why the internal extractors of the BHP and SIG's became external?

Guess what one of the most serious weak spots in the 1911 is?

Yup.

STAR saw the problem and pretty well dealt with it in the '20's, tho QC didn't keep up with their surperb designs.

And....

The fix posted and pictured on another forum promises to be one more in a long line of attempts to deal with the Plague; Cutting down of the slide at the ejection port.......A FIX THAT HIT 1911-TYPE GUNS 30 YEARS AGO.

Getting rid of a fired case from inside a semiautomatic handgun is not as easy as spitting out a worn out dip of chew.
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:52   #29
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I tried the White Sound Defense HRED EDP assembly which uses a stronger spring and it didn't make much difference in the ejection with the original extractor that my G27 came with.
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:53   #30
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English, I agree with your thoughts. The problem is, over here in the colonies we don't understand your thought process when it is explained that concisely. You need to dumb down your way of expressing your thoughts for us.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:49   #31
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Just finished my 19 and took it into our back yard to shoot 5 quick rounds. According to my Wife, all 5 cases were in about the same consistent line to the right side. I'm Happy. No more embarrassment at the Range because I would get my football helment and gogles out. Now off to my 27. Thanks for the info!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by jw38; 02-20-2012 at 10:50..
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:01   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3/4Flap View Post
This ain't new stuff, either, folks.

Guess why the internal extractors of the BHP and SIG's became external?

Guess what one of the most serious weak spots in the 1911 is?

Yup.

STAR saw the problem and pretty well dealt with it in the '20's, tho QC didn't keep up with their surperb designs.

And....

The fix posted and pictured on another forum promises to be one more in a long line of attempts to deal with the Plague; Cutting down of the slide at the ejection port.......A FIX THAT HIT 1911-TYPE GUNS 30 YEARS AGO.

Getting rid of a fired case from inside a semiautomatic handgun is not as easy as spitting out a worn out dip of chew.
I don't think so. Guess what type of extractor my Wilson CQB has? Internal & it has 6,200 rounds without a malfunction. My Uzi also has an internal spring-steel extractor & even looks exactly like a 1911 extractor. More than 28,000 rounds without a malfunction & it's the original part.

I think it's a design & quality control issue.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:14   #33
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Let's see here, how did that Kimber external extractor 1911 fix thing go?
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:37   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jw38 View Post
Just finished my 19 and took it into our back yard to shoot 5 quick rounds. According to my Wife, all 5 cases were in about the same consistent line to the right side. I'm Happy. No more embarrassment at the Range because I would get my football helment and gogles out. Now off to my 27. Thanks for the info!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Did you get it to work by cleaning up the extractor?
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:40   #35
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Maybe we need a sticky for

"Glock FLUFF AND BUFF"
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:51   #36
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Did you get it to work by cleaning up the extractor?
Little of both - follow Dave's post here. As I look at the extractor in the frame - I lightly sanded the top and bottom sides. Turned extractor over, sanded "shelfs" A&B. On the Claw itself, I took a small stone to clean up the ends that wrap over the case. Good, cleaning, lube and reassemble. Like another Post said, someone needs to be charging Glock for this fix. This fix is better than sliced bread.
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:02   #37
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Let's see here, how did that Kimber external extractor 1911 fix thing go?
Don't know about Kimber but the S&W 1911s seem to work without problems and using the grip safety to lift the firing pin block instead of the trigger is a nice improvement. You have to wonder what Colt was doing all those years!

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Old 02-20-2012, 12:10   #38
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As a glock armorer, I would definitely be inclined to do this. I'm not the typical "part replacer" that was mentioned earlier in the thread. I was literally upstairs putting together a long range precision rifle I am building. I was just fitting the action to a bottom metal.

Anyways, it seems as though (I for one dont have any issues with any of my glocks and never had) that a light polish of the extractor will happen with use. So, I for one don't see an issue with polishing it but, it may shorten its life depending how much you remove. When we are talking 1000ths of an inch between working 100% and having erratic ejection, I'd just say be careful. A little will probably go a long way in terms of getting where you want it to be.

If your ejection is all over the place and you already replaced the extractor/ejector/rsa/ whatever else is said to be causing it. A little fine tune polish certainly couldn't hurt. I would do mine but, my glocks fire great, eject great, and work like glock perfection should. Maybe its my hand loads (wait did I just say that out loud)
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:10   #39
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English, I agree with your thoughts. The problem is, over here in the colonies we don't understand your thought process when it is explained that concisely. You need to dumb down your way of expressing your thoughts for us.
Another 2 to 300 years of evolution should do it. http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/s...nsupergrin.gif

Actually, some things have a limit to how far you can dumb them down. I am not in a position to work on this problem practically and none of my Glocks have this problem. I am fairly sure that your solution is correct. If the movement of the extractor to grip the rim is blocked by this shoulder before it is pressing on the rim, then a stronger spring won't help.

English

Last edited by English; 02-20-2012 at 12:12.. Reason: supergrin not working
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:20   #40
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Another 2 to 300 years of evolution should do it. http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/s...nsupergrin.gif

Actually, some things have a limit to how far you can dumb them down. I am not in a position to work on this problem practically and none of my Glocks have this problem. I am fairly sure that your solution is correct. If the movement of the extractor to grip the rim is blocked by this shoulder before it is pressing on the rim, then a stronger spring won't help.

English

Agreed. But removing enough metal to get better and more complete contact with the case head and adding a slightly stronger spring should.
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:44   #41
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Quote:
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Agreed. But removing enough metal to get better and more complete contact with the case head and adding a slightly stronger spring should.
Dave I think you are right on this. The extractor needs to hold the casing firmly against the breach face in order for it to contact the ejector correctly. Before I did the work on mine if you placed an empty case against the breach face it would start to slide off at an angle the on ejector side. If the contact area on the rim is always changing the ejection pattern will be all over the place. Better rim contact and a firmer spring should help consistency.
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Old 02-20-2012, 15:43   #42
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Are heavier/stronger springs available?
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Old 02-20-2012, 16:00   #43
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Don't you just love it when a plan comes together? I got out my G27, which ejects perfectly and my G30SF that is doing better. I took them both apart and placed a round of the proper caliber under the claw of each ejector and examined them both very closely with the stronger of my 2 pairs of reading glasses and a bright flashlight. Then I once again removed the extractor from the G30SF and did a bit more polishing and put it back together. I loaded 5 rounds in a magazine and went outside (Ilive in the country on 50 acres). I fired the 5 rounds and they all ejected into a very small area to my right rear. Yippee, they didn't go over my head like last time. Over my head without contacting me is an improvement. Going to the right rear instead, is even more of an improvement. The most honest advice I can give any of you is, examine a gun which ejects perfectly under bright light and with even a small amount of magnification if possible. Then do the same thing with the gun which is giving trouble. Very carefully notice any differences in the way the extractor contacts the case head and then do whatever is necessary to make the problem pistol contact the casehead in the same manner as the pistol which gives no problems. Once this achieved, I would expect your problems to be gone. This kind of practice should be done carefully with hand tools. Should you do this properly you will begin to have an appreciation for what a real gunsmith does and why his work isn't free.

Last edited by Dave Nowlin; 02-20-2012 at 16:02..
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Old 02-20-2012, 16:03   #44
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I have not touched the extractor yet. I took the slide off my Glock 19 Gen 3 Serial #SCZ### and removed the recoil spring and the barrel. Now I have placed a empty case in under the extractor up to where the brass mark is on the breachface. Looking through the slide and using the underside of a lampshade with the light on, the claw is holding the brass in place. The extractor claw is about even with the angle part of the brass.
Is this how the extractor is on the guns that are working?
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Old 02-20-2012, 16:15   #45
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I took some off the #1 position, looking at the wear pattern indicated it was hitting the frame and needed to be filed down. Also smoothed the flat sides, my G27 is ejecting nicely.
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Old 02-20-2012, 16:23   #46
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It is hard to paint a word picture that can properly explain what must be done. That is why after thinking about this a bit I decided to compare a gun which wasn't working perfectly with one which was. I wanted to see for myself what differences I could see. Once I had done this I proceeded with caution. I am more than pleased with the results. Any time you take on a project like this you must first ask yourself a couple of things (1) how handy am I with delicate hand tools? (2) how mechanically inclined am I? (3) Am I confident enough in my own ability to take general instructions, fit them to my situation and work out the details?
You must understand that any time you work on your own firearm, you assume all of the liability. In projects such as this no one can give you precise instructions that will work with every pistol. I'm afraid that the quality control variations with these pistols don't allow precise instructions. These parts aren't precisely made on CNC machines to super close tolerances. If that info makes you uncomfortable working on your own pistol. Then don't do it.
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Old 02-20-2012, 18:33   #47
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Any change in the physics of the extraction will affect the trajectory of the expended case.

Certainly polishing or changing the contact areas of the extractor can be one answer. But it may just be a simple problem with the type of ammo you generally shoot with-- and not with higher potency SD ammo.

Other options: change to a different rate recoil spring, or change ejector (40 ejector will work for both 9mm and 40).

Wear a hat at the range, keep your shirt buttoned, and carry +p ammo.
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Old 02-21-2012, 04:38   #48
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Any change in the physics of the extraction will affect the trajectory of the expended case.

Certainly polishing or changing the contact areas of the extractor can be one answer. But it may just be a simple problem with the type of ammo you generally shoot with-- and not with higher potency SD ammo.

Other options: change to a different rate recoil spring, or change ejector (40 ejector will work for both 9mm and 40).

Wear a hat at the range, keep your shirt buttoned, and carry +p ammo.
But first it needs to be doing approximately what it should be doing. If the extractor is not gripping the case well enough to stop the ejector pulling it out of engagement, it can't do that.

If the ejection pattern is significantly erratic there IS a fault with the pistol which higher power cartridges will not solve and which could cause a stoppage at a critical moment.

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Old 02-21-2012, 06:03   #49
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Any change in the physics of the extraction will affect the trajectory of the expended case.

Certainly polishing or changing the contact areas of the extractor can be one answer. But it may just be a simple problem with the type of ammo you generally shoot with-- and not with higher potency SD ammo.

Other options: change to a different rate recoil spring, or change ejector (40 ejector will work for both 9mm and 40).

Wear a hat at the range, keep your shirt buttoned, and carry +p ammo.

Basically; No.

Use a different gun for example. Once upon a time I had a large collection of Finnish Mosin-Nagant rifles. The extractor on the M-N can depending on manufacture seat slightly too far forward for a tight grip of the case. I had one that was not functioning properly in this regard. However, if you just yank the bolt back ridiculously hard, the case will come out and be ejected. However, if you worked the bolt slowly or "normally" the case ...might...fall off the extractor.

What you are recommending in effect is that. Yank the bolt back super hard.

That is no solution.

A 9x19 should function properly with all normal ammo. I've demonstrated numerous time that 115/1100 IS normal ammo in the 9x19. So is 124/1075. That is historically the loads that were very common in 9x19 manufacture. To suggest that "shooting heavier ammo" is the fix for a 9x19 today should not be the path followed.

For one thing, the old Gen 3's did just fine thank you will all ammo from lighter loads to +P. They and the Gen 4's should now, too.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:08   #50
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Wow - you guys sure put a lot of effort into this. Somebody order a 15 lb ISMI recoil spring from Midway or Brownells and let us know how surprisingly easy it is to fix your ejection problems with no permanent gun mods.
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