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Old 10-31-2011, 20:51   #326
Wolf Spyder
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I have a few pictures to add.

10mm Reloading Forum

The 9mm Hornady Critical Defense opened to 1/2 an inch, which is pretty good for the 9mm. However, in trying to copy the work of 21Carrier I have come across a very nice handload using 800-X and 165 grain Gold Dots. Out of my stock 4.6 inch Glock barrel at 10 feet the 10.4 grains of 800-X and a 165 grain Gold Dot expanded to 1.291 of an inch. Did you catch that...? It trippled in size !!! Lets see you .45 ACP fan boys copy that.



10mm Reloading Forum

A nice close up of the 165 grain 10mm Speer Gold Dot expanded to 1.200" when using 10.2 grains of 800-X and a stock Glock 20 barrel.


10mm Reloading Forum

Showing a rear view of both Gold Dot's. At 10.6 the Gold Dot is over driven and comes apart from the stock Glock barrel. I would like to say that both the 10.2 and 10.4 Gold Dots stopped in the second water jug. The energy transfer to the first water just was over whelming, to say the least. I have been shooting water jugs for a while now but these loads are explosive!!






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Old 11-01-2011, 15:18   #327
21Carrier
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Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
Carrier, did you ever determine the approximate velocity for this test?
I haven't tested them yet. I keep forgetting that I need to chronograph the 180gr XTP loads. I haven't even bought any 180gr XTPs in several months. I'll get some this week and test it. I would guess around 1050-1100fps for that load. It showed nice controlled expansion, but if I had to use one in anger, I'd want it going much faster.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Spyder View Post
I have a few pictures to add.

10mm Reloading Forum

The 9mm Hornady Critical Defense opened to 1/2 an inch, which is pretty good for the 9mm. However, in trying to copy the work of 21Carrier I have come across a very nice handload using 800-X and 165 grain Gold Dots. Out of my stock 4.6 inch Glock barrel at 10 feet the 10.4 grains of 800-X and a 165 grain Gold Dot expanded to 1.291 of an inch. Did you catch that...? It trippled in size !!! Lets see you .45 ACP fan boys copy that.



10mm Reloading Forum

A nice close up of the 165 grain 10mm Speer Gold Dot expanded to 1.200" when using 10.2 grains of 800-X and a stock Glock 20 barrel.


10mm Reloading Forum

Showing a rear view of both Gold Dot's. At 10.6 the Gold Dot is over driven and comes apart from the stock Glock barrel. I would like to say that both the 10.2 and 10.4 Gold Dots stopped in the second water jug. The energy transfer to the first water just was over whelming, to say the least. I have been shooting water jugs for a while now but these loads are explosive!!
Nice stuff, Wolf. That looks very similar to what I've gotten. If you back that load off a little more (get them to about 1325-1350fps), they will look like perfect stars, and not come apart. The 165gr Gold Dots seem to start coming apart right around 1375fps. However, you can't really argue with right at 1.3" of expansion.
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Old 11-02-2011, 15:55   #328
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I don't post on forums much but I must chime in to say, excellent job 21Carrier, thank you very much for posting all the pictures and information!

Excellent!
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:51   #329
Andrew Wiggin
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Great work, 21! I was directed here from another forum and it took me a couple days to read through all the excellent data and analysis in this thread. Thanks for all your hard work.

If I'm interpreting your results correctly, it looks like 155gr Gold Dots are probably best suited for defense against people and 200gr XTPs look most appropriate for four legged critters in AZ. I can't wait to start working up some loads.
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:50   #330
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
Great work, 21! I was directed here from another forum and it took me a couple days to read through all the excellent data and analysis in this thread. Thanks for all your hard work.

If I'm interpreting your results correctly, it looks like 155gr Gold Dots are probably best suited for defense against people and 200gr XTPs look most appropriate for four legged critters in AZ. I can't wait to start working up some loads.
Sorry it took me a while to respond. I've been so busy lately. I would agree with your statement, for the most part. For four-legged AZ critters, the 200gr XTP appears to offer more than enough penetration with the additional wounding capacity of a hollow point. If anything more than a few hundred pounds might get in your way, the 200gr WFNGC, and its FEET of penetration would be best. For humans, the choice gets so difficult. I would certainly agree that the 155gr Gold Dot is impressive, and among the best. However, there are so many that would do the job quite well. The cool thing is that with all of this information, you can really tailor the bullet and load to suit your needs. If over-penetration absolutely cannot be tolerated, the 135gr bullets would be the best bet. If you need good penetration, less recoil, and unfailing expansion, the 125gr Barnes TAC-XP would be hard to beat.

The truth is that almost ANY of these bullets would work very well against a human. I lean towards the 135gr Nosler/Sierra JHPs because they are just so devastating. However, I really like the 125gr Barnes TAC-XP and 155gr Gold Dots, too. If I lived in a colder climate, and heavy clothing was a sure thing, I would likely carry the Barnes. The massive cavity and it's unique shape should virtually assure it will never clog. It should open no matter what. Also, because it's all-copper, the necessary amount of penetration seems to be directly related to velocity. Unlike jacketed lead projectiles, which can actually penetrate LESS with more velocity (due to over-expansion), it always opens the same, and more velocity should almost always equal more penetration (I'll test this in more detail soon).

Whatever bullet we all choose, I'm just happy to have been a part of something that has helped a lot of us learn about our favorite hobby. It really has been a lot of fun, and I promise I'm not done yet. I'm hoping to get back to more tests within the month. I still have several new bullets to test, a few I want to retest at higher velocity, and even more to buy. I just have to find the time to do it all. Anyway, I'm glad you and others have enjoyed it, and I'll try to get back to at least 2 new tests per month. I wish I could return to doing about 2 per week, but I just don't have the time anymore. Just pouring the tubes takes about an entire day or night. As soon as I get the tubes ready, I'll post details about what I'll be testing and when.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 12-21-2011 at 02:51..
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Old 12-27-2011, 14:10   #331
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bonded golden sabers

I was looking at your earlier golden saber test as I pondered Underwood's offering. When asked, Kevin said the 10 mm golden saber is bonded.

I'm curious as to how this would respond to your testing.
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Old 12-28-2011, 00:09   #332
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Originally Posted by deadandgone View Post
I was looking at your earlier golden saber test as I pondered Underwood's offering. When asked, Kevin said the 10 mm golden saber is bonded.

I'm curious as to how this would respond to your testing.
If he uses the bonded Golden Sabers, that would be a MUCH better bullet at 10mm velocity. The biggest problem with the original Golden Sabers was jacket separation. I've heard that issue repeated MANY times, and in more calibers than just .400". It seems like it was a genuine issue. Bonding should help tremendously. If I can get ahold of some bonded GSHPs, I'll test them.

Last edited by 21Carrier; 12-28-2011 at 00:10..
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Old 02-15-2012, 10:59   #333
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expansion test methods...

In my tests I have used a heavy plastic cat litter containers with mortar mix inside. I surrounded the container with the roofing material you can get a Lowes or Home Depot that is roughly a foot wide and comes in a 25' roll that has an adhesive backing...mostly used in colder climates for frost barrier. It basically kept the plastic from shattering upon impact. Once you fire you rounds you can dump the mix into a pan and sift out the rounds for inspection, put the mix back in and shot another type of round...over and over...
The mix prevented the round from penetrating through and gives it a good impression of how the round would expand in a human body...
I used a Glock 22 and got the best results with Winchester Ranger 165 gr Bonded JHP LE RA40BA which showed the best expansion and ability to keep a nice petal shape.

Last edited by steinerrw; 02-15-2012 at 14:04.. Reason: typo
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Old 02-15-2012, 17:10   #334
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Quote:
Unlike jacketed lead projectiles, which can actually penetrate LESS with more velocity (due to over-expansion), it always opens the same, and more velocity should almost always equal more penetration (I'll test this in more detail soon).
awaiting results!
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Old 03-06-2012, 09:32   #335
Andrew Wiggin
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This has been an excellent resource in working up loads for my Witness. It has given me a good place to start, at least. I'll be using 155gr GDHPs starting at 9.0 grains 800-x and hope to get them over a chrono and into some water jugs tomorrow. I'll come back and post results.

Still, it would be helpful to have all this great data condensed into the OP for easy reference.
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Old 03-08-2012, 11:55   #336
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All velocity testing was done with 155gr GDHP and IMR 800X at the about six feet from the muzzle with an EAA Witness. The water was shot at about 20' or so. I did not have enough of the Buffalo Bore to shoot it over the chrono but others have confirmed their velocity claims of 1,350fps to be very close to actual. Because there was much less velocity gain going from 10.5gr to 11.0gr I decided to stick with 10.5gr as my defense load for now.

9.0gr:
1,179fps
1,146
1,192
1,152
1,161

9.5gr:
1,260fps
1,217
1,206
1,208
1,237

10.0gr
1,269fps
1,285
1,284
1,315
1,265

10.5gr
1,362fps
1,374
1,391
1,374
1,361

11.0gr

1,392fps
1,365
1,439
1,377
1,413

Buffalo Bore (MT Gold bullet)

10mm Reloading Forum


Holy textbook perfect expansion, Batman!

10mm Reloading Forum

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Last edited by Andrew Wiggin; 03-08-2012 at 11:58..
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Old 03-08-2012, 19:14   #337
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Nice, good data there.
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