[vkscott]

Originally Posted by Warp

If by "picked up" you mean "purchased", you are fueling the fire and supporting the media turning something like this into such a big deal while ignoring those other problems

Yes purchased and how did you come to that assumption? Do you know me, do you know what my thoughts are, what I support and don't support, I highly doubt it. So when that high horse of yours stops trotting, get off of it. I firmly believe, based on what I have read and heard that Z was 100% justified in using lethal force. I don't believe for a minute that he expected the night to end that way, but that is something he will have to deal with for the rest of his life. My point, in case you missed it sir, is that what happened in Florida that night, while tragic, is not an American tragedy.

[RussP]

Folks, we've come a long way in this thread. Let's not lose the civility that got us here.

Thanks...

[RussP]

Originally Posted by jdavionic

I am also closing in on 50 and had similar experiences growing up. While I agree with the sentiment, it's unfortunate that you cannot be immune to "their" environment that they have created. We all suffer what we've evolved to become.

The part in bold, what do you mean?

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by Fred Hansen

Fair enough.

Oh and Fred, I understand what you meant as well.

.

[vkscott]

Originally Posted by RussP

Folks, we've come a long way in this thread. Let's not lose the civility that got us here.

Thanks...

Point taken, apologies extended

[jdavionic]

Originally Posted by RussP

The part in bold, what do you mean?

Since you're the "mod" and may somehow misinterpret, I mean that simply because you want to live your life a certain way, it doesn't mean that you're immune to how others live theirs and how the government runs theirs and yours.

[Fred Hansen]

Originally Posted by Misty02

Oh and Fred, I understand what you meant as well.

.

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by RussP

The part in bold, what do you mean?

I can’t speak for jdavionic, but I took it to mean that society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in, we can’t divorce ourselves from it and are not immune to its side effects. A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims. A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being. A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.

At times people don’t help one another because if something goes wrong they’ll be left to hang alone, they and their families will be destroyed. Supposedly Zimmerman helped many people in the past; it is now that a couple have added a line or two to news articles. I’m not saying I agree with what he did, but hope the people he cared about are at least offering some support behind the scenes. There are a few of his 911 calls in youtube, he even called when kids were playing on the street and at risk of getting hit by passing vehicles. In that particular call he was asked about the race of the kids again, they were of a variety of races. That was among the last 6 calls that were counted against him in the media to attempt to prove he was a racist.

.

[jdavionic]

Originally Posted by Misty02

I can’t speak for jdavionic, but I took it to mean that society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in, we can’t divorce ourselves from it and are not immune to its side effects. A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims. A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being. A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.

Exactly!

[RussP]

Originally Posted by Misty02

I can’t speak for jdavionic, but I took it to mean that society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in, we can’t divorce ourselves from it and are not immune to its side effects. A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims. A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being. A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.

At times people don’t help one another because if something goes wrong they’ll be left to hang alone, they and their families will be destroyed. Supposedly Zimmerman helped many people in the past; it is now that a couple have added a line or two to news articles. I’m not saying I agree with what he did, but hope the people he cared about are at least offering some support behind the scenes. There are a few of his 911 calls in youtube, he even called when kids were playing on the street and at risk of getting hit by passing vehicles. In that particular call he was asked about the race of the kids again, they were of a variety of races. That was among the last 6 calls that were counted against him in the media to attempt to prove he was a racist.

.

Thanks, Misty...a very good expansion on the topic.

[janice6]

Originally Posted by Warp

Okay, I'll bite...aware me as to how the family is responsible for "making him shoot the kid"

I was going to let this go since I was expressing sarcasm, but you seem to want to make it an arguing point.

in the interest of accuracy I'll explain it to you.

SARCASM.......

[RussP]

Originally Posted by jdavionic

Since you're the "mod" and may somehow misinterpret,

And that is why I asked the question.

Originally Posted by jdavionic

I mean that simply because you want to live your life a certain way, it doesn't mean that you're immune to how others live theirs and how the government runs theirs and yours.

Thank you...

[jdavionic]

Originally Posted by RussP

And that is why I asked the question. Thank you...

Not sure how you could have misinterpreted it, but okay.

[RussP]

Originally Posted by jdavionic

Not sure how you could have misinterpreted it, but okay.

Where did I make a statement about your post that showed I misinterpreted what you said?

I posted a simple question asking for clarification before commenting..

[jdavionic]

Originally Posted by RussP

Where did I make a statement about your post that showed I misinterpreted what you said?

I posted a simple question asking for clarification before commenting..

Of course...you're right.

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by RussP

Thanks, Misty...a very good expansion on the topic.

It kind of follows my original comment that Fred commented on, which is the one jdavionic was commenting on. Fred mentioned the old ways as being better (which I think we all agree with). The only thing I would have changed in jdavionic’s comment would be “our” in lieu “their”. Whether by active participation in getting to where we are today or by our silence and allowing it to happen, we are all at fault. Teachers that attempt to correct our children’s behavior and moral compass are punished for overstepping their bounds, neighbors that do it are told to mind their business, the same with strangers that may merely offer a suggestion on curving inappropriate behavior.

When I was a kid, had I said anything other than “I’m sorry” to an adult that told me what I was doing/saying was wrong in front of my mother, she would have back-handed me into the next kingdom. Even if the adult was wrong, we couldn’t disrespect them; we had to stop doing whatever was bothering the adult and allow my mother to deal with them if they were out of line (and we couldn’t resume what we were doing unless she said it was ok), but God help us if we tried to do it ourselves.

Things have changed to the point where there is no common sense any more. A parent would be arrested, charged and convicted of a felony for spanking a child on the tush and then have their children taken away:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qu2xasJ4yU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qu2xasJ4yU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qu2xasJ4yU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qu2xasJ4yU

We should have form protests around the country when this happened and demanded the government back off, but we didn’t. Our inaction will allow the courts to do this again and make parents think twice when attempting to discipline their children; the same ones we later complain are preying on society because they are out of control.


.

[RussP]

For context, here is the whole conversation...

Originally Posted by Bren

I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.

Originally Posted by jdavionic

I am also closing in on 50 and had similar experiences growing up. While I agree with the sentiment, it's unfortunate that you cannot be immune to "their" environment that they have created. We all suffer what we've evolved to become.

• We want to live your life a certain way
  
  
• We're not immune to how others live theirs
  
  
• We're not immune to how the government runs theirs and ours.

That's very good and very true.

Originally Posted by Misty02

I can’t speak for jdavionic, but I took it to mean that society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in, we can’t divorce ourselves from it and are not immune to its side effects. A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims. A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being. A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.

At times people don’t help one another because if something goes wrong they’ll be left to hang alone, they and their families will be destroyed. Supposedly Zimmerman helped many people in the past; it is now that a couple have added a line or two to news articles. I’m not saying I agree with what he did, but hope the people he cared about are at least offering some support behind the scenes. There are a few of his 911 calls in youtube, he even called when kids were playing on the street and at risk of getting hit by passing vehicles. In that particular call he was asked about the race of the kids again, they were of a variety of races. That was among the last 6 calls that were counted against him in the media to attempt to prove he was a racist.

.

• Society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in
  
  
• We can’t divorce ourselves from it
  
  
• We are not immune to its side effects.
  
  
  • A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims.
    
    
  • A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being.
    
    
  • A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.
  
  
• At times people don’t help one another because if something goes wrong
  
  
  • they’ll be left to hang alone,
    
    
  • they and their families will be destroyed.

jdavionic, Misty, these are facts, not just opinions, real facts about where we are, that everyone, not just everyone who carries, but really everyone can use in deciding what role they individually and collectively will play in today's society.

That, jdavionic, is why I asked the question.

[Southswede]

Originally Posted by Misty02

It is actually a matter of life and death, likely your own. Is any property (yours or others) worth your life? Zimmerman got lucky!

.

Where do YOU draw the line then?

I think the correct question is: does someone else think my property dying for?

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by Southswede

Where do YOU draw the line then?

I think the correct question is: does someone else think my property dying for?

That is a good question. I have spent as much time training with my firearm, reading the statutes, and some case law as I have spent mentally and emotionally preparing myself for an event I pray never takes place. That preparation has taken me beyond the use and legalities of weapons and into prevention, avoidance and de-escalation of possible conflicts to reduce the possibility of ever needing to use my firearm.

Each of us has to determine where that line is. As an example, Bren and I have drawn that line in different places. I don’t believe either of us is wrong or right. Each of us has taken into consideration our level of experience and various skills to determine where our breaking point is. I have little doubt that his hand to hand (H2H) skills allow him to stand his ground successfully in many areas where the use of a firearm is neither legal nor appropriate. I, on the other hand, am a middle aged woman with little to no experience in H2H; obviously I’m going to do everything in my power to avoid such situations.

I believe it is important to objectively know yourself, your capabilities, your skill level and then proceed accordingly. I believe that is an area where Zimmerman failed. One thing is to address trouble that comes to you the best way you can because you can’t escape it, quite another to follow a person that you know nothing about. He didn’t know if Martin was a criminal in the prowl, if he was armed, what his H2H skill level was or if he was alone. He was in over his head and didn’t take a second to think of the consequences. He may have had good intentions in keeping an eye on Martin until police arrived but it is obvious his plan didn’t work out quite as he thought. He either overestimated himself or underestimated his opponent, either could be deadly.

May I turn the question back to you? Based on your skills, physical condition and knowledge, do you believe you have the capability to successfully follow someone because there have been break-ins in your neighborhood and you wish to prevent another? Would the property of your neighbor, or yours, be worth the risk? Can you handle what would likely come your way? The answer for you may be yes. For me is no, and sadly, there are likely more people on my side of the fence than on the opposite one.


.

[steveksux]

Originally Posted by Southswede

Where do YOU draw the line then?

I think the correct question is: does someone else think my property dying for?

If I may, the "someone else" who's opinion everyone should REALLY be worried about is the local prosecutor. He's the one that will decide to file charges if he thinks your property is not worth someone else dying for.

Randy

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by steveksux

If I may, the "someone else" who's opinion everyone should REALLY be worried about is the local prosecutor. He's the one that will decide to file charges if he thinks your property is not worth someone else dying for.

Randy

May I add: something you only need to worry about if you survive the encounter.

.

[steveksux]

Originally Posted by Misty02

May I add: something you only need to worry about if you survive the encounter.

.

Then you shot in defense of life, not property...

I always say, when I'm more afraid of what the guy in front of me is going to do to me in the next 7 seconds than I am of what my cellmate will do to me in the next 7 years... time to hesitate is over. as long as I'm reasonable, its a good shoot and I shouldn't have to worry about the 7 years.

Randy

[Misty02]

Originally Posted by steveksux

Then you shot in defense of life, not property...

I always say, when I'm more afraid of what the guy in front of me is going to do to me in the next 7 seconds than I am of what my cellmate will do to me in the next 7 years... time to hesitate is over. as long as I'm reasonable, its a good shoot and I shouldn't have to worry about the 7 years.

Randy

Got ya!!!

I'm quite dense at times.

.

[vkscott]

Originally Posted by Misty02

It kind of follows my original comment that Fred commented on, which is the one jdavionic was commenting on. Fred mentioned the old ways as being better (which I think we all agree with). The only thing I would have changed in jdavionic’s comment would be “our” in lieu “their”. Whether by active participation in getting to where we are today or by our silence and allowing it to happen, we are all at fault. Teachers that attempt to correct our children’s behavior and moral compass are punished for overstepping their bounds, neighbors that do it are told to mind their business, the same with strangers that may merely offer a suggestion on curving inappropriate behavior.

When I was a kid, had I said anything other than “I’m sorry” to an adult that told me what I was doing/saying was wrong in front of my mother, she would have back-handed me into the next kingdom. Even if the adult was wrong, we couldn’t disrespect them; we had to stop doing whatever was bothering the adult and allow my mother to deal with them if they were out of line (and we couldn’t resume what we were doing unless she said it was ok), but God help us if we tried to do it ourselves.

Things have changed to the point where there is no common sense any more. A parent would be arrested, charged and convicted of a felony for spanking a child on the tush and then have their children taken away: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qu2xasJ4yU We should have form protests around the country when this happened and demanded the government back off, but we didn’t. Our inaction will allow the courts to do this again and make parents think twice when attempting to discipline their children; the same ones we later complain are preying on society because they are out of control.


.

Good thing I watched the video before I posted. I was going to post that in TX, the penal code section 9.61 states:

§ 9.61. PARENT-CHILD. (a) The use of force, but not
deadly force, against a child younger than 18 years is justified:
(1) if the actor is the child's parent or stepparent or
is acting in loco parentis to the child; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably
believes the force is necessary to discipline the child or to
safeguard or promote his welfare.
(b) For purposes of this section, "in loco parentis"
includes grandparent and guardian, any person acting by, through,
or under the direction of a court with jurisdiction over the child,
and anyone who has express or implied consent of the parent or
parents.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.


But the judge was out of Corpus Christi, TX. I wonder if there was more to the evidence than the media released (that would never happen, would it ). BTW, I spank my kids when they need it.

[SCmasterblaster]

52 pages - has everything been discussed?