GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-05-2012, 20:54   #1281
jdavionic
NRA Member
 
jdavionic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
The part in bold, what do you mean?
Since you're the "mod" and may somehow misinterpret, I mean that simply because you want to live your life a certain way, it doesn't mean that you're immune to how others live theirs and how the government runs theirs and yours.
__________________
- JD

"No matter how bad it gets, if you're still alive it's just another bad day."
jdavionic is offline  
Old 04-05-2012, 21:00   #1282
Fred Hansen
Liberal Bane
 
Fred Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 16,118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
Oh and Fred, I understand what you meant as well.

.
__________________
When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. - George Santayana
Fred Hansen is offline  
Old 04-05-2012, 21:08   #1283
Misty02
Senior Member
 
Misty02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
The part in bold, what do you mean?
I canít speak for jdavionic, but I took it to mean that society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in, we canít divorce ourselves from it and are not immune to its side effects. A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims. A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being. A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.

At times people donít help one another because if something goes wrong theyíll be left to hang alone, they and their families will be destroyed. Supposedly Zimmerman helped many people in the past; it is now that a couple have added a line or two to news articles. Iím not saying I agree with what he did, but hope the people he cared about are at least offering some support behind the scenes. There are a few of his 911 calls in youtube, he even called when kids were playing on the street and at risk of getting hit by passing vehicles. In that particular call he was asked about the race of the kids again, they were of a variety of races. That was among the last 6 calls that were counted against him in the media to attempt to prove he was a racist.

.
__________________


"In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them." - Sun Tzu

Outpost Member #69
Misty02 is offline  
Old 04-05-2012, 21:13   #1284
jdavionic
NRA Member
 
jdavionic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
I canít speak for jdavionic, but I took it to mean that society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in, we canít divorce ourselves from it and are not immune to its side effects. A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims. A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being. A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.
Exactly!
__________________
- JD

"No matter how bad it gets, if you're still alive it's just another bad day."
jdavionic is offline  
Old 04-05-2012, 21:26   #1285
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 44,207
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
I canít speak for jdavionic, but I took it to mean that society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in, we canít divorce ourselves from it and are not immune to its side effects. A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims. A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being. A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.

At times people donít help one another because if something goes wrong theyíll be left to hang alone, they and their families will be destroyed. Supposedly Zimmerman helped many people in the past; it is now that a couple have added a line or two to news articles. Iím not saying I agree with what he did, but hope the people he cared about are at least offering some support behind the scenes. There are a few of his 911 calls in youtube, he even called when kids were playing on the street and at risk of getting hit by passing vehicles. In that particular call he was asked about the race of the kids again, they were of a variety of races. That was among the last 6 calls that were counted against him in the media to attempt to prove he was a racist.

.
Thanks, Misty...a very good expansion on the topic.
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 04-05-2012, 21:29   #1286
janice6
Platinum Membership
NRA
 
janice6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: minnesota
Posts: 18,840


Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Okay, I'll bite...aware me as to how the family is responsible for "making him shoot the kid"

I was going to let this go since I was expressing sarcasm, but you seem to want to make it an arguing point.

in the interest of accuracy I'll explain it to you.

SARCASM.......
__________________
janice6

"Peace is that brief, glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". Anonymous

Earp: Not everyone who knows you hates you.
DOC: I know it ain't always easy bein' my friend....but I'll BE THERE when you need me.
janice6 is offline  
Old 04-05-2012, 21:29   #1287
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 44,207
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdavionic View Post
Since you're the "mod" and may somehow misinterpret,
And that is why I asked the question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdavionic View Post
I mean that simply because you want to live your life a certain way, it doesn't mean that you're immune to how others live theirs and how the government runs theirs and yours.
Thank you...
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 04-05-2012, 21:39   #1288
jdavionic
NRA Member
 
jdavionic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
And that is why I asked the question. Thank you...
Not sure how you could have misinterpreted it, but okay.
__________________
- JD

"No matter how bad it gets, if you're still alive it's just another bad day."
jdavionic is offline  
Old 04-05-2012, 21:48   #1289
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 44,207
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdavionic View Post
Not sure how you could have misinterpreted it, but okay.
Where did I make a statement about your post that showed I misinterpreted what you said?

I posted a simple question asking for clarification before commenting..
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 04-05-2012, 21:50   #1290
jdavionic
NRA Member
 
jdavionic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Where did I make a statement about your post that showed I misinterpreted what you said?

I posted a simple question asking for clarification before commenting..
Of course...you're right.
__________________
- JD

"No matter how bad it gets, if you're still alive it's just another bad day."
jdavionic is offline  
Old 04-06-2012, 06:38   #1291
Misty02
Senior Member
 
Misty02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Thanks, Misty...a very good expansion on the topic.
It kind of follows my original comment that Fred commented on, which is the one jdavionic was commenting on. Fred mentioned the old ways as being better (which I think we all agree with). The only thing I would have changed in jdavionicís comment would be ďourĒ in lieu ďtheirĒ. Whether by active participation in getting to where we are today or by our silence and allowing it to happen, we are all at fault. Teachers that attempt to correct our childrenís behavior and moral compass are punished for overstepping their bounds, neighbors that do it are told to mind their business, the same with strangers that may merely offer a suggestion on curving inappropriate behavior.

When I was a kid, had I said anything other than ďIím sorryĒ to an adult that told me what I was doing/saying was wrong in front of my mother, she would have back-handed me into the next kingdom. Even if the adult was wrong, we couldnít disrespect them; we had to stop doing whatever was bothering the adult and allow my mother to deal with them if they were out of line (and we couldnít resume what we were doing unless she said it was ok), but God help us if we tried to do it ourselves.

Things have changed to the point where there is no common sense any more. A parent would be arrested, charged and convicted of a felony for spanking a child on the tush and then have their children taken away:
We should have form protests around the country when this happened and demanded the government back off, but we didnít. Our inaction will allow the courts to do this again and make parents think twice when attempting to discipline their children; the same ones we later complain are preying on society because they are out of control.


.
__________________


"In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them." - Sun Tzu

Outpost Member #69
Misty02 is offline  
Old 04-06-2012, 06:54   #1292
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 44,207
Blog Entries: 64
For context, here is the whole conversation...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I consider just the principle of not letting others mess with my stuff to be well worth risking my life for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
We can agree to disagree on that one. Nothing I own is that valuable.

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Hansen View Post
He isn't talking about the value of the property. He's talking about a very important principle. A principle that has repercussions far beyond the value of his possessions, no matter what they may be.

The principle of holding people accountable for their actions through one's own vigilance and willingness to act, is something that has almost become extinct. And we have whole areas of our country where the streets are crawling with vermin to show for it.

This thread makes me feel like a very old man, and I'm not quite 50. I say it makes me feel old, because where and when I grew up, any and all teenage males would find their out-of-place presence challenged by the adult males of the community.

When I was a kid, I hated the fact that the men, and quite frankly the more assertive women, would constantly ask us what we were doing, where we were going, and did our parents know where we were? Plus, any of those adults would feel totally comfortable reporting on us to our parents if they thought something was amiss.

As an adult, I now understand that their vigilance was invaluable, and that my own life might have been very different had the adults in my community not cared enough to do their best to keep us all in line. The debt I owe them for both keeping me safe, and on the right path, is immeasurable.

Maybe people like this new way better; the new way, where children are routinely get abducted in broad daylight, the new way, where kids are routinely hooked on dope by their teens, the new way, where gangs of roaming vermin slaughter each other over having been "dissed", the new way, where one's mere existence commands the greatest of respect. The new way, where one's personal merit and behavior is measured against absolutely nothing, because the most vile among us are to be considered of equal value to their respective communities.

You folks are welcome to your new way, it is a semi-free country after all. Keep your new way, where the only reasonable solution to any given problem is to call your almighty government, and hope they will come in time to sort it all out for you.

Enjoy having your government be in charge of your safety, your education, your nourishment, your medical care, etc... Enjoy having the largest per capita prison population on Earth, all because correcting a kid's bad behavior "outside the system", and before it becomes unstoppably evil, is taboo. Good luck to you all.

Myself, I prefer the old way, and will continue to conduct myself in its fashion. And I will never apologize for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdavionic View Post
I am also closing in on 50 and had similar experiences growing up. While I agree with the sentiment, it's unfortunate that you cannot be immune to "their" environment that they have created. We all suffer what we've evolved to become.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
The part in bold, what do you mean?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdavionic View Post
I mean that simply because you want to live your life a certain way, it doesn't mean that you're immune to how others live theirs and how the government runs theirs and yours.
  • We want to live your life a certain way

  • We're not immune to how others live theirs

  • We're not immune to how the government runs theirs and ours.
That's very good and very true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
I canít speak for jdavionic, but I took it to mean that society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in, we canít divorce ourselves from it and are not immune to its side effects. A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims. A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being. A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.

At times people donít help one another because if something goes wrong theyíll be left to hang alone, they and their families will be destroyed. Supposedly Zimmerman helped many people in the past; it is now that a couple have added a line or two to news articles. Iím not saying I agree with what he did, but hope the people he cared about are at least offering some support behind the scenes. There are a few of his 911 calls in youtube, he even called when kids were playing on the street and at risk of getting hit by passing vehicles. In that particular call he was asked about the race of the kids again, they were of a variety of races. That was among the last 6 calls that were counted against him in the media to attempt to prove he was a racist.

.
  • Society as a whole has contributed to this environment we find ourselves in

  • We canít divorce ourselves from it

  • We are not immune to its side effects.

    • A society where at times criminals have more rights than their victims.

    • A society where a good samaritan can find themselves in legal trouble for trying to help another human being.

    • A society that often cares very little about how their words and actions harm others.

  • At times people donít help one another because if something goes wrong

    • theyíll be left to hang alone,

    • they and their families will be destroyed.
jdavionic, Misty, these are facts, not just opinions, real facts about where we are, that everyone, not just everyone who carries, but really everyone can use in deciding what role they individually and collectively will play in today's society.

That, jdavionic, is why I asked the question.
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921

Last edited by RussP; 04-06-2012 at 07:17..
RussP is offline  
Old 04-06-2012, 07:57   #1293
Southswede
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
It is actually a matter of life and death, likely your own. Is any property (yours or others) worth your life? Zimmerman got lucky!

.
Where do YOU draw the line then?

I think the correct question is: does someone else think my property dying for?
Southswede is offline  
Old 04-06-2012, 08:28   #1294
Misty02
Senior Member
 
Misty02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southswede View Post
Where do YOU draw the line then?

I think the correct question is: does someone else think my property dying for?
That is a good question. I have spent as much time training with my firearm, reading the statutes, and some case law as I have spent mentally and emotionally preparing myself for an event I pray never takes place. That preparation has taken me beyond the use and legalities of weapons and into prevention, avoidance and de-escalation of possible conflicts to reduce the possibility of ever needing to use my firearm.

Each of us has to determine where that line is. As an example, Bren and I have drawn that line in different places. I donít believe either of us is wrong or right. Each of us has taken into consideration our level of experience and various skills to determine where our breaking point is. I have little doubt that his hand to hand (H2H) skills allow him to stand his ground successfully in many areas where the use of a firearm is neither legal nor appropriate. I, on the other hand, am a middle aged woman with little to no experience in H2H; obviously Iím going to do everything in my power to avoid such situations.

I believe it is important to objectively know yourself, your capabilities, your skill level and then proceed accordingly. I believe that is an area where Zimmerman failed. One thing is to address trouble that comes to you the best way you can because you canít escape it, quite another to follow a person that you know nothing about. He didnít know if Martin was a criminal in the prowl, if he was armed, what his H2H skill level was or if he was alone. He was in over his head and didnít take a second to think of the consequences. He may have had good intentions in keeping an eye on Martin until police arrived but it is obvious his plan didnít work out quite as he thought. He either overestimated himself or underestimated his opponent, either could be deadly.

May I turn the question back to you? Based on your skills, physical condition and knowledge, do you believe you have the capability to successfully follow someone because there have been break-ins in your neighborhood and you wish to prevent another? Would the property of your neighbor, or yours, be worth the risk? Can you handle what would likely come your way? The answer for you may be yes. For me is no, and sadly, there are likely more people on my side of the fence than on the opposite one.


.
__________________


"In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them." - Sun Tzu

Outpost Member #69
Misty02 is offline  
Old 04-06-2012, 08:34   #1295
steveksux
Massive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 14,302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southswede View Post
Where do YOU draw the line then?

I think the correct question is: does someone else think my property dying for?
If I may, the "someone else" who's opinion everyone should REALLY be worried about is the local prosecutor. He's the one that will decide to file charges if he thinks your property is not worth someone else dying for.

Randy

Last edited by steveksux; 04-06-2012 at 08:37..
steveksux is offline  
Old 04-06-2012, 08:44   #1296
Misty02
Senior Member
 
Misty02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveksux View Post
If I may, the "someone else" who's opinion everyone should REALLY be worried about is the local prosecutor. He's the one that will decide to file charges if he thinks your property is not worth someone else dying for.

Randy
May I add: something you only need to worry about if you survive the encounter.

.
__________________


"In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them." - Sun Tzu

Outpost Member #69
Misty02 is offline  
Old 04-06-2012, 09:08   #1297
steveksux
Massive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 14,302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
May I add: something you only need to worry about if you survive the encounter.

.
Then you shot in defense of life, not property...

I always say, when I'm more afraid of what the guy in front of me is going to do to me in the next 7 seconds than I am of what my cellmate will do to me in the next 7 years... time to hesitate is over. as long as I'm reasonable, its a good shoot and I shouldn't have to worry about the 7 years.

Randy

Last edited by steveksux; 04-06-2012 at 09:11..
steveksux is offline  
Old 04-06-2012, 09:44   #1298
Misty02
Senior Member
 
Misty02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveksux View Post
Then you shot in defense of life, not property...

I always say, when I'm more afraid of what the guy in front of me is going to do to me in the next 7 seconds than I am of what my cellmate will do to me in the next 7 years... time to hesitate is over. as long as I'm reasonable, its a good shoot and I shouldn't have to worry about the 7 years.

Randy
Got ya!!!

I'm quite dense at times.

.
__________________


"In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them." - Sun Tzu

Outpost Member #69
Misty02 is offline  
Old 04-06-2012, 10:18   #1299
vkscott
Retired USAF
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Somewhere in TX
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
It kind of follows my original comment that Fred commented on, which is the one jdavionic was commenting on. Fred mentioned the old ways as being better (which I think we all agree with). The only thing I would have changed in jdavionicís comment would be ďourĒ in lieu ďtheirĒ. Whether by active participation in getting to where we are today or by our silence and allowing it to happen, we are all at fault. Teachers that attempt to correct our childrenís behavior and moral compass are punished for overstepping their bounds, neighbors that do it are told to mind their business, the same with strangers that may merely offer a suggestion on curving inappropriate behavior.

When I was a kid, had I said anything other than ďIím sorryĒ to an adult that told me what I was doing/saying was wrong in front of my mother, she would have back-handed me into the next kingdom. Even if the adult was wrong, we couldnít disrespect them; we had to stop doing whatever was bothering the adult and allow my mother to deal with them if they were out of line (and we couldnít resume what we were doing unless she said it was ok), but God help us if we tried to do it ourselves.

Things have changed to the point where there is no common sense any more. A parent would be arrested, charged and convicted of a felony for spanking a child on the tush and then have their children taken away: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qu2xasJ4yU We should have form protests around the country when this happened and demanded the government back off, but we didnít. Our inaction will allow the courts to do this again and make parents think twice when attempting to discipline their children; the same ones we later complain are preying on society because they are out of control.


.
Good thing I watched the video before I posted. I was going to post that in TX, the penal code section 9.61 states:

ß 9.61. PARENT-CHILD. (a) The use of force, but not
deadly force, against a child younger than 18 years is justified
:
(1) if the actor is the child's parent or stepparent or
is acting in loco parentis to the child; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably
believes the force is necessary to discipline the child or to
safeguard or promote his welfare.

(b) For purposes of this section, "in loco parentis"
includes grandparent and guardian, any person acting by, through,
or under the direction of a court with jurisdiction over the child,
and anyone who has express or implied consent of the parent or
parents.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, ß 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, ß 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.


But the judge was out of Corpus Christi, TX. I wonder if there was more to the evidence than the media released (that would never happen, would it ). BTW, I spank my kids when they need it.
__________________
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms."
- James Madison

NRA Member, G30SF, Kimber Raptor II.
vkscott is offline  
Old 04-06-2012, 10:49   #1300
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
52 pages - has everything been discussed?
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline  

 
  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 17:27.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,266
327 Members
939 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42