GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-08-2012, 00:02   #26
Ak.Hiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Homer Alaska
Posts: 2,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
My question is, exactly what is it that people expect to learn from such tests? I'd like to believe that people understand the most basic differences between jugs of water and a living breathing human beings...
Bring this up to one of your politicians and I bet they could come up with a law banning such ammo tests. Problem solved at least in California.
Ak.Hiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2012, 23:30   #27
PghJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
My question is, exactly what is it that people expect to learn from such tests? I'd like to believe that people understand the most basic differences between jugs of water and a living breathing human beings...
Unless you shoot people or animals you need a substitute to judge bullet peformance. I have shot though thousands of jugs and can tell you that the bare jug test does not differ that much than the bare gel test as far as expansion at a certain velocity. It is the same thing with the 4 layer of denim and the IWBA test. I just shot 155gr 40S&W HST today and comparing my results to Federal's chart I am not more than 0.03" different with either test on expansion. All of you people think we are the stupidest ones around for shooting jugs. I just get so tired of this crap, I do not post any results anymore. The fact it was shot through jugs is in the title of the thread. If you knew it was usless, why not just pass it by.

I know they are slowly heading west and some day out there in CA, you will be attacked by a set of denim clad jugs. We just want to be sure you are prepared.
PghJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 00:07   #28
Ak.Hiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Homer Alaska
Posts: 2,296
I am with PghJim. I doubt I will be posting any more bullet testing here on GT. The information I have gathered over many years of testing non expanding ammo through spruce logs of different thickness to moose bones has been quite interesting for me. The results pretty much mirror the teachings of Elmer Keith and Veral Smith. Big bore flat point hardcast bullets out of a handgun will out penetrate a lot of rifles that are loaded with expanding bullets. Even a 357 Magnum loaded with 180 grain hardcast like the Buffalo Bore will penetrate way further than one would think. So will a 250 grain cast at even 950 out of a 45 auto rim or a 200 grain 10mm FMJ like the thick jacketed Montana Gold or Hornady. If you need something light and handy for protection in the woods a good hardcast is hard to beat. Nothing wrong with even a 357 Magnum or 10mm if you know what bullets to load. I doubt any critter in North America has a skull thick enough to stop one. Protection is different than hunting. Being able to move fast and think quickly is a weapon in itself. Having a fast into action handgun on the hip can be the difference between death or survival. But it does seem the crowd that hangs out here on GT takes great pleasure in poking fun at folks that just want to post some information that they find interesting. It reminds me of people that go into a retail store to give clerks a hard time. Knowing full well that they can get away with it. If they were to meet you on the street it would be totally different. Same type of mentality.
Ak.Hiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 02:46   #29
Tiro Fijo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ak.Hiker View Post
...But it does seem the crowd that hangs out here on GT takes great pleasure in poking fun at folks that just want to post some information that they find interesting. It reminds me of people that go into a retail store to give clerks a hard time. Knowing full well that they can get away with it. If they were to meet you on the street it would be totally different. Same type of mentality.

We KNOW that a hardcast bullet will penetrate umpteen inches of mammal flesh. Most of these posts are concerned about STOPPING another human being and not a charging lion in the Serengeti. So what does that bring to the table for modern era shooters looking for a solid self defense round? I know of no one who would knowingly get into a gunfight with SWC or WFN bullets in today's world. Most of us won't have to shoot our way out of a pack of rabid wolves in thigh deep snow in Yellowstone or stop a charging Kodiak & if I did I would go to a hunting forum for Big Game to look for advice.

Glock Talk, for the most part, is about handguns for self defense, competition & range usage so it only goes to say that an incorporated ammo forum would pertain to that, would it not? The vast majority of self defense queries are by people who have little or no knowledge of such. Is ballistic gel and denim a good measure? To be frank, I'm not 100% sure. However, it is an abitrary standard that obviously holds some credence or else LE would use something else. I have no problem with people shooting whatever they want as it's your gun & your ammo. However, I do think that it's a stretch to INFER or INSINUATE that it practically duplicates the aforementioned standard any moreso than humping a rubber doll is analagous to real lovemaking.
Tiro Fijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 08:01   #30
highfructosecornsyrp
Senior Member
 
highfructosecornsyrp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
We KNOW that a hardcast bullet will penetrate umpteen inches of mammal flesh. Most of these posts are concerned about STOPPING another human being and not a charging lion in the Serengeti. So what does that bring to the table for modern era shooters looking for a solid self defense round? I know of no one who would knowingly get into a gunfight with SWC or WFN bullets in today's world. Most of us won't have to shoot our way out of a pack of rabid wolves in thigh deep snow in Yellowstone or stop a charging Kodiak & if I did I would go to a hunting forum for Big Game to look for advice.

Glock Talk, for the most part, is about handguns for self defense, competition & range usage so it only goes to say that an incorporated ammo forum would pertain to that, would it not? The vast majority of self defense queries are by people who have little or no knowledge of such. Is ballistic gel and denim a good measure? To be frank, I'm not 100% sure. However, it is an abitrary standard that obviously holds some credence or else LE would use something else. I have no problem with people shooting whatever they want as it's your gun & your ammo. However, I do think that it's a stretch to INFER or INSINUATE that it practically duplicates the aforementioned standard any moreso than humping a rubber doll is analagous to real lovemaking.
Personally I don't know or care what anyone here is insinuating or inferring. I thought it was an interesting read.

Try not to guess what other people are thinking and then become offended by it.

It reminds me of that old saying, I think it goes something like this: Demanding that other people not offend you is like wearing a sign on your shirt that says, "I cannot control my own emotions, so I demand that you do it for me."

Thanks for the interesting thread guys, I find this stuff very interesting.
highfructosecornsyrp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 10:05   #31
PghJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
However, I do think that it's a stretch to INFER or INSINUATE that it practically duplicates the aforementioned standard any moreso than humping a rubber doll is analagous to real lovemaking.
What if you filled the rubber doll with water??
PghJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 12:58   #32
Ak.Hiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Homer Alaska
Posts: 2,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
We KNOW that a hardcast bullet will penetrate umpteen inches of mammal flesh. Most of these posts are concerned about STOPPING another human being and not a charging lion in the Serengeti. So what does that bring to the table for modern era shooters looking for a solid self defense round? I know of no one who would knowingly get into a gunfight with SWC or WFN bullets in today's world. Most of us won't have to shoot our way out of a pack of rabid wolves in thigh deep snow in Yellowstone or stop a charging Kodiak & if I did I would go to a hunting forum for Big Game to look for advice.

Glock Talk, for the most part, is about handguns for self defense, competition & range usage so it only goes to say that an incorporated ammo forum would pertain to that, would it not? The vast majority of self defense queries are by people who have little or no knowledge of such. Is ballistic gel and denim a good measure? To be frank, I'm not 100% sure. However, it is an abitrary standard that obviously holds some credence or else LE would use something else. I have no problem with people shooting whatever they want as it's your gun & your ammo. However, I do think that it's a stretch to INFER or INSINUATE that it practically duplicates the aforementioned standard any moreso than humping a rubber doll is analagous to real lovemaking.
I could not have asked for a better example of what I was trying to say in my own post. Your response is just what I was talking about.
Ak.Hiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 15:57   #33
Tiro Fijo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,070
Quote:
Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
What if you filled the rubber doll with water??

That's actually pretty funny!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ak.Hiker View Post
I could not have asked for a better example of what I was trying to say in my own post. Your response is just what I was talking about.

So that means you're not going to regale us with more of your "death by cougar" posts as you circumnavigate the Sonoran Desert a la Bear Grylls?

Tiro Fijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 19:11   #34
ADK_40GLKr
Senior Member
 
ADK_40GLKr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: RFD NY Adks
Posts: 2,130
Blog Entries: 2
More jugs

To me, shooting a HP out of my short G27 with LWD 9 mm conversion gives me a clue as to whether it'll open up or act like a FMJ in a defensive situation.

I got a few more plastic jugs and jars together and fired a couple more 147 gr 9mm Winchester PDX1. I put the thin walled milk jug in front, rather than the heavier plastic pickle jar.

1st shot penetrated the 3rd jar after blowing the first apart, and splitting the 2nd. A HP opening up in water is an impressive display of energy, but a 9mm out of a 3.5" barrel looks pretty anemic next to a .40 out of a 4.5" barrel.
__________________
Luke 22:36 He said to them, ď... if you donít have a Glock, sell your cloak and buy one."

NRA, GSSF, IDPA, NY voter.

Last edited by ADK_40GLKr; 06-01-2012 at 11:03..
ADK_40GLKr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 23:08   #35
Ak.Hiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Homer Alaska
Posts: 2,296
So that means you're not going to regale us with more of your "death by cougar" posts as you circumnavigate the Sonoran Desert a la Bear Grylls?
We do not have cougars here in south central Alaska. You may have me confused with one of my pals from the south west. We did have a report of one a few years ago. If there was one someone must have shot it. A good number of folks that live here in Homer spend quite a lot of time in the outdoors either fishing, hunting, hiking, riding snow machines or 4 wheelers etc. Living in Alaska is quite an experience. I would not expect a guy from the lower 48 to really understand our lifestyle. Of course the outdoorsman and ranchers that post here would have a much better idea than the city boys. They would fit in as well if they decided to visit.
Ak.Hiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 18:21   #36
fortyofforty
Capt. Hindsight
 
fortyofforty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,111
I don't mind reading about water jug tests. I've done my share of them, and it's actually fun. I also don't mind reading people's personal chronograph results. I know my chronograph and my barrel are different than those of the tester, even if the ammunition is the same (but different lots, for sure). Throw in weather conditions as another variable. But they are still of interest to me, so I will glance over them.

I do not make my self-defense ammunition choices based solely on water jug tests, nor do I make them based on chronograph results.

(By the way, using a chronograph, I was able to personally dispel a myth held by a friend that handgun barrel length has no impact on bullet velocity. The results spoke for themselves as we fired the same type of ammunition through a GLOCK 27, GLOCK 22, and GLOCK 35, with the velocity increasing each time.)
__________________
Odumbo: Unpatriotic, Narcissistic Man-Child. Democrat is the Party of Rape, Special Interests, Greed, Slavery, Sloth, Ignorance, Bigotry and Segregation. Click here to save animals! Gun Rights are Civil Rights.
fortyofforty is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:32.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,249
358 Members
891 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42