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Old 04-11-2012, 20:57   #1
DannyII
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Anti -"No Firearms" sign letter offered up for review-& it worked!!!

Hi, all.

I've been thinking about the "no firearm" signs I see from time to time in my part of Ohio, and wanted to create a letter to give to the owner/manager to try to educate them to the benefits of removing the signs, without getting into a verbal confrontation, sounding rude or like a "gun-nut". Not wanting to re-create the wheel, I reviewed several sources, and added my own language. I realize many owners/managers may not care what I think, but some might.

Anyway, here's the letter. It's kinda long, but fits on one sheet of paper. Feel free to make suggestions, or even copy and edit it for your own use.


I am writing this letter in response to the “No Firearms” sign posted in your establishment.

As is your right as a private property owner/manager, you have chosen to invoke the power of the State of Ohio to disarm law-abiding citizens like myself when we are in your establishment. I have great respect for your private property rights, and the laws of the State of Ohio. Therefore, even though I am a firm believer in the right of self-preservation and self-defense, I will honor your sign by not carrying my self-defense firearm while in your establishment. Of course, I also recognize that my obedience to your sign could very well cost me my life, or cause me to suffer serious bodily injury. I sincerely hope you recognize this as well.

By prohibiting all firearms on your property, you have disarmed and made helpless anyone who enters your establishment; except for criminals, who obviously won’t respect or follow your policy anyway. In essence, you’ve made your establishment more dangerous for patrons who carry a firearm in accordance with Ohio law, and safer for criminals.

You may have posted your sign as a way to attempt to limit your establishment’s liability. Perhaps you are not aware that under Ohio law, "a private employer is immune from liability in a civil action for any injury, death, or loss to person or property that allegedly was caused by or related to the private employer’s decision to permit a licensee to bring …a handgun onto the premises or property of the private employer." ORC 2923.126 (C)(2)(a)

Perhaps you are also not aware that as Concealed Carry Permit holders, law-abiding people such as me have:
1. No felony convictions,
2. No domestic violence convictions,
3. No drug convictions,
4. No pending indictments, and are not fugitives from justice,
5. No mental defects, or disabilities,
6. Passed a criminal background check,
7. Submitted a current photograph to law enforcement,
8. Submitted fingerprints and other identifying information to law enforcement,
9. Demonstrated firearms competency by obtaining a Proof of Competency Certificate,
10. Completed a minimum of twelve hours of firearms training,
11. Undergone training in safe firearm storage, handling and usage,
12. Received and reviewed Ohio’s Concealed Carry laws as required by Ohio law.

Now that you know all these things about concealed carry holders, I would ask you to consider how little you know about your other customers. I would think that concealed carry holders are exactly the type of law-abiding, respectful people you would want to have in your establishment. Unfortunately, your “No Firearms” sign tells us that we are not welcome. Many of us choose to honor your sign by doing business where we are welcomed, instead of in your establishment.

Please consider changing your “No Firearms” policy, and removing your “No Firearms” signs.

Thank you for your time, and consideration.
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Last edited by DannyII; 04-12-2012 at 13:45.. Reason: Taking suggestions for improvement
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Old 04-11-2012, 22:11   #2
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"Of course, I also recognize that my obedience to your sign couldvery well cost me my life, or cause me to suffer serious bodily injury. I sincerely hope you recognize this as well."

i think this is a poor choice of words and it unfairly targets the business owners as being responsible without taking into account the fact that you still entered his business despite knowing the risks. If a criminal attacks, blame the criminal, not the business owners. Posting that sign didn't hurt you and if "obeying" a sign might end up in such a terrible predicament, why not take personal responsibility and avoid the place?

" Byposting your “No Firearms” sign, you have informed criminals that you havecaused your employees and patrons to be defenseless against criminal attack."

Would hiring an armed security guard help? Or has the business done some other things a reasonable person would do to help protect against criminals? Certainly armed patrons is not the only answer is it?

Some minor points, otherwise it looks fine.
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Old 04-11-2012, 22:15   #3
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Sounds good to me, maybe I'm mis imformed but don't places of business that post no firearm signs receive lower insurance rates?
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Old 04-11-2012, 22:28   #4
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I wouldlike to see a no permit system implemented in Ohio and hope to eventually seethat happen just as several other states have in place. Hanging your hat on thehoops you currently have to go through goes away if we do away with the licensingprocess which will leave your numerated points with little value.

I would thinkyou would get better traction by citing the code that insulates them from harmif a self-defense shooting takes place in their establishment. Most are underthe impression that they must post to eliminate liability. Trying to reasonwith them to your sensibilities may not work, showing them their bottom linewon't be effected should speak louder to what they find important.
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Old 04-11-2012, 23:45   #5
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After your list of 12 conditions for concealed carry permits, you should say something like, "Now you know all these things about concealed carry holders, how much do you know about your other customers?"
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Old 04-11-2012, 23:52   #6
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There is a lgs in tulsa that gives out these cards that say "Your 'no gun' sign prevents me from patronizing your business. So, I, my family, and other gun owners will spend our money with your competitors" On the bottom in bold it says, "No guns = No money". On the opposite side it says, "Your no gun sign is bad for business. It does nothing to make you safer or prevent crime. It simply tells criminals you are an easy target and drives away good customers who have a concealed carry license. As an Oklahoma Concealed Handgun License Holder, I....1. Have no felony convictions (lifetime) 2. Have never been convicted of any drug offense, 3. Have no mental defects or disabilities, 4. Have passed a criminal history background check. How much do you know about your OTHER customers?"

I thought this was very well put, concise, and to the point... And it all fits on the front and back of a business card!
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Old 04-12-2012, 00:13   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arushus View Post
After your list of 12 conditions for concealed carry permits, you should say something like, "Now you know all these things about concealed carry holders, how much do you know about your other customers?"
Ooh, I like that!!
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:10   #8
DannyII
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Punk View Post
I wouldlike to see a no permit system implemented in Ohio and hope to eventually seethat happen just as several other states have in place. Hanging your hat on thehoops you currently have to go through goes away if we do away with the licensingprocess which will leave your numerated points with little value.

I would thinkyou would get better traction by citing the code that insulates them from harmif a self-defense shooting takes place in their establishment. Most are underthe impression that they must post to eliminate liability. Trying to reasonwith them to your sensibilities may not work, showing them their bottom linewon't be effected should speak louder to what they find important.

Ohio is a long way off from a no permit state.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:11   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arushus View Post
There is a lgs in tulsa that gives out these cards that say "Your 'no gun' sign prevents me from patronizing your business. So, I, my family, and other gun owners will spend our money with your competitors" On the bottom in bold it says, "No guns = No money". On the opposite side it says, "Your no gun sign is bad for business. It does nothing to make you safer or prevent crime. It simply tells criminals you are an easy target and drives away good customers who have a concealed carry license. As an Oklahoma Concealed Handgun License Holder, I....1. Have no felony convictions (lifetime) 2. Have never been convicted of any drug offense, 3. Have no mental defects or disabilities, 4. Have passed a criminal history background check. How much do you know about your OTHER customers?"

I thought this was very well put, concise, and to the point... And it all fits on the front and back of a business card!
I have seen, and like the cards, too, but wanted something more detailed, and hopefully more persuasive.
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Last edited by DannyII; 04-12-2012 at 07:12..
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:13   #10
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Originally Posted by G19_AJ View Post
Sounds good to me, maybe I'm mis imformed but don't places of business that post no firearm signs receive lower insurance rates?
I've never heard of that.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:18   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kensteele View Post
"Of course, I also recognize that my obedience to your sign couldvery well cost me my life, or cause me to suffer serious bodily injury. I sincerely hope you recognize this as well."

i think this is a poor choice of words and it unfairly targets the business owners as being responsible without taking into account the fact that you still entered his business despite knowing the risks. If a criminal attacks, blame the criminal, not the business owners. Posting that sign didn't hurt you and if "obeying" a sign might end up in such a terrible predicament, why not take personal responsibility and avoid the place?

" Byposting your “No Firearms” sign, you have informed criminals that you havecaused your employees and patrons to be defenseless against criminal attack."

Would hiring an armed security guard help? Or has the business done some other things a reasonable person would do to help protect against criminals? Certainly armed patrons is not the only answer is it?

Some minor points, otherwise it looks fine.
By saying the words in your first quoted section, I was trying to point out that the owner, while not responsible for the criminal's actions, is directly responsible for disarming law-abiding customers, who may become crime victims while in their establishment.

This letter is intended for businesses where I have to continue to do business with them, and do not have the luxury of just going elsewhere.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:38   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Punk View Post
I wouldlike to see a no permit system implemented in Ohio and hope to eventually seethat happen just as several other states have in place. Hanging your hat on thehoops you currently have to go through goes away if we do away with the licensingprocess which will leave your numerated points with little value.

I would thinkyou would get better traction by citing the code that insulates them from harmif a self-defense shooting takes place in their establishment. Most are underthe impression that they must post to eliminate liability. Trying to reasonwith them to your sensibilities may not work, showing them their bottom linewon't be effected should speak louder to what they find important.
Edited to include immunity code section. Thanks!
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:38   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Punk View Post
Hanging your hat on thehoops you currently have to go through goes away if we do away with the licensingprocess which will leave your numerated points with little value.
He has to deal with the reality of the way the CCW law is today, not what it may be in 5 or 20 years (and it's unlikely Ohio will ever go to a no-permit system; I'm still amazed we have CCW at all).

I think enumerating those points was the best part of the letter.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 04-12-2012 at 08:46..
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:41   #14
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I don't like the "obedience" line either. Ohio signage carries the weight of law. You're basically saying "If I choose to follow the law..." you're putting me at risk. Just doesn't sound good.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 04-12-2012 at 08:41..
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:08   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G19_AJ View Post
Sounds good to me, maybe I'm mis imformed but don't places of business that post no firearm signs receive lower insurance rates?
That's not a question I've ever seen on an insurance application. More urban legend.
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:12   #16
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I would definitely lose this part....

Quote:
There may well come a time when an armed, law-abiding citizen such as me stands between you, your employees or your patrons and an armed criminal.
Last thing you want to do is plant the seed of a potential shootout. That's why he probably posted in the first place. You're just reinforcing his fears.
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:21   #17
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Originally Posted by HexHead View Post
I would definitely lose this part....



Last thing you want to do is plant the seed of a potential shootout. That's why he probably posted in the first place. You're just reinforcing his fears.
Yeah, I don't want this to be seen as a negative thing, only a positive reason as to why the sign is not a good idea.

Edited letter.

Thanks.
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:23   #18
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Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
I don't like the "obedience" line either. Ohio signage carries the weight of law. You're basically saying "If I choose to follow the law..." you're putting me at risk. Just doesn't sound good.
That's my point though. That I will follow the law, but that means I'm placed at risk due to your posted sign because I can't defend myself in your place.

Any suggestions for alternate wording?
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:29   #19
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A thoughtful and well written letter, Danny! It's passion like yours that helps to keep our rights intact.

That said, I don't know if I'd bother. If it is, in fact, true that the business gets a lower insurance premium, then it's about the money. They aren't likely to change and that's too bad. Just my tuppence, so please don't let me discourage you. I do like the idea of the small card, but I fear you're wasting your valuable time and effort on a personal letter.

For some reason, I've been very interested in Ohio's battle for CCW and have followed it off and on since nearly the beginning. It seems it's been a major drama in your state, with considerable pushback. (I was outraged by the efforts to make your personal information public domain... Has that been resolved?)

Regardless of the insurance issue, Buckeye gun owners have a perception problem and face a very polarized populace. What's needed is to win hearts and minds... I just don't know how you'll do that, but I suspect you will.

If you choose to send the letter, you might consider an overall tone of humble informativeness (is that a word?), avoiding anything that could reasonably be construed as confrontational or challenging. Perhaps close with something like, "Very Respectfully Yours".

I don't mean to suggest that Ohians should remain silent and contrite -- you certainly have cause to be fed up -- but a degree of diplomacy might be needed just now. Of course, as is always true, there are entities that will twist your every word and deed to "reveal" your nature as the "Bloodthirsty, Triggerhappy, Fearmongers" you exactly are not. Ironically, it is they who are in bondage to fallacy, myth, misconception and debilitating fear.

Keep up the good work, Ohio!

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Old 04-12-2012, 10:25   #20
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Thanks, Spike52.

I think education overcomes ignorance. I did not want it to sound confrontational, and I like your phrase "humble informativeness".

As far as name disclosure, we won that one. Under Ohio law, upon written request, a journalist has the right to view the name, county of residence, and date of birth of CCW applicants, whether issued or denied a permit. But, the journalist shall not copy the name, county of residence, or date of birth of each person to or for whom the sheriff has issued, suspended, or revoked a license described in this division. ORC 2923.129 (B)(2)(a)

Ohio is certainly a state divided when it comes to gun rights. We have stauch supporters on both sides of the issue. Again, that's why I think education is more important than confrontation.
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