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Old 04-12-2012, 09:15   #141
callihan_44
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Originally Posted by sr556m9 View Post
This whole thing just shows how our once great nation is going right down the toilet. The media in this country is our worst enemy. All they do is spread lies and incite violence. People better get their heads out of their asses and start voting these people who are running our country out of office. Look for a HUGE assault on the Stand your ground laws and CCW in general. And I do believe the prosecutor folded to public pressure on this one. They don't want any trouble out of the black community. Basically, our nation is full of absolute cowards these day.
I agree, there are people today still believe that EVERYTHING you hear from the media IS the truth and dont bother even looking further. The days of the mainstream media actually digging for the truth is LONG GONE.
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:16   #142
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Alright I'm tagging out, time for someone else to feed him. Amazing.
I doubt anyone cares to argue further with him as he is blind to any other point of view but his own interpretation of the limited information.
No need to waste any time on a closed mind.
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:37   #143
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I welcome the news of Zimmerman's arrest with open arms. If we remove race and the fact that Zimmerman is a member of the CCW fraternity. Most of us would probably find him guilty. However, I am very interested in knowing more about the facts of this case. Let's not forget that an arrest doesn't necessarily mean a guilty verdict. Plus, the "hold your ground" law shouldn't only apply to gun owners. It sound like Travon "held his ground" and kicked Zimmerman's @$$ after being chased by him. Which led to his death after a well whooped Zimmerman "held his ground" by shooting him.

However, as one poster mentioned, it is a sad day for this country. I wonder at times if Zimmerman was black and Travon was white, would this be handled and viewed differently by all of us.
GOOD post.
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:59   #144
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Actually, as a defense attorney, who would gladly represent Mr. Zimmerman, I have to agree with Flintlocker. I read all 8 pages of this and I'm not shocked one bit at the ideological and emotional rants.

The person who started the fight is relevant, and from what is available to date it's unclear who did. Once the fight is on the "victim" may only use reasonable force in defense. In other words, if in a fist fight you can not escalate with a weapon, unless doing so is reasonable under the circumstances. The reasonableness of the action is a jury question. Now if you, in defending yourself use deadly force you must prove that you reasonably feared for your life. If you are confronted by less than lethal force or you unreasonably believe the force is lethal you do not have the right to use deadly force, you can not avail yourself of perfect self-defense.

A jury will decide:

1) who was the initial aggressor.
2) if self defense was justified - was there real fear.
3) was the use of deadly force reasonable.

Remember the prosecution must prove that the right to self defense (SD) was not justified, and they must do so beyond a reasonable doubt. However, even if the right to SD existed the "victim" must be in reasonable fear and the degree of force must be reasonable and he must establish that by a preponderance of the evidence.

An example: a defendant was ambushed by 3 larger men, one of whom sucker punched him in the face, knocking him to the ground. (mind you all is is all captured on video) The puncher, who is 30 lbs heavier and 6 inches taller straddles the Defendant and begins to pummel him as the other two throw a couple of kicks to the Defendant's legs. The defendant fearing for his life pulls a gun, the puncher gets off and begins to back away, during his movement off the defendant a single shot is fired one of the three men, not the puncher is killed. The others flee.

The jury found that the defendant was entitled to self defense, and to defend himself was reasonable, however they felt the use of a gun and thus deadly force was unreasonable in a fist fight. Several jurors said in interviews, "you can't kill some one just because your getting your butt kicked."

Food for thought.


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Old 04-12-2012, 12:01   #145
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Remember the prosecution must prove that the right to self defense (SD) was not justified, and they must do so beyond a reasonable doubt. However, even if the right to SD existed the "victim" must be in reasonable fear and the degree of force must be reasonable and he must establish that by a preponderance of the evidence.

An example: a defendant was ambushed by 3 larger men, one of whom sucker punched him in the face, knocking him to the ground. (mind you all is is all captured on video) The puncher, who is 30 lbs heavier and 6 inches taller straddles the Defendant and begins to pummel him as the other two throw a couple of kicks to the Defendant's legs. The defendant fearing for his life pulls a gun, the puncher gets off and begins to back away, during his movement off the defendant a single shot is fired one of the three men, not the puncher is killed. The others flee.

The jury found that the defendant was entitled to self defense, and to defend himself was reasonable, however they felt the use of a gun and thus deadly force was unreasonable in a fist fight. Several jurors said in interviews, "you can't kill some one just because your getting your butt kicked."

Food for thought.


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Being aware that some jurors could have the type of mindset shown here, couldn't the defense attorney have presented evidence of other incidents of unarmed people having been beaten to death by a larger, stronger attacker thus proving the use of a gun in self defense in this situation was not unreasonable?
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:25   #146
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Nope. It's restricted to the particular defendant and the particular "victim", and what's in their head and heart at the moment although the D need not personally know of the V history of violence. The V history of violence is relevant, but what others did or experienced is not, unless you can present a valid expert with valid studies and it passes particular rules of evidence. It's a reasonable person standard at that moment


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Old 04-12-2012, 12:27   #147
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Being aware that some jurors could have the type of mindset shown here, couldn't the defense attorney have presented evidence of other incidents of unarmed people having been beaten to death by a larger, stronger attacker thus proving the use of a gun in self defense in this situation was not unreasonable?
The problem is more clearly explained like this: for every piece of evidence showing that a big guy killed a smaller guy with his bare hands you could present the opposite. Not useful to a jury in deciding if the D acted reasonably in the case in point they are deciding.


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Old 04-12-2012, 13:09   #148
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So of a kid comes into my shop and points a gun at me and demands money... Me being a shooter and having been through this before, and being cool headed and well trained, not feeling scared for my life as I've again been through this 3 other times, I draw my side arm and shoot and kill the kid because he's pointing a gun at me...

I could be found guilty of second degree murder?

Just asking, cause I often think about this. I'm more concerned for my staff than myself. I dont talk to the suspects anymore, I just shoot...


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Old 04-12-2012, 13:29   #149
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So of a kid comes into my shop and points a gun at me and demands money... Me being a shooter and having been through this before, and being cool headed and well trained, not feeling scared for my life as I've again been through this 3 other times, I draw my side arm and shoot and kill the kid because he's pointing a gun at me...

I could be found guilty of second degree murder?

Just asking, cause I often think about this. I'm more concerned for my staff than myself. I dont talk to the suspects anymore, I just shoot...


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Somebody pointing a gun at you is reasonable fear of your life, just because you are some badass like Raylan Givens does not change that.
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Old 04-12-2012, 13:49   #150
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Not bad ass, but I do have the right skill set. I anticipated robberies and built the store accordingly. The first time it happened I wasn't even opened a year. My partner had me retain a lawyer just in case. I kinda felt I wasted money for an attorney. The 3rd time I just happened to swing by the shop at closing and my employee buzzed the door to let someone in, when the held the door opened she shouted to me that it didn't look right. Another kid ran in with a mask and a shotgun. I drew and shot 3 times he dropped the gun and both ran off.

Later he turned up at a friends house with 2 bullet wounds and told the cops he was robbed for his crack at the street corner. Ballistics showed it was me that shot him.

I wasn't in fear for my life but for my staff. Employees start dropping when they get robbed....

But I often wonder that in court, of a prosecutor can prove because I have training and wasn't in fear for my life, and could have taken the kid at any point that they could charge me even though the kid was armed with an unloaded shotgun...


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Old 04-12-2012, 14:08   #151
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prosecutor can prove because I have training and wasn't in fear for my life,
No prosecutor could prove that with a gun pointed at you, you were not in fear for your life. Well, at least as long as you didn't run around shouting that you were never worried.
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Old 04-12-2012, 14:22   #152
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No prosecutor could prove that with a gun pointed at you, you were not in fear for your life. Well, at least as long as you didn't run around shouting that you were never worried.
Well... Like Zimmerman, I would never admit it at the time...


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Old 04-12-2012, 15:58   #153
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Nope. It's restricted to the particular defendant and the particular "victim", and what's in their head and heart at the moment although the D need not personally know of the V history of violence. The V history of violence is relevant, but what others did or experienced is not, unless you can present a valid expert with valid studies and it passes particular rules of evidence. It's a reasonable person standard at that moment


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Well, let's review. There was no evidence to arrest Zimmerman, no one was going to prosecute. so they had to employ a "special prosecutor". Moreover, they have not moved to change venue despite the clear bias against Zimmerman in the area.

All these actions are very telling. This trial is about fear and race, not the facts or evidence.
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Old 04-12-2012, 16:01   #154
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Just Z's word .... he is the only witness that saw everything and knows what he thought.

Doc44
Wrong, there were other people who witnessed the altercation and made 911 calls of their own.
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Old 04-12-2012, 16:05   #155
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You're out of your depth. "Jumped the guy"? Maybe you'll show me the evidence for that statement. Oh, that's right, you can't because it doesn't exist.

You hear what you want to hear and discard the things you don't. You're an ideologue defending a political position. There's no way you can be taken seriously when you make declarations about things that are unknowable. My advice to you: sit in your corner and be quiet.
You hear what you are spoon fed. Rather, than looking at all the various sources, you sent with the lame stream media like NBC who is currently being investigated for altering the 911 call to put a racial bias that was not present.

I will not sit in the corner, or in the back of the bus.

I guess I am just the Rosa Parks of justice on this one.

No one should be allowed to ambush a man at his vehicle, punch him the face and apply a deadly force action of slamming someone's skull against the concrete and not expect a defensive action that may result in their own demise.

This wasn't some 11 year old, that you surely have digested from Time Magazine. It was a 6'3 150 pound mound of muscle jumping a much smaller and weaker man.

So, why don't you get your facts some place other than Time, NBC, and the Black Panthers.
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Old 04-12-2012, 16:09   #156
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Wrong, there were other people who witnessed the altercation and made 911 calls of their own.
Wrong. Reread my post. The key word is "everything".

Z is the ONLY person that knows everything about what happened and the only person who know if he was in fear of his life.

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Old 04-12-2012, 16:25   #157
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no one was going to prosecute. so they had to employ a "special prosecutor".
With all due respect, you have your facts wrong. The prosecutor was going to present his case to a grand jury and in fact had already scheduled that for last Tuesday. In the meantime, the Governor replaced the prosecutor with someone who decided to forgo the grand jury (not in any way unusual).

So to say "no one was going to prosecute" is simply not in any way close to being true.
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Old 04-12-2012, 16:34   #158
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I ask those from FL -does not the Stand your ground law prevent charges unless the evidence say otherwise. So if thats the case how can charges be filed with evidence being presented to a judge to show a crime other then a selfdefense action occured?

I agree she was way to happy about the whole thing ! I guess we wait for the very public hearing.

Well I found it!

"In either case, a person using any force permitted by the law is immune from criminal prosecution or civil action and cannot be arrested unless a law enforcement agency determines there is probable cause that the force used was unlawful."

FL better have some very good evidence or like I said Zimmerman is going to be a very rich man!
Which is why a 2nd degree murder charge may not stick.
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Old 04-12-2012, 16:48   #159
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The most interesting testimony will be that of the girlfriend who was supposedly on the phone with Tray at the time. I bet that they will take whatever she says as gospel. And she can say whatever she wants to, there isn’t any way to corroborate her story.
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Old 04-12-2012, 17:09   #160
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Yes, absolutely. If he was in fear for his life most certainly. There is no evidence presented so far to reflect that however.
You're absolutely right. There is no evidence supporting that Trayvon feared for his life. In addition, there's no evidence supporting that he didn't fear for his life.

There's a lot of speculation out there, which, leads to everyone including me to draw our own conclusion.

But what if...

• Zimmerman's broken nose wasn't a result of the fight with Trayvon. He did refuse EMS attention. At least that what the liberal media reported...

• Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, as a result of having the perceived upper hand during a struggle for control of the gun.

• The cut behind Zimmerman's head was a result of grabbing Trayvon; which, led to Zimmerman landing on his head after Trayvon hit him in the face.

• Screaming means nothing to me.... I can scream for help and point a gun at someone at the same time. I can push the nose of a pistol in someone chest and scream for help. I can pull the trigger of a pistol and scream for help in the process. The question is why am I screaming for help. Am I screaming for help because the prey quickly turned the table (by standing his ground) and became the aggressor.

Regardless, we all drew our on conclusion to the story for whatever reason (e.g. race related matters, support for a member of the CCW frat, etc...). But one thing we can count on is the truth may never be told. There's two sides of the story, and I'm pretty sure Zimmerman may not be completely honest (e.g. He looks like he's on drugs...) here.
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