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Old 04-12-2012, 07:43   #126
syntaxerrorsix
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Originally Posted by DOC44 View Post
Just Z's word .... he is the only witness that saw everything and knows what he thought.

Doc44
Agreed.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:44   #127
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Originally Posted by Flintlocker View Post
Let's say I follow you, at night, back to your home. A confrontation occurs. We fight, I shoot you, and you die. God forbid anyone starts whining about evidence and whatnot. I've got a pretty good story. You're kind of a shady character. You probably deserved it.
Who started the fight?
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:46   #128
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Just Z's word .... he is the only witness that saw everything and knows what he thought.

Doc44
Technically, he's the one of two people to live and tell their tale.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:49   #129
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Who started the fight?
Since you're dead, I say you did it. After all, I was in a fight for my life. Please ignore the video taken 35 minutes after I shot you where I'm looking pretty normal at the PD intake.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:51   #130
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Since you're dead, I say you did it. After all, I was in a fight for my life. Please ignore the video taken 35 minutes after I shot you where I'm looking pretty normal at the PD intake.
So we are discounting the witnesses again.

Got it.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:52   #131
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I'd say that wraps things up. You asked for evidence I provided it and asked for yours and you provided nothing. Have a great day
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:55   #132
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So we are discounting the witnesses again.

Got it.
The witness that saw you on top of me beating me or the witness that saw me straddling your dead body?

I've never ignored a witness in this case. In fact, I've implored people to honestly address all witness testimony with little success.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:00   #133
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Originally Posted by Flintlocker View Post
The witness that saw you on top of me beating me or the witness that saw me straddling your dead body?

I've never ignored a witness in this case. In fact, I've implored people to honestly address all witness testimony with little success.

I provided evidence from the EMT, Police Report, Funeral Director and the eye witness.

I don't know what else you would like. You never responded to post #122 so I figured you were done. Do you have something to add or is it time for more barking?
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:11   #134
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I provided evidence from the EMT, Police Report, Funeral Director and the eye witness.

I don't know what else you would like. You never responded to post #122 so I figured you were done. Do you have something to add or is it time for more barking?
You said Zimmerman was treated for a broken nose, on scene, by the PD or FD. That's clearly not true.

The timing of the aftermath may be of interest to you. As would the actual staging of the even but that's for another post.

Zimmerman was first met by SPD, on scene, at approximately 7:22pm. During the next 35 minutes he was, detained, questioned by the police, treated breifly and transported to the PD headquarters approximately 5.5 miles away, a 12 minute drive. No report suggests that he was identified with or treated for a broken nose in the 23 odd minutes after he shot Martin until he was transported to the police station.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:13   #135
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This whole thing just shows how our once great nation is going right down the toilet. The media in this country is our worst enemy. All they do is spread lies and incite violence. People better get their heads out of their asses and start voting these people who are running our country out of office. Look for a HUGE assault on the Stand your ground laws and CCW in general. And I do believe the prosecutor folded to public pressure on this one. They don't want any trouble out of the black community. Basically, our nation is full of absolute cowards these day.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:15   #136
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You said Zimmerman was treated for a broken nose, on scene, by the PD or FD. That's clearly not true.

The timing of the aftermath may be of interest to you. As would the actual staging of the even but that's for another post.

Zimmerman was first met by SPD, on scene, at approximately 7:22pm. During the next 35 minutes he was, detained, questioned by the police, treated breifly and transported to the PD headquarters approximately 5.5 miles away, a 12 minute drive. No report suggests that he was identified with or treated for a broken nose in the 23 odd minutes after he shot Martin until he was transported to the police station.
That's it? That's what you are going with? It wasn't broken? Ok I'll concede, his nose wasn't broken he was only treated for the cut on his head and a bloody nose not a broken nose.

Well that certainly clears things up. Totally changes my outlook of the story and the evidence presented so far
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:25   #137
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That's it? That's what you are going with? It wasn't broken? Ok I'll concede, his nose wasn't broken he was only treated for the cut on his head and a bloody nose not a broken nose.

Well that certainly clears things up. Totally changes my outlook of the story and the evidence presented so far
That's very big of you. It only took about 3 posts for you to admit that your exaggeration was untrue.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:27   #138
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Alright I'm tagging out, time for someone else to feed him. Amazing.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:39   #139
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Alright I'm tagging out, time for someone else to feed him. Amazing.
Ahh, I didn't realize that you edited a post 30 minutes later adding news sources from breitbart and dailynews, and that that was your basis for your claim of having provided evidence from "EMT, Police Report, Funeral Director and the eye witness."

Did you know that you can actually find the real police reports online at the Sanford Police website? Did you know that there's been no public release of a report from any EMT agency? Did you realize that you actually didn't provide any evidence whatsoever from the Funeral Director? Do you realize that you've only intimated about the anonymous testimony of a single eye-witness (note: you haven't provided any direct reporting) and have ignored all others? Do you realize you're out of your depth?
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:45   #140
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How bout we don't and wait till all the evidence is revealed before we jump to conclusions? I know pure insanity right.
That's just insane. Next you'll be suggesting we let a jury decide!
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:15   #141
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Originally Posted by sr556m9 View Post
This whole thing just shows how our once great nation is going right down the toilet. The media in this country is our worst enemy. All they do is spread lies and incite violence. People better get their heads out of their asses and start voting these people who are running our country out of office. Look for a HUGE assault on the Stand your ground laws and CCW in general. And I do believe the prosecutor folded to public pressure on this one. They don't want any trouble out of the black community. Basically, our nation is full of absolute cowards these day.
I agree, there are people today still believe that EVERYTHING you hear from the media IS the truth and dont bother even looking further. The days of the mainstream media actually digging for the truth is LONG GONE.
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:16   #142
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Alright I'm tagging out, time for someone else to feed him. Amazing.
I doubt anyone cares to argue further with him as he is blind to any other point of view but his own interpretation of the limited information.
No need to waste any time on a closed mind.
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:37   #143
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I welcome the news of Zimmerman's arrest with open arms. If we remove race and the fact that Zimmerman is a member of the CCW fraternity. Most of us would probably find him guilty. However, I am very interested in knowing more about the facts of this case. Let's not forget that an arrest doesn't necessarily mean a guilty verdict. Plus, the "hold your ground" law shouldn't only apply to gun owners. It sound like Travon "held his ground" and kicked Zimmerman's @$$ after being chased by him. Which led to his death after a well whooped Zimmerman "held his ground" by shooting him.

However, as one poster mentioned, it is a sad day for this country. I wonder at times if Zimmerman was black and Travon was white, would this be handled and viewed differently by all of us.
GOOD post.
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:59   #144
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Actually, as a defense attorney, who would gladly represent Mr. Zimmerman, I have to agree with Flintlocker. I read all 8 pages of this and I'm not shocked one bit at the ideological and emotional rants.

The person who started the fight is relevant, and from what is available to date it's unclear who did. Once the fight is on the "victim" may only use reasonable force in defense. In other words, if in a fist fight you can not escalate with a weapon, unless doing so is reasonable under the circumstances. The reasonableness of the action is a jury question. Now if you, in defending yourself use deadly force you must prove that you reasonably feared for your life. If you are confronted by less than lethal force or you unreasonably believe the force is lethal you do not have the right to use deadly force, you can not avail yourself of perfect self-defense.

A jury will decide:

1) who was the initial aggressor.
2) if self defense was justified - was there real fear.
3) was the use of deadly force reasonable.

Remember the prosecution must prove that the right to self defense (SD) was not justified, and they must do so beyond a reasonable doubt. However, even if the right to SD existed the "victim" must be in reasonable fear and the degree of force must be reasonable and he must establish that by a preponderance of the evidence.

An example: a defendant was ambushed by 3 larger men, one of whom sucker punched him in the face, knocking him to the ground. (mind you all is is all captured on video) The puncher, who is 30 lbs heavier and 6 inches taller straddles the Defendant and begins to pummel him as the other two throw a couple of kicks to the Defendant's legs. The defendant fearing for his life pulls a gun, the puncher gets off and begins to back away, during his movement off the defendant a single shot is fired one of the three men, not the puncher is killed. The others flee.

The jury found that the defendant was entitled to self defense, and to defend himself was reasonable, however they felt the use of a gun and thus deadly force was unreasonable in a fist fight. Several jurors said in interviews, "you can't kill some one just because your getting your butt kicked."

Food for thought.


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Old 04-12-2012, 12:01   #145
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Remember the prosecution must prove that the right to self defense (SD) was not justified, and they must do so beyond a reasonable doubt. However, even if the right to SD existed the "victim" must be in reasonable fear and the degree of force must be reasonable and he must establish that by a preponderance of the evidence.

An example: a defendant was ambushed by 3 larger men, one of whom sucker punched him in the face, knocking him to the ground. (mind you all is is all captured on video) The puncher, who is 30 lbs heavier and 6 inches taller straddles the Defendant and begins to pummel him as the other two throw a couple of kicks to the Defendant's legs. The defendant fearing for his life pulls a gun, the puncher gets off and begins to back away, during his movement off the defendant a single shot is fired one of the three men, not the puncher is killed. The others flee.

The jury found that the defendant was entitled to self defense, and to defend himself was reasonable, however they felt the use of a gun and thus deadly force was unreasonable in a fist fight. Several jurors said in interviews, "you can't kill some one just because your getting your butt kicked."

Food for thought.


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Being aware that some jurors could have the type of mindset shown here, couldn't the defense attorney have presented evidence of other incidents of unarmed people having been beaten to death by a larger, stronger attacker thus proving the use of a gun in self defense in this situation was not unreasonable?
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:25   #146
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Nope. It's restricted to the particular defendant and the particular "victim", and what's in their head and heart at the moment although the D need not personally know of the V history of violence. The V history of violence is relevant, but what others did or experienced is not, unless you can present a valid expert with valid studies and it passes particular rules of evidence. It's a reasonable person standard at that moment


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Old 04-12-2012, 12:27   #147
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Being aware that some jurors could have the type of mindset shown here, couldn't the defense attorney have presented evidence of other incidents of unarmed people having been beaten to death by a larger, stronger attacker thus proving the use of a gun in self defense in this situation was not unreasonable?
The problem is more clearly explained like this: for every piece of evidence showing that a big guy killed a smaller guy with his bare hands you could present the opposite. Not useful to a jury in deciding if the D acted reasonably in the case in point they are deciding.


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Old 04-12-2012, 13:09   #148
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So of a kid comes into my shop and points a gun at me and demands money... Me being a shooter and having been through this before, and being cool headed and well trained, not feeling scared for my life as I've again been through this 3 other times, I draw my side arm and shoot and kill the kid because he's pointing a gun at me...

I could be found guilty of second degree murder?

Just asking, cause I often think about this. I'm more concerned for my staff than myself. I dont talk to the suspects anymore, I just shoot...


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Old 04-12-2012, 13:29   #149
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So of a kid comes into my shop and points a gun at me and demands money... Me being a shooter and having been through this before, and being cool headed and well trained, not feeling scared for my life as I've again been through this 3 other times, I draw my side arm and shoot and kill the kid because he's pointing a gun at me...

I could be found guilty of second degree murder?

Just asking, cause I often think about this. I'm more concerned for my staff than myself. I dont talk to the suspects anymore, I just shoot...


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Somebody pointing a gun at you is reasonable fear of your life, just because you are some badass like Raylan Givens does not change that.
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Old 04-12-2012, 13:49   #150
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Not bad ass, but I do have the right skill set. I anticipated robberies and built the store accordingly. The first time it happened I wasn't even opened a year. My partner had me retain a lawyer just in case. I kinda felt I wasted money for an attorney. The 3rd time I just happened to swing by the shop at closing and my employee buzzed the door to let someone in, when the held the door opened she shouted to me that it didn't look right. Another kid ran in with a mask and a shotgun. I drew and shot 3 times he dropped the gun and both ran off.

Later he turned up at a friends house with 2 bullet wounds and told the cops he was robbed for his crack at the street corner. Ballistics showed it was me that shot him.

I wasn't in fear for my life but for my staff. Employees start dropping when they get robbed....

But I often wonder that in court, of a prosecutor can prove because I have training and wasn't in fear for my life, and could have taken the kid at any point that they could charge me even though the kid was armed with an unloaded shotgun...


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