GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-12-2012, 08:38   #26
bmoore
Senior Member
 
bmoore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Under a regime.
Posts: 4,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible to place precision shots like that in a HD/SD scenario. What happens when a VMAX strikes a human sternum or rib? I'd much rather use something I know will reach vitals.

Yep I agree with you. Vmax's would be my last choice. Pointed soft point or JHP, even FMJ. The chances of a Vmax lacking penetration on a 200lb target would be very high in my opinion. Like in the other post I commented on, Ive seen 25lb coyote do the jump, spin, take off across the desert then crump.
__________________
RIP Okie

Last edited by bmoore; 04-12-2012 at 08:41..
bmoore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 09:10   #27
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,399
If you want to keep noise down use .223 and not 5.56, though it's not going to make much difference.

Any OTM, JSP, or JHP should be good as long as it isn't a "varmint" round.
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 09:19   #28
WoodenPlank
Who?
 
WoodenPlank's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NW Florida
Posts: 7,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
If you want to keep noise down use .223 and not 5.56, though it's not going to make much difference.

Any OTM, JSP, or JHP should be good as long as it isn't a "varmint" round.
It's not going to make a noise difference worth anything. It WILL cost you on velocity, though. Use 5.56 whenever possible.
__________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
WoodenPlank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 10:25   #29
RMD
Senior Member
 
RMD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: 20K dm above the shore
Posts: 1,081
Although my AR isn't my first or second HD option, it's loaded with TAP T2 if needed. Just got some Black Hills MK262 Mod 1 - maybe those in a 2nd mag. The MK318 has caught my interest as well.
RMD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 19:07   #30
copo9560
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 336
Maybe a bad choice but I have XM855 on hand and this would have to do. Think of it this way, if you are using an AR for HD (not my first choice) bad guy would likely get more than one hole in him anyway.

Inside home 12 guage is my favorite, followed by Glock 20 or 23.
copo9560 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 19:19   #31
bmoore
Senior Member
 
bmoore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Under a regime.
Posts: 4,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by copo9560 View Post
Maybe a bad choice but I have XM855 on hand and this would have to do. Think of it this way, if you are using an AR for HD (not my first choice) bad guy would likely get more than one hole in him anyway.

Inside home 12 guage is my favorite, followed by Glock 20 or 23.
G20, now your talking my language.
__________________
RIP Okie
bmoore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 20:28   #32
Hour13
Tah-dah!
 
Hour13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 2,116
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
Like I mentioned earlier, don't stack 10 sections of drywall 1" apart and think that's a solid test. Set them up like a house would be - 2 sheets spaced for one wall, then a second "wall" 10-30 feet away, depending on how big of a room you want to simulate. You'll be surprised what the impact on the second "wall" looks like with most loads.
Oh ya, planning on 2nd wall 10' back from the first, and a 3rd 20ft behind that.

And no the AR certainly isn't 1st choice, but if it ever becomes needed... I try to plan for the worst, as best as I can.

I sold my 870 awhile back, and until I replace it, the AR is the backup to my USP. Hopefully soon, IMO a 12ga packed with 00 or #1 buck is the ideal HD weapon. I sold the 870 due to a pair of shattered wrists making it very hard to handle. All healed now, but time & money going in all different directions right now, lol.
__________________
"I'll have a Coke..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn View Post
She can't say stupid stuff with her mouth full of sausage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hour13 View Post
I have no problem charging somebody stark nekid, with a TP tail hanging from my butt... Maybe they'll go to their maker with a smile on their face.
Hour13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 21:08   #33
C.Smith
Senior Member
 
C.Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Eastern Washington
Posts: 1,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by DScottHewitt View Post
Supposedly, M193 and M855 break up in drywall and other wall construction materials.
I have read they do not penatrate more than four layers of drywall, way less than a handgun round. As for noise don't worry about it. In a self defence situation you will more than likely get audiotory exclusion and not hear the rifle or it will be very muffled. While hunting I shoot high power rifles and only remember hearing the rifle a couple of times and of those times it was not ear shattering it was very muffled.
Corey.
__________________
Everything you do can get you killed.... including doing nothing at all.
C.Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 23:50   #34
Airhasz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Bad Axe
Posts: 535
True, but it still damages your hearing even if you cannot remember it.
Airhasz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 07:46   #35
WoodenPlank
Who?
 
WoodenPlank's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NW Florida
Posts: 7,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by copo9560 View Post
Maybe a bad choice but I have XM855 on hand and this would have to do. Think of it this way, if you are using an AR for HD (not my first choice) bad guy would likely get more than one hole in him anyway.

Inside home 12 guage is my favorite, followed by Glock 20 or 23.
Honestly, M855 is probably one of the worst choices for HD ammo in an AR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhasz View Post
True, but it still damages your hearing even if you cannot remember it.
Absolutely.
__________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
WoodenPlank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 17:18   #36
venenoindy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 1,533
I use 45gr HP Winchester brand.
venenoindy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 17:19   #37
WoodenPlank
Who?
 
WoodenPlank's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NW Florida
Posts: 7,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by venenoindy View Post
I use 45gr HP Winchester brand.
__________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
WoodenPlank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 17:46   #38
bmoore
Senior Member
 
bmoore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Under a regime.
Posts: 4,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by venenoindy View Post
I use 45gr HP Winchester brand.
Those leave the muzzle at 3600fps if I remember correctly. The same Winchester white box 45grn 22-250 leaves the muzzle at 4,000 fps. Thats ballistic for inside.
__________________
RIP Okie

Last edited by bmoore; 04-13-2012 at 17:47..
bmoore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 17:57   #39
WoodenPlank
Who?
 
WoodenPlank's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NW Florida
Posts: 7,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmoore View Post
Those leave the muzzle at 3600fps if I remember correctly. The same Winchester white box 45grn 22-250 leaves the muzzle at 4,000 fps. Thats ballistic for inside.
I bet it does some serious tissue damage...


In small game. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable using it for HD.
__________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
WoodenPlank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 17:58   #40
M&P15T
Beard One
 
M&P15T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arlington, VA.
Posts: 9,122
I keep M193 in my mags at home, but I'll probably get some 55gr. HPs from a company like Corbon or the like.

One account I read really stuck with me, it ma have been posted here, linked from here, or something I read somewhere else....can't remember.

Anyhow, in one of the first few years of the war in Iraq, a Federal Marshal was sent to Iraq to round up some clowns that had left the US and headed for Iraq. He was teamed with some Military guys, and went on a mission to grab an HVT with them.

He was told to cover the back door of the house they were going to go into, in case any tried to hustle out. He was using the ammo he had brought with him, and it was a lighter grain HP round. Shortly after the Military guys kicked in the front door, 3 guys with AKs came running out the back door. The Marshall double tapped each one in the chest as they came out, and they dropped hard DRT.

Autopsies were done on the bodies, and it was discovered that those rounds had done incredible damage inside the chest cavities....serious, grape-fruit sized areas of damage that really dropped them.

So, I would feel very comfortable with a high-velocity 55gr JHP from any good ammo manufacturer. Since SD/HD shootings are going to be at very close range for a rifle, I'm not of the opinion that heavier grain boolets are necessary.
__________________
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.

Last edited by M&P15T; 04-13-2012 at 18:05..
M&P15T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 18:05   #41
WoodenPlank
Who?
 
WoodenPlank's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NW Florida
Posts: 7,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
I keep M193 in my mags at home, but I'll probably get some 55gr. HPs from a company like Corbon or the like.

One account I read really stuck with me, it ma have been posted here, linked from here, or something I read somewhere else....can't remember.

Anyhow, in one of the first few years of the was in Iraq, a Federal Marshal was sent to Iraq to round up some clowns that had left the US and headed for Iraq. He was teamed with some Military guys, and went on a mission to grab an HVT with them.

He was told to cover the back door of the house they were going to go into, in case any tried to hustle out. He was using the ammo he had brought with him, and it was a lighter grain HP round. Shortly after the Military guys kicked in the front door, 3 guys with AKs came running out the back door. The Marshall double tapped each one in the chest as they came out, and they dropped hard DRT.

Autopsies were done on the bodies, and it was discovered that those rounds had done incredible damage inside the chest cavities....serious, grape-fruit sized areas of damage that really dropped them.

So, I would feel very comfortable with a high-velocity 55gr JHP from any good ammo manufacturer. Since SD/HD shootings are going to be at very close range for a rifle, I'm not of the opinion that heavier grain boolets are necessary.
Remember, though, many Iraqis are not built like many Americans. This goes double for Afghanis. Those light bullets might drop someone thats borderline emaciated, but probably won't work so well against a 300 pound career felon on adrenaline or drugs. Also, one incident does not a trend make.

55gr ball will work. A quality 55gr JHP should work. I feel a LOT more comfortable with bullets in the 69-77 grain range, though, and will continue to use them for serious applications.
__________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
WoodenPlank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 18:14   #42
M&P15T
Beard One
 
M&P15T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arlington, VA.
Posts: 9,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
Remember, though, many Iraqis are not built like many Americans. This goes double for Afghanis. Those light bullets might drop someone thats borderline emaciated, but probably won't work so well against a 300 pound career felon on adrenaline or drugs. Also, one incident does not a trend make.

55gr ball will work. A quality 55gr JHP should work. I feel a LOT more comfortable with bullets in the 69-77 grain range, though, and will continue to use them for serious applications.
To each their own:

At close ranges that an HD/SD situation would present, something like a 55gr. JHP moving a 3000+FPS would create serious damage, even in a huge, drugged out bad guy. In fact, such a scenario is one were I definitely would want such a load.

If you like the heavier grain rounds, by all means, go with what you're comfortable with. I myself see no need to use rounds that have been created largely based on the poor performance our service members were getting out of their M4s at extended ranges of hundreds of yards in places like Afghanistan. Every weight round has it's different strengths and weaknesses. I would love to have the opportunity to gel test a 55gr JHP and 25 yards and compare the results with those of 69 or 77 gr at the same distance.

Think I'll hunt around the interwebz and see if I can find some info of that type.
__________________
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.
M&P15T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 18:19   #43
WoodenPlank
Who?
 
WoodenPlank's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NW Florida
Posts: 7,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
To each their own:

At close ranges that an HD/SD situation would present, something like a 55gr. JHP moving a 3000+FPS would create serious damage, even in a huge, drugged out bad guy. In fact, such a scenario is one were I definitely would want such a load.

If you like the heavier grain rounds, by all means, go with what you're comfortable with. I myself see no need to use rounds that have been created largely based on the poor performance our service members were getting out of their M4s at extended ranges of hundreds of yards in places like Afghanistan. Every weight round has it's different strengths and weaknesses. I would love to have the opportunity to gel test a 55gr JHP and 25 yards and compare the results with those of 69 or 77 gr at the same distance.

Think I'll hunt around the interwebz and see if I can find some info of that type.
There's a lot of testing out there, and it all shows that the heavier OTM loads are the best overall choices. Since my go-to rifle is a 10.5" SBR, 55gr is pretty much out for me, since the muzzle velocity is barely above reliable frag threshold. The 75gr TAP T2 is a different story, though.
__________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
WoodenPlank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 18:26   #44
M&P15T
Beard One
 
M&P15T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arlington, VA.
Posts: 9,122
Ouch....

Think I'll stick with M193....nasty stuff at close range.
__________________
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.
M&P15T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 18:31   #45
M&P15T
Beard One
 
M&P15T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arlington, VA.
Posts: 9,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
There's a lot of testing out there, and it all shows that the heavier OTM loads are the best overall choices. Since my go-to rifle is a 10.5" SBR, 55gr is pretty much out for me, since the muzzle velocity is barely above reliable frag threshold. The 75gr TAP T2 is a different story, though.
Gotcha, understand the SBR limitations.

Best over all choice? Dunno. I think one must start with the idea that any SD/HD shooting is going to take place at very close range for an AR. With a 14.5-20" barrel, I'm liking the nasty damage lighter/higher velocity rounds create. Heavier grain rounds might be better for shots past 150 yards or so, but the original loading round for the M16 (M193) seems to be very nasty at 150 yards and in.

My AR has a 16" 1/9 barrel, so rounds similar to M193 are great.
__________________
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.
M&P15T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 18:38   #46
WoodenPlank
Who?
 
WoodenPlank's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NW Florida
Posts: 7,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Ouch....

Think I'll stick with M193....nasty stuff at close range.
5.56mm NATO XM193: Drywall & Ballistic Gel Test - YouTube
Yep, M193 is generally nasty when it hits above it's fragment velocities. It has experienced failures, though, even when it is at proper velocity. The heavier OTM and HP loads tend to be more consistent in their function, though, as well as offering a little more tissue damage overall.

If you're running any kind of SBR, though, 55gr quickly becomes more anemic, and you really need to look at the 69gr and heavier loads for effectiveness.

Edit to add: It's consistency that should drive people to the heavier loads. The longer bullets break and fragment at lower velocities due to the greater length. Fackler poo-pooed M193 after seeing incidents of people taking hits where it just refused to fragment. However, I've also seen documented shoots with M16s and M193 that were utterly devastating in terms of wounding. Even at close range, the heavier loads seems to offer much more consistent wound profiles than M193 and M855.
__________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Last edited by WoodenPlank; 04-13-2012 at 18:41..
WoodenPlank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 18:42   #47
M&P15T
Beard One
 
M&P15T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arlington, VA.
Posts: 9,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
Yep, M193 is generally nasty when it hits above it's fragment velocities. It has experienced failures, though, even when it is at proper velocity. The heavier OTM and HP loads tend to be more consistent in their function, though, as well as offering a little more tissue damage overall.

If you're running any kind of SBR, though, 55gr quickly becomes more anemic, and you really need to look at the 69gr and heavier loads for effectiveness.
The nice part about using M193 for HD/SD for me, is that it's the same ammo I shoot at the range. Not that heavier or lighter rounds will have any substantial POA/POI issues at the ranges an SH/HD shooting will take place.
__________________
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.
M&P15T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 18:45   #48
WoodenPlank
Who?
 
WoodenPlank's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NW Florida
Posts: 7,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
The nice part about using M193 for HD/SD for me, is that it's the same ammo I shoot at the range. Not that heavier or lighter rounds will have any substantial POA/POI issues at the ranges an SH/HD shooting will take place.
Exactly. Last time I verified zero on my SBR, I saw no discernible POA shift at 50 yards (zero distance) with either 75gr TAP OR M855 after confirming original zero with M193. There was a slight shift, but it was within the margin of error of the 2" dot from the Aimpoint, plus the target was blowing in the wind a bit.
__________________
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
WoodenPlank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 18:49   #49
M&P15T
Beard One
 
M&P15T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arlington, VA.
Posts: 9,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
Edit to add: It's consistency that should drive people to the heavier loads. The longer bullets break and fragment at lower velocities due to the greater length. Fackler poo-pooed M193 after seeing incidents of people taking hits where it just refused to fragment. However, I've also seen documented shoots with M16s and M193 that were utterly devastating in terms of wounding. Even at close range, the heavier loads seems to offer much more consistent wound profiles than M193 and M855.
It's just my considered opinion that the wound profile of M193, while possibly not as consistent, is probably quite a bit nastier at close range than the heavier bullets. 55gr. JHPs would obviously be extremely volitile, with excellent consistency of expansion and fragmentation. 5.56 is a velocity dependant round, was designed to move at 3000+FPS from the beginning.

These are the ideas that pull me towards 16" and longer, 1/9 twist barrels, and M193 weight ammo. I'm even considering a longer barrel for my next AR purchase, maybe something around 18" Maybe a 20"? OUCH!! That'd leave a mark!!
__________________
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.

Last edited by M&P15T; 04-13-2012 at 18:59..
M&P15T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 18:54   #50
M&P15T
Beard One
 
M&P15T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arlington, VA.
Posts: 9,122
Ya know, as a relative newb to the AR scene, every time I get to the range and shoot at 50-100 yards with my Eotech equiped M&P15T, I am truly amazed at the accuracy when I do my part.

One time I had the chance to shoot at some 3/8" mild steel plate using M193 out of my AR...WOW!! was that an eye-opener!! Went through it like it wasn't there. I have no doubt that any 5.56 round will penetrate and do nasty damage on a human, even the light JHPs for varmint hunting, even if bone gets in the way.

I've also shot M193 through thick "bullet-proof" glass...again, right through it like it wasn't there, when the same piece was "catching" 9MM and .40 rounds out of my GLOCKs.
__________________
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.

Last edited by M&P15T; 04-13-2012 at 18:58..
M&P15T is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 19:03.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,366
418 Members
948 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42