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Old 04-19-2012, 00:04   #101
freakshow10mm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR View Post
First of all this thread is NOT a PSA. If it was, freakshow would identify his business relationship with LWD by name, thereby establishing accuracy & creditability. I sincerely believe this thread is a direct attack from some disgruntled consumer.
Look at your customer list and use "freakshow" as a hint. I'm not a disgruntled consumer. I personally have had two LWD barrels. One "tactical" .45 ACP with "tactical" slide and one .45 ACP threaded for the Glock 30. I never got to shoot the "tactical" barrel, as the project got scrapped. I've never had an issue with the G30 barrel and shot several thousand rounds of my handloads though it for suppressor demonstrations (I'm an 07 FFL 02 SOT). Your "3.5lb" trigger connectors are great products. Never had an issue with those and I've done many trigger jobs on Glocks.

Customers of mine that have bought LWD barrels from me have had vastly different experiences with your product.


Quote:
The truth of the matter, 99% of barrel issues are self induced.
63.8% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Quote:
LWD barrels are not conducive to use with SWC bullets.
No, it's not an LWD barrel issue for feeding SWC, that's a Glock issue. The feed angle is not conducive to feeding H&G type 68 SWCs. If Glock would have picked a different feed angle, they would feed them just fine.

Quote:
Auto pistols will always feed best when using a FMJ or similar profile.
I disagree. FMJ is a construction type, not a profile. Furthermore, stock piece of crap Rock Island Armory 1911s feed SWC like poetry in motion. I had one and that's all I shot in it. 20,000 or so rounds and never a failure to feed.

Quote:
LWD GUARANTEES our barrels to function flawless when using FACTORY ammunition. Try employing a little rocket science before responding to this statement. Think about it.... the barrel accepts factory loads (ie: Remington, Winchester, Federal) but not your load or your local re-manufactures load. This is telling you the issue is with your load.
I load my company's ammunition to meet SAAMI specifications. SAAMI specifications are a tolerance range and I load to the smaller range of tolerance. I'm not loading ammunition for one or two weapons, I'm loading for many different weapons all of whom have chambers cut to different points along the SAAMI specifications of their respective cartridges. I have to load ammunition so that it fits in all chambers. I have had around a dozen customers that came to me for ammunition because they tried Remington, Winchester and Federal ammunition and it didn't fit the LWD chamber. I gave them a free box of ammunition to try and now that's all they can get to run in their LWD barrel is my ammunition. The issue is certainly not with my ammunition.

Quote:
I don't care if your load fits all your other guns and your brothers guns, the issue is with your load.
No, you clearly don't care and are passing off the blame to protect your product.

Quote:
LWD will rechamber your barrel to fit your loads for $30. If this charge offends you, please tell me where on earth you can get a gunsmith to ream a chamber for cheaper? Yes, LWD formerly rechambered barrels for free however we soon realized the vast majority of rechamber requests were coming from loaders who were to lazy to change their load to fit the match grade chamber. Most barrel (chamber) issues are resolved by simply adjusting the load.
Were they too lazy to change the load or were you too lazy to machine the chamber throat to accomodate a greater range of bullet profiles? I seriously doubt the conversation went something like "no, go ahead and rechamber it. I'm too lazy to change my load" as you purport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR View Post
No, you are missing the point... completely. There are plenty of factory loads using lead bullets. LWD barrels will chamber a factory lead load, factory FMJ, factory plated yada, yada, yada. (factory, factory, factory) FYI: The factory stuff abides by certain parameters (clue)

If your load dont fit, maybe it does not meet the factory parameters?
"Factory" parameters follow SAAMI specification set for the industry. "Factory" doesn't set parameters, they follow parameters set by others. My ammunition is made to SAAMI specification tolerance on the tighter side.

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Originally Posted by JR View Post
Yes you can send us your ammo and we will ream the chamber to fit however the vast majority of loaders already reproduce loads that have no issue. If there is an issue it is usually directly related to bullet profile, OAL or a swelled case. All of these issues can easily be resolved with a simple adjustment to your reloading process.
All of those issues can easily be resolved with a simple adjustment to your manufacturing process. See how that works?

Quote:
I have a few LWD barrel customers that have successfully modified their barrels to accept SWC loads. Problem is, these barrels now lack the full support.
So what's the point then? And no chamber is truly 100% "fully" supported.

Quote:
Let me quote all the factory specs you can handle. Drop a factory round in the chamber. Notice it fits! Now make your load fit the same way.
"Factory" doesn't set specifications, SAAMI does. SAAMI is not a "factory".

Quote:
LWD supplies more Glock barrels than ALL THE OTHER AFTERMARKET MFG'S COMBINED. Less than 1% barrel purchasers have an issue. If you have an issue, see the sentence directly above this statement.
63.8% of statistics are made up on the spot.

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Originally Posted by JR View Post
I don't know what to say Steve? As you clearly pointed out, the issue your friend had was clearly a reloading (sizing) issue. Easily overcome if you ask me.
We offer custom reaming service for those that are not willing to adjust their loads. We just stopped doing the reams for free. EVERY other barrel manufacture charges for mods. They charge more for the barrel and more for the mod? What gives?
Never had to have a KKM or Storm Lake barrel get sent back to get the chamber reworked, even if you want to toss around the "match grade" marketing crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR View Post
I chalk it up to the 80/20 rule even though our sales reflect far better than that (more like 95/5). LWD is the uncontested aftermarket barrel providers of this industry.
Factory ammo fits and functions flawless, we guarantee it.
If your favorite load has an issue we will modify the chamber because I cant convince you the issue is with your load, not the barrel chamber.
I cant do any more than that.
"Factory" ammunition? I've got the same exact licensing as Remington Arms Company (I have a copy of their FFL on file). We are both 07/02. Your point?

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Originally Posted by JR View Post
You are clearly wrong. I care. I care enough to try and explane what the real issues are. I am truly amazed (a few of) you guys think otherwise?
It's always someone else's fault, isn't it?

Quote:
Maybe we could compromise? Factory ammo fits the LWD chamber and your reload does not. Lets all join together and get the factory to change their loads! This way LWD will change their chambers to fit the new factory loads (and your reloads too).
"Factory" isn't handloads. Both are made to fit SAAMI specification. You are clearly out of touch with why customers buy your product in the first place.
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Last edited by freakshow10mm; 04-19-2012 at 00:05..
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Old 04-19-2012, 00:15   #102
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JR

Staying aside from the debate. I'd like to just say that in the past I have owned 3 LWD barrels in 2 different calibers (one a 40-9) and had relatively zero problems. I took a chance going with the current one knowing the issues some had had with short throating buying one for my G34. The reason is I wanted to stay with my proven 9mm 135g RN Bear Creek moly load at 1.150 OAL for standardization. Every single 9mm gun I have owned (8 total) and countless others owned by friends that I have passed my load to has been able to digest this load flawlessly.
I won't lie that I had hesitation to getting a LWD and was actively looking for a KKM for the possible issues. However in the end decided that because of my loads record in other barrels, and my previous experience with your products. I would save the money as go with the LWD.
Well I gave my experience in my first post of this thread. No go at 1.150, OK at 1.130 OAL.
Was I happy? Not really, it defeated my intent on going with the aftermarket in the first place. "Having a single load that worked in all my 9mm firearms". No matter, I prepared several dummies to ship out to you folks to along with my barrel, confident that LWD would fix it up and happy days would be in the horizon and all I would be out was a little extra time and shipping cost. I check your website for the shipping address and find out you all are charging $30 to ream it out!
Now realize my view... that cost isn't advertised at check out when purchasing and that cost plus shipping would have gotten me to the cost of a KKM, actually less and given me a barrel that I believe would had got me to my objective in the first place. My belief based of trying my load in 4 barrels all KKMs own by various friends at my club and my own KKM G19.
Am I sorely disappointed? Well yes... will it affect my decision in the future to recommend a LWD barrel to anyone in the future? Maybe... I can't say enough good things of the 40-9 G27 barrel I once owned and shot over 18K rounds through, all FMJ. It was flawless...
This experience with my G34 though is less to be desired. I'm still on hopes of being able to load my same previous OAL for 9mm. The thought of the cost though makes me wonder if it's worth the trouble in the first place and just ditching the LWD at a slight loss and just getting the KKM.

My 2 cents...

Respectfully,

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Last edited by Boxerglocker; 04-19-2012 at 00:18..
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:06   #103
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Freakshow10mm makes some very good points.

We don't know where the LWD barrels are being made or if it has been disclosed not a lot of people know. Within any of those manufacturing plants there are variance tolerances that these goods are built within. From my experience with clients doing business overseas, there is a constant battle with the shops to meet those specs and to find the defective ones within the shipments. One client told me that anything near the middle or bottom of the package usually had some QC issues. So limits are imposed on these "manufacturers" and if the sampled number of product contains dimensions outside of the specs in the contract the whole shipment is refused. If LWD specs minimum SAAMI specs in their contract for their "Match grade" barrels is it not possible that some of the units will come in at less than minumum SAAMI? The obvious answer is yes.

Possible solution:

Where 1/1000 mean a big deal for the reloaders, would it be possible to inspect the barrels once they hit LWD and before packaging?

Is it possible to market two different applications for these barrels? One would be the "match grade" barrel with the minimum specs and anther one with a fancy name like "combat grade" or whatever that is made to maximum SAAMI specs. Since there is a range within SAAMI specs this approach would seem to be like making lemonade from the lemons. Many companies have made innovations to their products based on customer input and have been able to expand markets and have repeat sales to the same customers.

OR

LWD can contain to assert that the percentage (doubt that it is the 1% claimed) that has a failure with LWD barrels are incompetent in the pursuit of the hobby/job and continue to fight what the potential customers are looking for.

To me its an easy choice, but that's just my opinion.
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:34   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxerglocker View Post
JR

Staying aside from the debate. I'd like to just say that in the past I have owned 3 LWD barrels in 2 different calibers (one a 40-9) and had relatively zero problems. I took a chance going with the current one knowing the issues some had had with short throating buying one for my G34. The reason is I wanted to stay with my proven 9mm 135g RN Bear Creek moly load at 1.150 OAL for standardization. Every single 9mm gun I have owned (8 total) and countless others owned by friends that I have passed my load to has been able to digest this load flawlessly.
I won't lie that I had hesitation to getting a LWD and was actively looking for a KKM for the possible issues. However in the end decided that because of my loads record in other barrels, and my previous experience with your products. I would save the money as go with the LWD.
Well I gave my experience in my first post of this thread. No go at 1.150, OK at 1.130 OAL.
Was I happy? Not really, it defeated my intent on going with the aftermarket in the first place. "Having a single load that worked in all my 9mm firearms". No matter, I prepared several dummies to ship out to you folks to along with my barrel, confident that LWD would fix it up and happy days would be in the horizon and all I would be out was a little extra time and shipping cost. I check your website for the shipping address and find out you all are charging $30 to ream it out!
Now realize my view... that cost isn't advertised at check out when purchasing and that cost plus shipping would have gotten me to the cost of a KKM, actually less and given me a barrel that I believe would had got me to my objective in the first place. My belief based of trying my load in 4 barrels all KKMs own by various friends at my club and my own KKM G19.
Am I sorely disappointed? Well yes... will it affect my decision in the future to recommend a LWD barrel to anyone in the future? Maybe... I can't say enough good things of the 40-9 G27 barrel I once owned and shot over 18K rounds through, all FMJ. It was flawless...
This experience with my G34 though is less to be desired. I'm still on hopes of being able to load my same previous OAL for 9mm. The thought of the cost though makes me wonder if it's worth the trouble in the first place and just ditching the LWD at a slight loss and just getting the KKM.

My 2 cents...

Respectfully,

Boxerglocker
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Old 04-19-2012, 13:11   #105
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Interesting video on a Lone Wolf barrel in G21. The first part is with the LW and the second part is about a factory barrel.


Last edited by Bluescot; 04-19-2012 at 13:14..
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Old 04-19-2012, 14:05   #106
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Mind if I try to make heads or tails out of what you fellows have been saying?

Caveat – keepin mind I am not a barrel or materials expert by any stretch of the imagination.

I have a G21 and I would like to start shooting lead rounds through this gun (maybe 200–400 per month). At the advice of a few,I was told to get an aftermarket barrel such as Lone Wolf before I start shooting lead through my Glock.

Now I read this post start to finish and it seems most (not all) of you have had some sort of problem with LWB, be it a design shortcoming or a type of bullet choice. It would appear that I should steer away from LW and perhaps pick up on another such as KKM or Storm Lake. I have noticed that LW barrels are quite abit cheaper that these other two;

Lone Wolf- $109.95
Storm Lake- $160.00
KKMPrecision - $165.00

Even so, for my purposes, if it will not work properly in my Glock… than what’s the point! If I am wrong in my assessment here please let me know but I think I am going to avoid the trouble and purchase something other than a Lone Wolf barrel.

Thanks everyone

Last edited by Kentguy; 04-19-2012 at 14:07..
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Old 04-19-2012, 14:33   #107
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Originally Posted by Kentguy View Post
I have a G21 and I would like to start shooting lead rounds through this gun (maybe 200400 per month). At the advice of a few,I was told to get an aftermarket barrel such as Lone Wolf before I start shooting lead through my Glock.
I also have the G21SF and all it has ever seen is 230 gr FMJ reloads. I don't believe it has seen even a single factory round. Shoots good!

I'd like to make a suggestion: why not try some lead bullets through the factory barrel? Before you spend a lot of money on a barrel that won't improve reliability, maybe shoot 50 or 100 rounds of LRN and then clean the barrel and look for lead. The easy way to do this is with the Lewis Lead Remover:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/cid=0...s_lead_remover

I have used this device for many years on my 1911s. Yes, even 1911s will get a small amount of lead fouling over time.

I am going to check my Glock the next time I am at a pistol range with both LRN and LSWC. I just cycled some LSWC through the gun and it feeds perfectly. There is not so much as a stumble as the round runs up the feed ramp. In fact, I believe the rounds feed better in the Glock than they do in my Colts and the Colts have never failed to chamber a round.

When you use the lead remover, you will see flakes of lead caught up in the screen. From this, you can get an idea of just how much leading is really going on. My bet is that loads of moderate velocity (say 810 fps or so) are not going to lead the barrel very much.

But I could be way wrong! It is still worth an experiment. I would go slow; perhaps 50 rounds before the first cleaning.

You might consider posting a photo of your results. Some of the more experienced reloaders could give you guidance.

Richard
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Old 04-19-2012, 15:35   #108
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Pistols at dawn!

I think that JR and Adam should just duke it out; because clearly...violence is the only answer here.
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Old 04-19-2012, 15:53   #109
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I have a G21 and I would like to start shooting lead rounds through this gun (maybe 200–400 per month). At the advice of a few,I was told to get an aftermarket barrel such as Lone Wolf before I start shooting lead through my Glock.
I'd work up some test loads using hardcast lead bullets and try them out in your OE Glock barrel. Keep an eye on leading and test to see how accurate they are. My $.02.

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Old 04-19-2012, 16:06   #110
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Storm Lake are $139 at Midway.
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Old 04-19-2012, 16:35   #111
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F106 Fan & dkf,

Thanks guys, those are great ideas, I do thank you for the help.

Colorado4wheel,

I just looked on SL web site to get their price... midwayusa is almost $30 cheaper... hummm.
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Old 04-19-2012, 16:52   #112
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The SL G21 barrel is out of stock at Midway. Not surprising really as Midway is always out of stock on at least half the items I want to order from them. Kinda surprising they are cheaper, usually their prices are only inline with others with sale items or if you have a discount code.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/596...tainless-steel
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Old 04-19-2012, 18:57   #113
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Lone Wolf does offer a life time warranty on their barrels and then they go on to state that the use of reloaded ammunition will void that warranty.

That is like Ford or Toyota selling you a 4wheel drive pick up and saying that you have a warranty for 3 or 4 or 5 years, whatever the manufacturer states, but the use of the vehicle in off road settings will void the warranty. After all if you drive in on spec roads it will perform according to all known safety standards.
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Old 04-19-2012, 19:49   #114
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So it seems this whole discussion hinges on the definition of "factory". And as freakshow has stated, according to the FFL definition his factory is the same as Rem or Win or anybody else.

So I'd like to hear JR's definition of "factory" since that phrase keeps coming up as his one (and only) 'defense'...

And for the record, a SAMMI spec is a SAAMI spec. Shouldn't matter who makes the item that meets those specs. LW might want to take a look at other industries that deal with 'specs' and see how they work their biz models...
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Old 04-19-2012, 19:55   #115
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Just for an example. The SAAMI specified OAL for 9mm Luger is Minimum 1.000" and the Maximum is 1.169". That is a total range of .169" which is a LOT. Any OAL within that range is technically within spec.

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Old 04-19-2012, 21:25   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescot View Post
Lone Wolf does offer a life time warranty on their barrels and then they go on to state that the use of reloaded ammunition will void that warranty.

That is like Ford or Toyota selling you a 4wheel drive pick up and saying that you have a warranty for 3 or 4 or 5 years, whatever the manufacturer states, but the use of the vehicle in off road settings will void the warranty. After all if you drive in on spec roads it will perform according to all known safety standards.
Well, just to be fair...

If you've been into reloading and reloading circles for very long then you would certainly know or at least be aware of the high number of bone-headed mistakes made by them. Some of the these are new loaders failing to "do the homework" before jumping in with both feet, some are simple errors during the process and some are just plain stupid. Although reloaders constitute a relatively small ratio of ammunition consumed overall the KB "accident" rate is far and beyond that caused by factory ammunition. In Lone Wolf's defense, if a load from Remington, Winchester, Federal or other OEM load destroys a gun the shooter will, with rare exception, look to the ammunition manufacturer for compensation. In the case of reloaded ammunition, who is the shooter to look to? Should the barrel manufacturer, be it Glock, Lone Wolf or any other be reasonably expected to replace a barrel destroyed by reloaded ammunition? Frankly, I don't know any barrel maker that warranties against reloaded ammunition...Glock included.

As a caveat for those who don't know me yes, I reload and have longer than most here have been alive. No, I don't know JR personally and I do not own any of the LW barrels. I have however, purchased many other LW items many times and have always been satisfied with both the products and the service received. On the barrel specific thing, I have only one aftermarket Glock barrel, a G-34 comped version made by KKM. I'm aware of the very tight chamber dimensions of the LW barrel and I just accept that it is what it is. I've seen posts and comments on this forum as well as others so I've no doubt that the choice was made to ream the chambers on the minimum side of the SAAMI specs. That is certainly LW's right to do so just as it's the buyer's choice to choose which barrel to buy.

It's just a guess, nothing more, that when LW decided to offer their own barrels a conscious decision was made to offer a barrel that separated them from all the other versions available. After all, why add an identical product to a market where a number of others were already established. Now to be honest, I would have seen no harm or detriment to accuracy by cutting a few extra thousandths into the chamber and sparing the grief for both customers and themselves but as I said, it is what it is and there's no shortage of after-market barrels. The $30.00 fee to cut a custom chamber seems reasonable to me but since the back and forth shipping is a bit of hassle, were I interested in a LW barrel I'd just send them a few loaded rounds to verify the fit and handle it person-to-person from there.

If I were to offer a gentle suggestion to the good folks at LW it would be to openly stress the snug chamber dimensions (even more) on their website and to offer a case gauge for sale cut with the same reamers. Case guages are relatively inexpensive and there's probably a decent number of reloaders who know they're buying a "tight" barrel and would buy a case gauge just to check their loaded rounds before plunking down the case for a barrel. At worst, they'd have a good, snug case gauge which incidentally, is a good thing anyway.
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Old 04-19-2012, 23:04   #117
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Originally Posted by sellersm View Post
So it seems this whole discussion hinges on the definition of "factory". And as freakshow has stated, according to the FFL definition his factory is the same as Rem or Win or anybody else.

So I'd like to hear JR's definition of "factory" since that phrase keeps coming up as his one (and only) 'defense'...

And for the record, a SAMMI spec is a SAAMI spec. Shouldn't matter who makes the item that meets those specs. LW might want to take a look at other industries that deal with 'specs' and see how they work their biz models...
Exacfly, I am not going to look it up on my smart phone, but I am pretty sure SAMMI 9mm issue .355. I don't think it allows for. 356. All lead bullets and all ammo made with lead bullets would be out of spec by that standard. JR just doesn't get what reloaders need and want.
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Old 04-19-2012, 23:25   #118
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FWIW--I have 3 LW conversion barrels for my g22, g23 & g27 with no FTF issues and no changes in accuracy. However, my 9mm Bar Sto conversion barrel (drop in) for my Sig 229 made a good shooting accurate 357 sig pistol just as good in 9mm.
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Old 04-19-2012, 23:29   #119
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So it seems this whole discussion hinges on the definition of "factory". And as freakshow has stated, according to the FFL definition his factory is the same as Rem or Win or anybody else.
The term "factory" is thrown around so much in this industry it means nothing. Some purport it to represent household brand names such as Remington, Winchester, Federal, Hornady, etc but others such as Double Tap, Cor Bon, Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Superior, Set Point, or my company are not factory despite the fact all aforementioned companies are properly licensed to manufacture ammunition (and in some cases, firearms as well). When someone says "factory ammunition" I take that to mean ammunition produced by a licensed manufacturer that has a 06, 07, or 10 FFL (ammunition manufacturer, firearm manufacturer which can also make ammunition, or destructive device manufacturer, which can also make firearms and ammunition). I do everything they do, just at a smaller scale because I serve my local market.

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Originally Posted by dkf View Post
Just for an example. The SAAMI specified OAL for 9mm Luger is Minimum 1.000" and the Maximum is 1.169". That is a total range of .169" which is a LOT. Any OAL within that range is technically within spec.
True on all accounts.
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Originally Posted by D. Manley View Post
In Lone Wolf's defense, if a load from Remington, Winchester, Federal or other OEM load destroys a gun the shooter will, with rare exception, look to the ammunition manufacturer for compensation. In the case of reloaded ammunition, who is the shooter to look to? Should the barrel manufacturer, be it Glock, Lone Wolf or any other be reasonably expected to replace a barrel destroyed by reloaded ammunition?
Just because someone is a handloader doesn't change the blame for a KB.

Quote:
Frankly, I don't know any barrel maker that warranties against reloaded ammunition...Glock included.
Thompson Center does.

Quote:
The $30.00 fee to cut a custom chamber seems reasonable to me but since the back and forth shipping is a bit of hassle, were I interested in a LW barrel I'd just send them a few loaded rounds to verify the fit and handle it person-to-person from there.
And that's the decision consumers have to make. Buy a cheaper barrel that might give me problems, cause me to be inconvenienced, and shell out more money to get it right or spend a little more money on a different company that will work without further hassle. Sometimes cheapest isn't the best choice. There's a reason some things cost more money than others.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:00   #120
Colorado4Wheel
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So I went to SAMMI now that I am in front of a real computer. 9mm is .3555 and they don't give any data for Lead in 9mm or .40. .357 has unique data for Lead and Jacketed. That is what JR doesn't get. People want his aftermarket barrel to work it Lead in those Glock calibers but he doesn't account for it.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/205.pdf
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38super, glock bulge is a myth, kkm rocks, lwd barrels, match grade glory, who's a democrat?
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