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Old 04-30-2012, 13:09   #21
vaquero aleman
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Well, Hot Dog! I finally got this thing licked! The only thing left is to "pull the trigger". The Clymer 45 ACP barrel chamber reamer did it's job, although if it is not precisely the way it should be I won't know, because I am not a gunsmith(woops). Regardless, the 460 Rowland round fits just the same way that the 45 ACP did before I started cutting. So, here's wishing me luck when I go to the range.

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Old 05-01-2012, 11:20   #22
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Originally Posted by vaquero aleman View Post
I received the GA Arms 460 Rowland, it is 1300fps, not 1350fps and after I phoned them they corrected thier listing. But that is still pretty hot for a 230gr GDHP. And not bad for GA Arms considering they load below the original cartridge specifications anyway.
Georgia Arms has since changed thier listed specs for thier .460 Rowland 230gr GDHP load to 1350fps, which is, according to wikipedia, the max loading for this cartridge. This is impressive coming from Georgia Arms because they usually load below maximum specs(reiteration).
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Old 05-01-2012, 17:46   #23
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Two paragraphs from Wikipedia; the point I hope to make here is showing the difference between the pressure potential of 10mm and .460 Rowland:

The 10mm outperforms the .40 S&W by 200–250 ft/s (61–76 m/s) for similar bullet weights when using available full power loads,[9] as opposed to the "10mm F.B.I." level loads still found in some ammunition catalogs.[10][11] This is due to the 10mm Auto's higher S.A.A.M.I. pressure rating of 37,500 psi (259,000 kPa),[5] as opposed to 35,000 psi (240,000 kPa) for the .40 S&W,[5] and the larger case capacity, which allows the use of heavier bullets and more smokeless powder

There are two key elements to the .460 Rowland concept. The first is a sharp increase in cartridge maximum pressure over the .45 ACP and .45 Super. Maximum Average Pressure is: 45 ACP (21,000 PSI), .45 ACP +P (23,000 PSI), .45 Super (28,000 PSI), .460 Rowland (40,000 PSI). The result of this pressure increase is a potential for 185-grain (12.0 g) bullets to achieve 1,500 ft/s (460 m/s) MV and 230-grain (15 g) bullets to achieve 1,340 ft/s (410 m/s). The second element, in regard to M1911 type autoloaders, is to dampen or reduce the velocity of the slide to a manageable level.

What is the reason for making this point; I guess just to say that .460 Rowland is obviously the more potent of the two, uses a larger diameter bullet and that they are shot out of the same frame. I really haven't decided what the best course would be for addressing the difference in slide weight, because if a longer slide is installed, on the 21, then a longer barrel is needed and a higher velocity is attained. I don't know if that plays a role in slide velocity or not. Regardless, since I now have a G21 set up for .460 Rowland, that is the research I will engage in.

Albeit, Georgia Arms frequently runs out of components to make thier ammo, they are still an excellent ammo source and they are loading .460 Rowland. Buffalo Bore and Corbon are also excellent ammo companies and they are both loading .460 Rowland. The brass and components needed for loading 460 at home can be had from MidwayUSA and probably many other places. Yes, 10mm is making a strong showing as far as companies loading it, but .460 seems to be gaining steam.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:03   #24
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Finally got some range time(G21 converted for .460 Rowland):
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I ran a very conservative trial, only 14 rounds, Georgia Arms is in thier "out of components" mode with the .460 Rowland right now so I didn't want to leave myself short on ammo. Of course, Johnny Rowland claims that a person can shoot 45 Super or 45 ACP out of his .460 barrels, but I just don't know if I want to do that. There is a 1/16" gap between the mouth of the case and the throat of the chamber, if you load 45 ACP into a .460 Rowland barrel.

The Georgia Arms 230gr GDHP @ 1300fps shot very well out of the LWD barrel(reamed out by myself, a "non-gunsmith"). I really need the time and ammo to make a decent assessment, but I can say that I am no longer worried about how it will shoot. It shoots great. The round will definately get your attention. I couldn't believe the size of the holes that it made in the paper.

I did have several FTF's so when I got back home I immediately changed the 24# out for the 22#. I am hoping that the reduced spring weight will stop the FTF's but I have to shoot it to know for sure. The FTF's occured with and without the comp installed, so I am assuming that the 24# spring was too much for the slightly weaker Ga Arms ammo. And I had to go ahead and threadlock the comp(I am not going to tighten down the set screws, as the comp is made of aluminum) because the .460, on the first shot, loosened the threads enough to spin the comp and it was pretty tight when I screwed it on.

It was not as violent as I was expecting, so I guess the comp is a help. Again, much more shooting needs to be done. But, you definately know that you are shooting a hot round and I imagine that the 24# spring dampened the slide more than I am allowing for it. With this round you definately want to be paying attention each time that you fire. I can't quite figure it out, but even though the .460 is much more potent than the 10mm, it just didn't feel like the "smack you in the hand snappiness" that I experienced with the G20 that I had. Of course, I left the factory stock spring in the G20 which probably accounts for most of the slide smacking.

***The modification that I performed on the extractor worked very well also. I removed the depressor plunger spring, cut about one and a half curls out of the spring(about the thickness of the bearing head) and re-installed everything. The brass landed exactly where it should, out to the right. Hallelujah!

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Old 05-09-2012, 09:15   #25
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Now that I have had time to mull over my .460 shooting experience with my 21, I have come to a different conclusion. I believe that my FTF's were not caused by the recoil spring being too stiff but by the increased velocity of the slide. So, I am going to order the Sprinco "Cor bon" recoil reduction guide rod system.

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If this system fixes my FTF problem then I will be able to shoot this ammo without the porting or compensator and I will most likely install a factory length barrel for better ease of carry. I don't think that I will be giving up anything when it comes to the overall power of the .460 Rowland by using a 4.6" barrel as apposed to a longer one. And, I really like the setup of the G21 with a factory length barrel. I have found that I don't really care for the longer barrels. If I were an avid hunter...
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Old 05-09-2012, 16:19   #26
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Quote:
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... I can't quite figure it out, but even though the .460 is much more potent than the 10mm, it just didn't feel like the "smack you in the hand snappiness" that I experienced with the G20 that I had. Of course, I left the factory stock spring in the G20 which probably accounts for most of the slide smacking.
I think the reason is because of the bullet weight. 10mm compared to 45 super/460rowland is similar to the .40 to .45 acp difference. The smaller caliber and lighter bullet has a "snappier" (is that even a word?) recoil than the larger heavier round. I don't have any personnal experience with this, but I've heard the same thing said about full house .357 mag vs 44 mag rounds.

I think it is because while the recoil is bigger, it is spread out over a slightly longer duration due to the higher innertia of the bigger bullet.
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Old 05-09-2012, 16:45   #27
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Unless the comp is much better than anticipated.....I don't think it is a problem with the 24# spring. In fact I would assume just the opposite.

I would suggest shooting it with some 45ACP. The gap should not be an issue with safety. It may be an issue with reliability to fire.

Test with standard spring and standard barrel.
Test with heavy spring and standard barrel.
Test with regular spring and new barrel.
Test with heavy spring and new barrel.
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:28   #28
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I know that this is stating the blatantly obvious, but I feel that I must add this disclaimer to my thread:

In my opinion, under no circumstance, should you convert the original Glock barrel to .460 Rowland! The Glock barrel does not have the proper support for the extremely high pressure .460 Rowland. Use only an aftermarket barrel with a "fully supported chamber". This is plainly stated in the remarks of Johnny Rowland, engineer of the .460 Rowland at 460rowland.com. And it should be well known that even 45 Super can cause a KB in an unsupported Glock barrel.


Lone Wolf Distributors seems to be behind the 8 ball right now with thier shipping. I ordered a mag "spring" three days ago and it hasn't left thier warehouse yet. I ordered the Sprinco on the 11th and I received it on the 14th. I guess we just have to take it the way it's dished out and then ask for seconds.
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Old 05-12-2012, 20:03   #29
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I think you your right about the slide speed causing ftf issues. The reason most guys are running comps is to slow things down. I would keep it sprung stiff and maybe try a stiffer mag spring to bring then next round up quicker. Your ftf issues also could be related to the tight LW chamber. I've been reading some of your other post's and you haven't mentioned about how far your emptys are being ejected. That could give you a pretty good idea if your in the right range with your recoil spring.

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Old 05-12-2012, 21:23   #30
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I think you your right about the slide speed causing ftf issues. The reason most guys are running comps is to slow things down. I would keep it sprung stiff and maybe try a stiffer mag spring to bring then next round up quicker. Your ftf issues also could be related to the tight LW chamber. I've been reading some of your other post's and you haven't mentioned about how far your emptys are being ejected. That could give you a pretty good idea if your in the right range with your recoil spring.
My empties are flying about six to ten feet off to the right. And I'm running a 24# spring on a Wolff rod, original Glock slide.

On Monday-14th I received a Sprinco "Cor Bon" recoil reducer to install. I don't know when I'll see the magazine spring I ordered from LWD, they seemed to be zoned out right now.
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Old 05-13-2012, 16:09   #31
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I am so confident that the Sprinco Cor Bon recoil reducer is going to allow me to shoot 460 Rowland from my G21 without a compensator or porting that I cut down my LWD 45TH to 4.75". Essentially I just cut off the threaded portion of the barrel. I felt like that would be a lot cheaper than the $150 for another LWD barrel. Early in this coming week I will know for sure because I plan on getting some shootin hole time as soon as I pick up the package from the P.O. I really look foward to testing this beast:

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Old 05-14-2012, 13:36   #32
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I hate reporting bad news. But, we take it on the chin and keep on fighting. I received the Sprinco unit today and went to the shootin hole. I ran a full mag of BB 45 Super 185gr JHP @ 1300fps and 10 rounds of Ga Arms 460 Rowland 230gr GDHP @ 1300fps through the 4.75" LWD barrel with the Sprinco Cor Bon recoil reducer. And, unfortunately, it did not fix my feeding problems, close, but not close enough. Also, the slide to frame impact was not reduced in the manner in which was claimed. So I called Sprinco and talked to a gentleman that said "just drop it in the mail to us and we will change out the sub spring and send it back to you, just include return postage". Well, I guess I can't ask for any more than that. Except that they could have done this in the first place, but then it's not thier fault that I had to go and modify my G21 to do something that it was not designed to do. But, it shore is a purdy thang and they did throw in a free bottle of "machine gunner's lube":

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Old 05-16-2012, 05:49   #33
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I am so confident that the Sprinco Cor Bon recoil reducer is going to allow me to shoot 460 Rowland from my G21 without a compensator or porting that I cut down my LWD 45TH to 4.75". Essentially I just cut off the threaded portion of the barrel. I felt like that would be a lot cheaper than the $150 for another LWD barrel. Early in this coming week I will know for sure because I plan on getting some shootin hole time as soon as I pick up the package from the P.O. I really look foward to testing this beast:

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And; A beast it is! The Sprinco stock Cor Bon recoil reducer did not handle the 460 Rowland very well but Sprinco USA is going to upgrade the sub spring and then I will try it again.

At the very least though, my testing has shown me that shooting 460 Rowland without the compensator or porting is absolutely possible. I just have to fine tune the system. And if I want to try different recoil spring weights then I will have to purchase ISMI springs because the Wolff springs will not work with the Sprinco unit. The small end of the Wolff spring will get hung on the Sprinco sub spring cover.

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Old 05-21-2012, 09:46   #34
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I called and spoke with a Sprinco guy and the conversation was; what weight recoil spring do you provide and how do you know which sub spring to use? The guy told me that they provide a 17# recoil spring with their G20/21 recoil reducer and that they use the power factor to determine the sub spring weight. He said that the 230gr @1350fps was 230 X 1350 = 310,500 / 1,000 = 310.5 so the power factor is 310. He also said that he was working with a cartridge that another customer had sent in that was a 10MM 200gr @ 1600fps with a power factor of 320 and I found that a little hard to believe, but it was not my place to question what his customer told him. Also, he said that he was absolute about which sub spring to use for the Rowland round. Which means that they have to change, at the customer's request, the sub spring on thier Cor Bon model to accommodate the 460 Rowland. Hope so, because that 17# recoil spring lets the slide move pretty darn fast shooting 460 Rowland!

And, regardless of his statement that the 17# recoil spring is adequate for use coupled with the recoil reducer, I am going to prepare my Wolff springs for use with the reducer(small ends have to be stretched to fit over the sub spring cover). I want to have the 20, 22 and 24# springs available for experimentation, so that I get this beast properly and thoroughly tamed.

Wikipedia excerpt:
"Conversion kits co-developed by Wild West Guns and Jonny Rowland for the Smith & Wesson M&P, Glock and Springfield Armory Tactical striker type pistols, due to locking system differences, do not require use of a compensator. Slide velocity in these converted firearms is controlled with a change to the recoil spring alone. Consequently, the converted firearm is lighter and more compact than a converted 1911 type."

Glock 21, .460 Rowland - LWD(modified) 4.75" barrel, no comp-no porting, with a 22# recoil spring on a Sprinco recoil reducer(upgraded sub spring) and doubled standard magazine springs, 850 ft lbs of muzzle energy, with the Georgia Arms ammo.
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:57   #35
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:16   #36
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Georgia Arms has since changed thier listed specs for thier .460 Rowland 230gr GDHP load to 1350fps, which is, according to wikipedia, the max loading for this cartridge. This is impressive coming from Georgia Arms because they usually load below maximum specs(reiteration).
I must report that the Georgia Arms 460 Rowland 230gr GDHP will remain @ 1300 fps, from a 5" barrel. They seem to have a problem with someone, in thier logistics dept., changing thier listing to 1350 fps. But one of the gurus told me that it will not change from 1300 fps because the primer cannot handle any more pressure. And he also suggested that the "other guys that list thier 460 Rowland 230gr ammo @ 1350fps" are fudging thier stats a little bit.
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Old 05-29-2012, 16:15   #37
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From me to 460rowland.com

"I read a realguns.com article that stated that Wild West Guns offers an XD conversion kit that replaces the stock barrel with a .460 Rowland barrel of the same length. A barrel without the porting or threading for a compensator. And only a change of the guide rod and recoil spring. Will you guys be offering such a conversion?"

From Johnny Rowland to me

"Thanks for your interest in our cartridge. While I like and respect
the folks at Wild West, I am not comfortable with an unported or
uncompensated barrel. I do not believe that a spring change can
alter the recoil impulse enough to ensure long life of the guns. We
prefer and will continue to offer only ported barrels or barrels with
compensators."

Johnny Rowland
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Old 05-30-2012, 22:50   #38
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Vaquero Aleman,

Thanks for the continual updates on your project...I'm enjoying the heck out of it and learning from your journey.

Thanks Again,

Jerry
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:08   #39
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woodsloafer,

You are quite welcome. Hopefully my next post will be about success and not just another twist in the journey. If I were to accept what mr. Rowland says then I should just stop what I am doing and either put my G21 back in it's original state or buy his kit. But I never did listen to my mother, or my elders.
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:53   #40
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My attempt to crown a barrel. You can only do so much with a Dremel. I used my barrel chamber reamer to square up the end of the barrel for better accuracy, which is why there is a slight ridge on the inside tip of the barrel.
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