[Pier23]

Gentlefolk,

I confess, I need an AK primer.

Been lurking for a while and I have figured out there are low-end AKs, high-end AKs, in fact all flavors of AKs.

Arsenal is, and correct me if wrong, a builder of high-end American-made AKs in the $1-2K range, which is out of my idle slurge budget.

And for me, the pleasure of having an AK would come from having a "real" AK from Russia, but I dont know where to find that source or how much those guys run. Or if that is even a good choice to make.

Could someone explain the AK options to me? Who overseas is making "real" AKs, price, quality and what to avoid? And how to obtain?

And I guess this also gets into stamped vs. milled receivers..does this really make a difference?

And finally, I see reference to 1mm vs 1.5mm receivers. Could someone clarify THAT issue for me?

And finally finally, if all this is covered in a sticky, pls feel free to point me there. Dont want the wheel reinvented...

Thx!

[plouffedaddy]

Arsenal makes some American made guns but the overwhelming majority are converted Russian Saigas (SGL Series). They also convert guns from Bulgaria...

What does 'a real AK' mean? All stamped AKs are actually AKMs; some people don't consider them to be real AKs. To me, any gun made in a comblock country's military factory is a real AK. So, WASRs, Maddis, Norincos, Arsenals, Tulas, ect... are all real AKs.

Stamped vs. milled--unless you plan on shooting 30k or more rounds through it I really don't see receiver wear being an issue. It will affect your aftermarket part selection however. There are more options for stamped receivers as far as parts go. There's penty of stuff for milled guns too FWIW...

1mm vs 1.5mm---see above paragraph on wearing out a receiver. Probably not an issue. In the research I've seen, your barrel will need to be replaced long before a stamped receiver will...


Any well built AK will work extremely well. Perhaps you should look into what to look for when inspecting an AK... In my experience that has proven more effective in determining real world performance. I have a WASR that has never malfunctioned through thousands of rounds. I have an SGL 21 that had to have the trigger replaced after 13 rounds...

[Pier23]

Thanks, Plouffledaddy, that helps a lot.

Any country of mfg better than any other then? Does price generally reflect quality?

Part of the charm of an AK is to have it rattling around like a used Yugo...the time I played with a range AK -brand unknown - I was amazed that the thing worked at all.

I am aware much of that rattle is designed in -the effect is far different than one expects from other modern weaponry...it is a very different world.

[plouffedaddy]

The problem with going to the country of manufacture is that most (not all) AKs in the us are de-banned when imported then re-assembled here in the US. So, IMO, who assembles the kit makes much more difference. That said, Russian, Polish, and Chinese kits are generally highly regarded.

If you are buying an AK on the internet and can't inspect it, good companies to deal with are hendersondefense.com and atlanticfirearms.com.

Henderson personally inspects all their rifles before sending them out. Atlantic doesn't to my knowledge because they're a very high volume retailer, but their customer service is top notch and they'll pay shipping to return it and fix it for you should there be an issue.

[Decguns]

The closest thing to a "real" AK-47 being imported right now are the Romanian rifles built at the Cugir Arsenal. To be imported into the USA, they start out life as a low-capacity (single stack 10rd magazine) with thumbhole stock. It's all mil-spec from the chrome lined barrel to the propperly heat treated receiver. These are, in turn, converted with a small number of US made parts into legal hi-capacity rifles with pistol grips. The most infamous of these is the WASR from Century Arms, but many other companies also convert these rifles and slap their own moniker on them. These are typically pretty easy to spot since they lack the magazine well dimples most stamped AKs have.

Other "real" AKs being manufactured overseas as lo-cap sporting rifles and imported into the USA include the Russian Izhmash Saiga, Russian MOLOT VEPR, Yugoslavian Zastava PAP and Czech VZ58 (not really an AK).

[Pier23]

Ahhh...much being explained now. Didnt know an intact AK couldnt come into the US but had to be pieced together.

Well. i will see what type my LGS is selling before I bear the hit of FFL transfer and shipping fees.

[adamg01]

Originally Posted by Pier23

Ahhh...much being explained now. Didnt know an intact AK couldnt come into the US but had to be pieced together.

Well. i will see what type my LGS is selling before I bear the hit of FFL transfer and shipping fees.

If you go the online route, take a long look at Atlantic. They are the best in the business on the net IMO. If something goes wrong they will exchange your rifle or refund it down to the shipping cost and transfer fee.

[Pier23]

Thanks, all!

NOW...what would a decent mid-range AK be, and what roughly would I be paying?

What should I look for in an AK, and what should I avoid?

Again, a sticky reference would be fine.

Thx again!

[plouffedaddy]

Here's a good beginners guide:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_64/14..._in_here_.html

If you define mid-range in terms of what you're willing to pay, I'll recommend some specific models.

[Pier23]

Originally Posted by plouffedaddy

Here's a good beginners guide:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_64/14..._in_here_.html

If you define mid-range in terms of what you're willing to pay, I'll recommend some specific models.

$600-800 I guess..depends how bad the fever gets. i have just committed to a Ruger Mini 30, mainly because I can stick with the 7.62x39 that the SKS uses...so that toy is taking my current toy budget. But when I get serious about an AK, it will be $600-800 of serious I think.

[Pier23]

Originally Posted by plouffedaddy

Here's a good beginners guide:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_64/14..._in_here_.html

If you define mid-range in terms of what you're willing to pay, I'll recommend some specific models.

Super link, thank you!

[plouffedaddy]

http://www.hendersondefense.com/stor...AK47-50p79.htm

^This one's out of stock but I think you can get on the backordered list.

Pros--Milled receiver (people like this)
--Polish kit as the base rifle
Cons--non chrome lined barrel (not an issue IMO unless you shoot corosive ammo)
--US barrel

or

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct1067.aspx


Pros--Tula rifle
--Electroless nickel plated bolt carrier/bolt
--Chrome lined barrel
Cons--US made barrel

For $800-850, you could get an SGL 21 as well but I understand if you're on a tight budget...

http://circle10ak.com/arsenalrifles.shtml

[Pier23]

Originally Posted by plouffedaddy

http://www.hendersondefense.com/stor...AK47-50p79.htm

^This one's out of stock but I think you can get on the backordered list.

Pros--Milled receiver (people like this)
--Polish kit as the base rifle
Cons--non chrome lined barrel (not an issue IMO unless you shoot corosive ammo)
--US barrel

or

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct1067.aspx


Pros--Tula rifle
--Electroless nickel plated bolt carrier/bolt
--Chrome lined barrel
Cons--US made barrel

For $800-850, you could get an SGL 21 as well but I understand if you're on a tight budget...

http://circle10ak.com/arsenalrifles.shtml

Wonderful suggestions, thank you for the research!

Have to see what I have left after the Mini31 acquisition.

From your experience, what is your preference and why? I see a lot of strong comments about the Arsenal...dumb question but why is Arsenal thought so highly of? And again, from your list, what is your preference?

Thx!

[plouffedaddy]

Well, I'm one of the few that had a problem with my SGL 21; it had an out of spec trigger and had to be replaced. That said, I'm probably in the 0.0001% on that one and I bought an Arsenal SGL 31-61 since that has had 0 issues.

I would either get the Arsenal or the Polish milled. The Arsenal is about as close as you can get to a 'real' Russian AK and is built like a tank. It's is more 'refined' than any of my other AKs, but maybe AKs aren't meant to be refined ?

The Polish Milled is sold by Century but they do not assemble them so that's a big plus. Milled rifles obviously have less recoil and the Polish kits are high quality.

The Tula looks very promising and I especially like the electroless nickel finish on the bolt/bolt carrier but I don't know who the builder is so that makes me question it. That said, if you like it go for it because as I said earlier---Atlantic is awesome to deal with and stands behind all their products.

SGL 21 (still waiting on my Deltapoint red dot...):


SGL 31

[Pier23]

Again, great info, Pouffledaddy...have to see where my play fund is..I have been on a spree of late and the bank acct has been taking a hit.

[bwhitt03]

Originally Posted by Pier23

$600-800 I guess..depends how bad the fever gets. i have just committed to a Ruger Mini 30, mainly because I can stick with the 7.62x39 that the SKS uses...so that toy is taking my current toy budget. But when I get serious about an AK, it will be $600-800 of serious I think.

I bought my SGL 21 in Feb for $856 out the door. I've heard that Arsenal has since raised their prices $50-75. When I began shopping around,November 2011, WASR's were going for $399-450. As someone already stated some WASR's are going for around $500 now. So depending on your financial situation and how long you wait $600-800 WASR's may be in this range. My only complaint thus far with my 21 is the finish is crap for an $800+ gun. If I could do it over I'd have saved a little more and went with the 21-94(folding stock).

[Markasaurus]

I own two WASR's, one single stack and one double. (I'll splain in a minute). The SS cost me $400 and i decided i had to have a double stack so i just bought it for $569. (You can find them a lot cheaper and my advice is if you decide you want one, get it sooner not later).



Here's my single stack wasr.

The WASR's now are much better assembled then in the recent past. They have chrome lined barrels (an important thing, to me) and not all AK's do - even ones that cost more. The ones now have either brand new or surplus trunions (my SS has "1967" , presumably the year it got made in Romania) and brand new stamped receivers (1 mm sheet). I have examined Arsenal AK's, Saigas and Chinese and the internals are identical. You may do the same and you will notice slightly better fit and a nicer finish but that is what you are paying for if you buy a more expensive AK.

The finish on mine was unsatisfactory to me, so i refinished the metal with gunkote for $25 and a days work (and it was fun learning how to detail strip an AK - it is really easy, the monkey with the AK from the viral video could do it).

I like the wood furniture even though the stuff on the WASR is barely adequate, so i refinished that too. And again it was fun, and cheap. $20 on stain and Formby's tung finish (10 coats) and it looks nice.

I have over 1000 rounds on the double stack, with no misfires at all. NONE. (On my Stag AR/m4ery, at over twice the price i have had 5 misfires plus a doubling issue that required replacing the trigger. Did it myself, lifetime warranty or not, the parts cost less then shipping would have.)


The important difference on any other AK you might pick is going to be price. You can choose to buy a milled AK and I have considered it, but someone said you will shoot out the barrel before you wear out a properly made AKM (sheet metal receiver) and i believe they are right. (Except 25,000-30,000 rounds through any properly made AK).

If you go with a WASR, remember the single stack (SS) is much. much cheaper because most people don't want one. That said, the only difference in the SS vs the double stack model (DS) is the magazine well is narrower and the mag guides are wider. So they will not accept the standard AK mags the other 150 million AK's on the planet use, you can only use the single stack ones.

To fix this, all you need is a dremel tool, some patience and mechanical aptitude, and a double stack mag to use for a template, and just grind it out. Remember you have one shot so just do it right the first time. Someday I will do just that to the SS in the meantime, it's a reserve and parts gun.

I have two AK's for the price of one, of adequate quality. And had a lot of fun refinishing them and learning about AK's. If you want to just buy and shoot, and not bother with any of this, i'd spend the extra money, go with a Polish or Yugo AK (many of them have the 1.6 mm sheet receiver which is better) or milled AK.

[ArmoryDoc]

My advice is to just order the Arsenal and be done with it. Mine has been great. You can't go wrong with an Arsenal or a gun from Atlantic.

[WayaX]

My experience with 2 Arsenals (an SGL and SLR), and a converted Saiga, has lead me to only buy Arsenals (SLR series exclusively) from now on.

Unless you have access to the proper tools (including presses), you will not be able to convert a Saiga to the quality of an Arsenal.

The Arsenal SGL series are nice guns, and good for people who want a "Russian AK". However, the my SLR shoots circles around my SGL (same caliber). The folding stock allows it to be carried to and from the range discreetly (not an issue for some people, but it is for me).

I would sell the mini-30, since they have a good deal of issues themsleves, and fund an AK (or add it to your current budget and get 2 AKs).

[Pier23]

Great info, folks! Much appreciated!

[Markasaurus]

Bump - mod please delete duplicate post

[H&K .45 AUTO]

I have owned a total of 7 AK's over the years, including 4 Romanian rifles, a Chinese, a Yugoslavian, and an Arsenal SLR Series (Bulgarian). Three of those have been in 5.45x39mm and the other 4 were in 7.62x39mm. I've had one underfolder, one with a wire sidefolder, one with the left side folding full polymer stock, and the remainder were regular stock versions. Based upon my experience with these rifles, here's what I can tell you:

No matter what AK you get, always inspect them for canted front sight block/gas block. It's also a pretty good idea to check a particular rifle to ensure that the types of magazines you intend to use will fit properly since a lot of the currently available AK's have been modified to accept double stack mags. Another thing to look for when inspecting a potential AK purchase, is the gas piston. When you field strip the rifle, and look at the gas piston, take note of whether it is able to wiggle a tiny bit, or if it is completely stationary. The gas piston should have a small amount of play, allowing it to move slightly...This contributes to the AK's legendary reputation for reliability.

As for particular rifles, assuming that everything mechanically checks out... I have found the Romanian rifles to be a great value (as prices have continued to climb, I'm not sure how much longer the Romanian guns will continue to be such a great value). The biggest gripes about the Romanian rifles (again, assuming that it checks out mechanically) are related to appearance. The Romanians seem to put less emphasis on the looks of their guns, than other countries do. As such, expect a lot of tooling marks, sloppy assembly, handling blemishes, poor engraving, and unfinished wood components. All of these issues (aside from the poor engraving) is an easy fix for the end user, and do not detract from the fact that these rifles will run like any other AK.

Also, with regard to the Romanian rifles, you will find that some come with dimpled receivers, and others (WASR type rifles) do not. Many say it has no impact on function, others say it does. Either way, I have never owned an AK that didn't have the dimples, so I can't comment other than to say that AK's destined for military use all seem to have dimpled receivers so that is my personal preference.

Romanian rifles do usually come with a chrome lined barrel which is a big plus in my book. Some will argue that good cleaning habits make it a feature that isn't necessary, and others will say that a non-chrome-lined barrel is more accurate. I will argue that these are weapons meant for combat, not competition. A tiny gain in accuracy means little to me in this type of weapon. I'll take a chrome lined barrel over one without any day of the week.

CONT......

[H&K .45 AUTO]

Comparing AK's from different countries of origin, I will say that everything I've owned from outside of Romania, has been asthetically nicer than any of my Romanian rifles. The Chinese AK that I owned, had a nice, blued appearance to the metal, which looked very nice but I don't think a combat weapon should be blued (prone to rust). The smoothest in operation was by far the Chinese, in the sense that there felt like there was zero resistance when cycling the charging handle. That being said, I have never experienced a failure of any kind while firing any of my AK's. So, grading them all in terms of operation they are equals at 100%.

The Yugo that I owned was a nice rifle, that got traded away only because it lacked a chrome lined barrel. The Yugo and the Chinese that I owned were the only two I've had, which came with the thicker 1.5mm stamped receiver. I noticed no real adavantage to the thicker receiver, but will admit that those two rifles felt more rugged in my hands than the others.

My Arsenal is my newest AK, and is in the process of being re-worked into an AK-104 by way of the SBR process. Functionally, it offers no real advantage over any of the other rifles including the Romanians. It does feel very solid, and there is no doubt that greater care was taken in the assembly of this rifle. Someone once told me that Arsenal is to the world of AK's, what Colt is to the world of AR's... I concur. Others may do the same thing, but pride of ownership is definately way up there with an Arsenal AK.

Of the folding stocks that I've had on my AK's, I rate them as follows:

3) Wire side folder- For me the wire side folder never looked right. I couldn't warm up to it, although some will argue that it is superior to an underfolder.

2) Underfolder- Possibly the coolest looking stock configuration available. Can be uncomfortable to use, and can loosen over time. From a practical standpoint, I always liked my underfolder.

1) Full polymer side folder- No doubt about it...The cream of the crop. This is the stock I have on my Arsenal, and it compromises nothing. You get the benefits of a full stock, and the utility of a folder. The stock locks up 100% rock solid both opened and closed. If you want my vote for "the best" folder in the AK world... This is it. Bear in mind that it's easier to buy a rifle with this stock already installed than to retrofit one to a rifle that came without one, as it does require modifications to the receiver of the rifle.

The caliber debate is endless. I'll make it short and sweet... I love the calibers of the AK. I've never owned one in 5.56 as they are kind of an odd-duck in my opinion with mags being pricey, hard to find, and specific to the individual gun. With regard to 5.45x39mm vs. 7.62x39mm... Either will serve you quite well. The 5.45 is a very accurate round with a lot of speed behind it. The 7.62 is a time tested thumper that will turn cover into concealment. Take your pick.

In the end, there is a lot to be said about buying an AK that was assembled/modified by a known, reputable builder. I've seen some home builds that looked like factory guns, and I've seen some "factory" AK's that looked like two drunks assembled them in their garage using whatever scrap materials they had on hand. Buy a rifle put together by someone who knows AK's, make sure it is mechanically correct, and buy lots of mags/ammo.

My vote for a great "starter" AK, goes to either an older (no longer imported) Romanian SAR-1, or a Chinese MAK-90 that has been restored to accept traditional AK furniture (they come with a thumbhole stock). Make sure the sights/gas block are straight, and these rifles are good to go.

Good luck!

[Inebriated]

Originally Posted by plouffedaddy

Well, I'm one of the few that had a problem with my SGL 21; it had an out of spec trigger and had to be replaced. That said, I'm probably in the 0.0001% on that one and I bought an Arsenal SGL 31-61 since that has had 0 issues.

I would either get the Arsenal or the Polish milled. The Arsenal is about as close as you can get to a 'real' Russian AK and is built like a tank. It's is more 'refined' than any of my other AKs, but maybe AKs aren't meant to be refined ?

No, I too had a trigger issue. Wouldn't reset, if I held it back after the bolt reset the hammer. I emailed them just to let them know, and they offered to replace it. I declined, since I have a Tapco G2 in it.

I will suggest you go with an Arsenal... They're high quality rifles, truly Russian, and unlike personally converting a Saiga, there are really no compromises in quality.

I've owned WASR's, a Yugo, and a MAADI that stayed at my house for a few months while the owner was in the moving process, and I'll say that my Arsenal, while most expensive, has proven to be worth the money I paid.

[plouffedaddy]

Originally Posted by Inebriated

No, I too had a trigger issue. Wouldn't reset, if I held it back after the bolt reset the hammer. I emailed them just to let them know, and they offered to replace it. I declined, since I have a Tapco G2 in it.

I did the exact same thing. Why would I pay more for shipping than a new trigger?? Didn't make sense to me...