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Old 05-04-2012, 00:12   #51
fnfalman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD_19x9 View Post
Put one in the pipe and use the safety like the gun was designed. Practice, Practice and Practice...
If you want to talk about use the gun like it's designed, anybody who has any historical knowledge of the M1911 platform would know that the US Army did not advocate cock & lock carrying mode. Last I checked the US Army worked with Colt and John Browning on the final design of the M1911.


Quote:
If you are worried about a spouse or family member, buy a revolver.
Yeah, that's a grand idea. Let's just buy a revolver with a heavy DA trigger pull then give it to somebody who will probably never fire a shot, or at most a few shots. Somehow that'd make the gun safer and better for usage?

A DA revolver is a great defensive piece for somebody who is a student of arms, and not just for joe blow or jane blow.
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:15   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD_19x9 View Post
Put one in the pipe and use the safety like the gun was designed. Practice, Practice and Practice...
Actually, if you know the history of the 1911 you'll learn that the gun was NEVER designed to be carried Cocked n' Locked. JMB designed the gun to be carried (dare I say it) Condition 2, hammer down, loaded chamber. Please look at the pic I've downloaded and try to tell me that the original gun as it was designed by JMB was suppose to be carried Cocked n' Locked.
The Thumb Safety was only added because guys on horse back didn't feel it was safe to try and decock the gun while they were mounted. Add a thumb safety, snick it on to reholster the gun until they could get off of the horse and lower the hammer in a safe manner.
Yes, Virginia, you CAN safely lower the hammer IF you use the finger and thumb of your off hand to lower it with while pointing the gun in a safe direction. You DON'T use the thumb of your shooting hand, that's a sure way to get an ND but with the technique that I use it's impossible for the gun to go off since the finger and thumb of the off hand block the hammer from getting to the firing pin. No hard hammer contact with the firing pin, no ND, period.
I really don't care about all the Internet "Experts" that try to tell me this is unsafe because I've been doing this for over 25 years with ZERO ND's, read that again, ZERO and I think actions speak louder then words.
For carry on my person I prefer Condition 1, no contest, it's faster and frees up my off hand to fend off an attack or push a loved one out of harms way while still allowing me to engage the target. At home where my 642 Revolver is my primary I feel perfectly fine with my 1911 in the drawer in C2 so that it's only a hammer cock away from being ready.
Everyone needs to figure out what works best for them. If YOU don't feel safe doing something with a firearm then don't do it or find another firearm that you do feel safe doing it with.
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Last edited by TN.Frank; 06-03-2012 at 20:05..
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:43   #53
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While I'm not a pro, I carry my 1911 in Condition 1. I've been carrying it like this since early March. A friend of mine made me a Kydex Holster with a high sweat guard, and I had him form it around the TS while it was engaged. I have no worries of the safety disengaging, and I practice all the time drawing and flicking off the safety.
-Joel
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:02   #54
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Bringing up the Israelis doesn't prove anything other than if you want to train constantly you can employ a less efficient method. If they all trained/carried in condition 1 they'd undoubtedly be faster, with less possibility for a malfunction.
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:31   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TN.Frank View Post
Actually, if you know the history of the 1911 you'll learn that the gun was NEVER designed to be carried Cocked n' Locked. JMB designed the gun to be carried (dare I say it) Condition 2, hammer down, loaded chamber. Please look at the pic I've downloaded and try to tell me that the original gun as it was designed by JMB was suppose to be carried Cocked n' Locked.
The Thumb Safety was only added because guys on horse back didn't feel it was safe to try and decock the gun while they were mounted. Add a thumb safety, snick it on to reholster the gun until they could get off of the horse and lower the hammer in a safe manner.
Yes, Virginia, you CAN safely lower the hammer IF you use the finger and thumb of your off hand to lower it with while pointing the gun in a safe direction. You DON'T use the thumb of your shooting hand, that's a sure way to get an ND but with the technique that I use it's impossible for the gun to go off since the finger and thumb of the off hand block the hammer from getting to the firing pin. No hard hammer contact with the firing pin, no ND, period.
I really don't care about all the Internet "Experts" that try to tell me this is unsafe because I've been doing this for over 25 years with ZERO ND's, read that again, ZERO and I think actions speak louder then words.
For carry on my person I prefer Condition 1, no contest, it's faster and frees up my off hand to fend off an attack or push a loved one out of harms way while still allowing me to engage the target. At home where my 642 Revolver is my primary I feel perfectly fine with my 1911 in the drawer in C2 so that it's only a hammer cock away from being ready.
Everyone needs to figure out what works best for them. If YOU don't feel safe doing something with a firearm then don't do it or find another firearm that you do feel safe doing it with.
Very interesting.

What I wonder is, why is there a grip safety? Was that in the original design? Does it still need to be there today, given that there is a thumb safety?

I've heard of some guys deactivating it, or taping it. Apparently, it has prevented some people's gun from firing when they wanted it to go bang.

I think the 1911 is cool, and a nice design, but I do always wonder why that grip safety is there. Any info or links about that would be appreciated.

Thanks

Last edited by ithaca_deerslayer; 05-04-2012 at 08:31..
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:49   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
Very interesting.

What I wonder is, why is there a grip safety? Was that in the original design? Does it still need to be there today, given that there is a thumb safety?
Star didn't think it was needed when they designed their pistols which are very close to the JMB design. Ditto for the TT-33 Tokarev too, no grip or thumb safety on that gun, just a half cock notch for a safety.
I really don't mind having a grip safety at all on a 1911 since you really don't notice it if it's set up properly. Just an added feature to prevent discharge in case the thumb safety accidentally gets snicked off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MD357 View Post
If they all trained/carried in condition 1 they'd undoubtedly be faster, with less possibility for a malfunction.
This very thing was addressed on Episode 15 of "Student of the Gun" on the Sportsman Channel. C3 took just over 2 seconds to engage a target from concealment. C1 took 1.11 seconds, much faster. Also, if you need to use your off hand to move a loved one to safety or to fend off an attack it's much easier to do if you're in C1.
C1 is absolutely the best way to to carry a 1911.
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Last edited by TN.Frank; 05-04-2012 at 12:46..
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Old 05-04-2012, 11:46   #57
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The debate as to which firearm to carry and in what condition is an endless one, so I’ll pass. Just a comment on the most logical way to chose a handgun. The sidearm must meet two criteria; it must be practical and it must be task (or job) related. What does this mean? Well, would it be practical to expect an untrained/poorly trained person to operate a 1911 handgun, under any of its carry options? I suggest not. Would a 1911 be a platform suitable for such a person’s personal defense? Again, no.

This does not detract from the sidearm, it’s a recognition of the technical realities of its operation.

There is a world of difference between the ability to use a piece of equipment on the part of either a highly interested hobbyist or a professional soldier or law officer who undergoes rigorous, routine and repetitive training, under supervision, with their weapons.

Just a thought.
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Old 05-04-2012, 18:41   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
If you want to talk about use the gun like it's designed, anybody who has any historical knowledge of the M1911 platform would know that the US Army did not advocate cock & lock carrying mode. Last I checked the US Army worked with Colt and John Browning on the final design of the M1911.

Yeah, that's a grand idea. Let's just buy a revolver with a heavy DA trigger pull then give it to somebody who will probably never fire a shot, or at most a few shots. Somehow that'd make the gun safer and better for usage?

A DA revolver is a great defensive piece for somebody who is a student of arms, and not just for joe blow or jane blow.
We are not talking about being in the US Army we are talking about a major feature of the 1911. Why in the world would there be a thumb safety on the 1911 unless it was meant to be carried cocked and locked?? The thumb safety doesn't even function unless it is cocked. JMB did intend the 1911 to be carried Condition 1. If you choose not to, that is your choice...

Give me a break my 12 year old can use a revolver. He has no problem pulling the DA trigger. I have to say for most inexperienced shooters, pulling a DA trigger on a revolver is easier than racking the slide on a 1911 under stress...
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Old 05-04-2012, 18:49   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TN.Frank View Post
The Thumb Safety was only added because guys on horse back didn't feel it was safe to try and decock the gun while they were mounted. Add a thumb safety, snick it on to reholster the gun until they could get off of the horse and lower the hammer in a safe manner.
We are talking about the 21 century 1911, not the original design. I'm sure if JMB was around today he would approve of the Condition 1 carry for self defense. Much better than trying to rack a slide or cock a hammer when you are fighting off an attacker...

Thanks for the history lesson, I learned something about the history of the 1911 design...
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Old 05-04-2012, 20:33   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD_19x9 View Post
We are not talking about being in the US Army we are talking about a major feature of the 1911. Why in the world would there be a thumb safety on the 1911 unless it was meant to be carried cocked and locked?? The thumb safety doesn't even function unless it is cocked. JMB did intend the 1911 to be carried Condition 1. If you choose not to, that is your choice...
Yeah, and we're not talking about SWAT or armed professionals either. Just a guy and his wife. You and I have zero ideas what their lifestyle is like, what their wants, their needs, their concerns. Do you read minds?

Quote:
Give me a break my 12 year old can use a revolver. He has no problem pulling the DA trigger. I have to say for most inexperienced shooters, pulling a DA trigger on a revolver is easier than racking the slide on a 1911 under stress...
Most people can pull the DA trigger on the revolver. Whether or not the bullet that comes out would hit anything remotely close to the target, that's another story.
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Old 05-04-2012, 20:35   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD_19x9 View Post
We are talking about the 21 century 1911, not the original design. ..
Oh really? What does a 21st Century M1911 has that the original doesn't have? Let me guess, front slide serration, beavertail safety, fence border checkering front straps...

Did the swinging barrel link design change? Did the barrel bushing design change? Did the trigger mechanism change?
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Old 05-04-2012, 20:55   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD_19x9 View Post
Why in the world would there be a thumb safety on the 1911 unless it was meant to be carried cocked and locked??
I think we've already answered that for you. It's so a man on horse back can reholster the pistol safely until he can get a chance to get off of the horse and lower the hammer to Condition 2, which is the way that JMB intended the gun to be carried.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD_19x9 View Post
JMB did intend the 1911 to be carried Condition 1.
NO, he did not, his original design(as you can see from the pic I posted) had NO thumb safety, he intended for the gun to be carried in Condition 2, hammer down, loaded chamber, that's why it has an inertia firing pin, so it'd be safe in Condition 2. The ONLY reason that the Thumb Safety was added was at the request of the Military, if they'd not have insisted on it then all of the 1911's that we'd have today WOULD NOT have a Thumb Safety at all.


Here's a link that talks about it in a bit more detail
http://pistolsmith.com/m1911-pistols...-intended.html

Col. Jeff Cooper is the man we have to thank for coming up with the Cocked n' Locked carry idea. It was just a happy coincidence that the 1911 lends it's self so well to Condition 1.
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Old 05-04-2012, 22:37   #63
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Originally Posted by TN.Frank View Post
I think we've already answered that for you...

NO, he did not, his original design...

Col. Jeff Cooper is the man we have to thank for coming up with the Cocked n' Locked carry idea. It was just a happy coincidence that the 1911 lends it's self so well to Condition 1.
OK, JMB didn't originally design it that way. Most firearms go through version changes to make them better. JMB put together a great pistol and got feedback from users and like most good designers do, tried to incorporate changes into the next version.

The OP stated...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColbyoneKenobie
I want a Sig 1911 but just purchased a Gen 4 Glock 17. I know they are two different beasts, however, I want something that will go bang under stress...

I worry about the thumb safety for me, or my girlfriend, In a time of stress.

Is this a legitimate concern or is it simple enough to bypass, learn, or just keep switched off?
He was asking for feedback from the forum. I gave him my opinion, which is a very common opinion from most 1911 owners that I know. I appreciate the historical account of the 1911 design, but it doesn't matter. The most efficient way to carry or use TODAY'S 1911 is Condition 1. If today's 1911 was intended to be carried in Condition 2 it would be a DA/SA and have a decocker. If you are going to carry Condition 3, good luck with that...

And yes, thank you Jeff Cooper...
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Old 05-05-2012, 09:29   #64
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I personally think if the OP would simply get a 1911 and go out and shoot it, it'd become second nature for him to snick off the safety once the gun is on target. I've shot for so long I don't even think about such things anymore, it just naturally happens.
Not to digress but my wife is wanting to get her CCW and she'll be shooting my 642 with some light handloads. I want to get her out and let her get back into it since she's not shot in a few years. I was thinking about what I'd say to her as far as tips for shooting but I'm sure there are things that are so second nature to me that I'd forget a lot of information. Still, I guess I'll just have to muddle through and see if she remembers most of the stuff she learned all those years ago.

I think if the OP will practice he'll quickly get use to the feel of the gun and all the things that go with shooting the 1911. Especially once he gets a feel of that nice SA trigger pull.
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