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Old 05-08-2012, 08:18   #61
CJStudent
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8 years later, the ignorance about this law still astounds me.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:25   #62
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CJStudent, I couldn't have said it better myself. My sense is that it's not so much ignorance, but what people "want it to be." The IACP (International Assoc. of Chiefs of Police) were affirmatively against this law at the time of its passage, and they have taken positions since its passage which remain against it. The "full-time paid" vs. "reserves" line of debate also shows some bias - no where is the full-time paid langauge in the statute, but you will see folks keep making that argument. The "on duty" vs "off duty" comment - does the statute say that?

Let me renew my request: any written policies on reserves anyone can share with us?
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:39   #63
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8 years later, the ignorance about this law still astounds me.
It's not so much ignorance as trying to make the law say what you want it to say because you don't agree with it.

There are a few departments here still trying to deny reserves the right to carry in their policy while off-duty and while it is in the department's prerogative to state whatever they want in the policy, there have been a few fights where an agency has lost the battle in taking away statutory rights of their employees.

Heck, there is a current fight with public employers asking for passwords to social media sites of their employees. The fight is based on first amendment grounds. There is another fight about medical marijuana in the workplace in CA and what you can do as an employer.

We are holding the line but even our own legal counsel is saying they would expect a not-so-easy fight when push comes to shove.

LEOSA says if you meet those quals as set out, you are allowed fifty state carry. No on/off duty difference, no full/part time difference, no compensation mentioned, retirement has specifically been struck out to make that point, and nowhere does it say it's 50 states besides your state or 50 states as each state allows... it's just as simple as the first sentence.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:41   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nohocop View Post
CJStudent, I couldn't have said it better myself. My sense is that it's not so much ignorance, but what people "want it to be." The IACP (International Assoc. of Chiefs of Police) were affirmatively against this law at the time of its passage, and they have taken positions since its passage which remain against it. The "full-time paid" vs. "reserves" line of debate also shows some bias - no where is the full-time paid langauge in the statute, but you will see folks keep making that argument. The "on duty" vs "off duty" comment - does the statute say that?

Let me renew my request: any written policies on reserves anyone can share with us?
Try contacting Jefferson County, KY Sheriff's Office. They've pretty much led the way with reserves in KY; I know at least 3-4 other SOs send their reserves to JCSO for their reserve academy.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:35   #65
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Originally Posted by CJStudent View Post
8 years later, the ignorance about this law still astounds me.
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CJStudent, I couldn't have said it better myself. My sense is that it's not so much ignorance, but what people "want it to be."
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It's not so much ignorance as trying to make the law say what you want it to say because you don't agree with it.
Agreed wholeheartedly. I do not generally consider the requirements to be a "qualified law enforcement officer" to be vague, so long as they are taken literally and not subjected to unnecessary interpretation.
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:13   #66
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I'm a sworn uniformed armed unpaid reserve deputy (and proud of it). We only do special details, no real police work. We have been told we can NOT use our credentials in any manner to carry a firearm when out of uniform and off-duty. If I do I'll loose my badge and maybe my CCW too under the character clause option. Doesn't matter what the law says, here in this county I can't fight it.
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Old 05-08-2012, 13:34   #67
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Ship, why do you have a CCW if you can't carry off duty? What State are you in? Do other departments in your State have the same view?
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Old 05-08-2012, 14:14   #68
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Apparently my agency is one of those who say in policy that reserves can't carry under LEOSA - but they will let them drive around in a marked car in uniform by themselves... go figure that one out.

I do know that they won't let our range staff qualify anyone else who is not a retiree from our agency, even though the law says they can.
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Old 05-08-2012, 14:35   #69
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Originally Posted by merlynusn View Post
Apparently my agency is one of those who say in policy that reserves can't carry under LEOSA - but they will let them drive around in a marked car in uniform by themselves... go figure that one out.

I do know that they won't let our range staff qualify anyone else who is not a retiree from our agency, even though the law says they can.
See, that makes me glad to live in Kentucky. In Kentucky, any CCDW instructor may qualify retired law enforcement as needed for LEOSA purposes; the proof of qual is in a slightly different form of the state CCDW license (different colors, says "retired law enforcement officer", and it's free).
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Old 05-08-2012, 14:45   #70
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Ship, why do you have a CCW if you can't carry off duty? What State are you in? Do other departments in your State have the same view?
I live in a "Shall Issue" state. I have to have the CCW to carry concealed.
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Old 05-08-2012, 15:08   #71
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I understand the difference between a policy which prohibits reserves from carrying out of state (frankly, they could have that same policy for their full-time guys) vs. a policy which states that LEGALLY reserves are prohibited. It's the latter that I wholeheartedly disagree with.

Most reserves meet the LEOSA definitiion, so by law he or she is legally entitled to carry out of state.
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Old 05-08-2012, 17:18   #72
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Originally Posted by Ship A'Hoy View Post
I'm a sworn uniformed armed unpaid reserve deputy (and proud of it). We only do special details, no real police work. We have been told we can NOT use our credentials in any manner to carry a firearm when out of uniform and off-duty. If I do I'll loose my badge and maybe my CCW too under the character clause option. Doesn't matter what the law says, here in this county I can't fight it.
Does your state have a statute granting you (unpaid reserves) arrest powers? Just wearing a uniform, carrying a gun, and driving a squad by yourself isn't enough for LEOSA. There has to be a statute on the books of your state which says you have power of arrest. Simple enough to find. Just read the state statutes. If there's no statute then LEOSA wouldn't apply. That's one of the requirements.
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Old 05-08-2012, 20:12   #73
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Here's the statutory scheme in California:

Penal Code Section 830.6 provides that if a person is appointed as a reserve police officer, the person is a "peace officer." This is the same definition of peace officer as full-time guys. Penal Code Section 834 allows a “peace officer” to make an arrest, i.e., it provides a “statutory” power of arrest.
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Old 05-08-2012, 21:27   #74
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CA Penal Law defines reserves who are duly appointed under whatever appointing authority are "PEACE OFFICERS" and have all the powers thereof, including arrest and firearms carry, if the authorizing agency allows if it is not a municipality.

The only difference is the duration of the power and non-designated level 1 reserves, level 2, and level 3 reserves are only peace officers for the duration of the assignment. However, LEOSA does not talk about it being limited to 24 hour peace officers, just that you are a peace officer with certain qualifications.

So that would be the only kink in the definitions where conceivably an agency can say LEOSA does apply but only while you are on duty because that's when you are the peace officer under CA law... which then makes no sense when you go out of state, because nobody is a peace officer while out of state unless you are on official duty, which then pretty much negates LEOSA anyway since states have interstate compacts which recognize out of state peace officers as being peace officers while on official business inside their state.
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Old 05-08-2012, 21:35   #75
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Lawman, there is no kink in the definition. An agency saying LEOSA only applies when you are on duty is not even worth discussing.
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Old 05-08-2012, 23:07   #76
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Lawman, there is no kink in the definition. An agency saying LEOSA only applies when you are on duty is not even worth discussing.
Do you put it past some of the poor excuses we have for chiefs and sheriffs in California, or liberal mayors and city council, or left leaning city attorneys or county legal counsel, to come up with that train of thought?
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Old 05-09-2012, 00:33   #77
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Why do you assume this when there is absolutely no language in the statute to suggest it?
I started in law enforcement in 1978. Since that time, at least in the southwest, I have never been aware of any police officer being told he could not carry his duty weapon while on duty or while off duty in their own state. Even if that meant he had to cross state lines (to testify, extraditions etc) they are on-duty. So obviously LEOSA is meant for Off duty. The main purpose of the law was to allow active and retired officers to carry in the other 49 states, not just their own. Generally when in another state, most of us are on vacation or traveling for some non-police related reason. So you are off duty. The law doesn't need to spell this out word for word. It's just common sense.
There is also nothing in the language to suggest otherwise.
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Old 05-09-2012, 00:44   #78
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I disagree, and have paperwork to back it up. My agency, BOP, until LEOSA, did not allow off-duty carry on our credentials, and we had extremely limited (only if someone assaulted us BECAUSE of work) arrest authority off-duty. According to the US Attorney General, we meet the definitions of "qualified law enforcement officer" under LEOSA, and thus are authorized to carry off-duty on our credentials now. I have a 22 page memo on that; a mix of the memo to all of DOJ from the AG, and our agency's guidance.
Recent changes to Leosa specifically included some agencies like BOP and Amtrac in order to clarify things.

As far as reserves go. To clarify further, in NM reserves, while on duty, derive the powers of arrest from the Fulltime officer they are assisting. They cannot sign complaints, or write citations. When not actually on duty, they have no authority whatsoever. They do not have any authority to carry a concealed firearms while off duty. They are not concidered Commisioned Officers as is reqiered by NM code to make arrests. Based on this they do not meat the criteria set by Leosa. If another state wishes to handle this differently. They can do so. I'm just talking about my state.
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Old 05-09-2012, 00:48   #79
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As far as reserves go. To clarify further, in NM reserves, while on duty, derive the powers of arrest from the Fulltime officer they are assisting. They cannot sign complaints, or write citations. When not actually on duty, they have no authority whatsoever. They do not have any authority to carry a concealed firearms while off duty.
Which is almost like how CA treats its non-Level 1D reserves... but the difference is, while level 2 and 3 reserves don't get to work alone without a full time or level 1D reserve with them, or at least be in close proximity, they have full powers of arrest while on duty and they can sign arrest forms, file reports, and write citations with their name on it.

Otherwise, it's the same as what you said. They don't have peace officer status while off duty and therefore cannot carry concealable firearms off duty without CCW (for civilians) since they are not peace officers.
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:11   #80
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Does your state have a statute granting you (unpaid reserves) arrest powers? Just wearing a uniform, carrying a gun, and driving a squad by yourself isn't enough for LEOSA. There has to be a statute on the books of your state which says you have power of arrest. Simple enough to find. Just read the state statutes. If there's no statute then LEOSA wouldn't apply. That's one of the requirements.
There is no state regulation of any kind for Reserve Deputies in my state that I am aware of.
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