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Old 05-13-2012, 16:41   #41
CAcop
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How about this for a PSA. Google search consensual encounter, reasonable suspicion, probable cause. Throw in case law with each of those search terms for details on where the difinitions come from. I could write pages on each term. It is well worn case law, like Miranda.
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Old 05-13-2012, 19:44   #42
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The very act of NOT talking to the police can help to develop reasonable suspicion - would a "reasonable" person decline to answer why they might be sitting in a car, obviously waiting in said car for a length of time?

It seems that all the "don't talk to police" fans always forget that the 5th Amendment protects against self-incrimination. If you are NOT committing a crime, and refuse to answer certain reasonable questions, you "may" just find yourself getting more attention than you'd like - and citing the 5th won't get you anywhere, UNLESS you really were committing a crime.
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Old 05-13-2012, 20:14   #43
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For the "don't talk to police" guys, have you never heard of a situation where it would be advisable? I have seen several stories here where an altercation occured and the victim got arrested. Why? you ask. The victim wouldn't talk to the police while the offender told them a heck of a story. In the absence of any exculpitary information what are the police going to do?
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Old 05-14-2012, 00:42   #44
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well, at least crime in new york is down.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety
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Old 05-14-2012, 06:14   #45
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As long as those stopped don't get questioned about their immigration status.
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:06   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoadToadBoss View Post
So let me get this straight in my mind:

NYC LEOs can randomly stop people on the streets, ask them who they are and what their doing, and then search their persons and property without a warrant?

What happens if someone refuses to stop and talk? What happens if someone refuses to consent to a search? Does that become probable cause to cuff 'em and stuff 'em? Or are folk targeted who look less likely to be able to afford a lawyer?

It's really an honest question. I live in the free state of Louisiana. I can't imagine that happening anywhere here outside of (let's say) NOLA or Baton Rouge. And even there, the citizens would be in a uproar. All it would take is one news reporter to get stopped and all hell would break loose.

The article talks about how the stops are supposed to be "Random." But, are they random in same way as the TSA pad-downs are random? Are old ladies and crippled children stopped and risked for illegal substances or contraband?
It does happen here and is perfectly legal.
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:27   #47
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Terry stops are NOT random. Stop Question and Frisk forms are the way that NYPD documents them.

Police interaction with the public travels along a continuum. In the following examples, which are VERY simplistic, you will see how things start low and ramp up given the totality of the circumstances. Sometimes police / civilian interactions start at the first level and never move up. Sometimes the circumstances take the simplest of helloís and advance them all the way to the top. Sometimes they start at the worst level. I am just trying to give you a feel for how it works.

At the very base is the COMMON LAW RIGHT OF INQUIRY. In simple terms, you (the police) can say "Hi, how are you" to anyone. They can answer or not as they see fit. This interaction gives the officer no right whatsoever to detain the subject. Think of it as two people passing each other on a public sidewalk at midday.

Next level is MERE SUSPICION. Something akin to this would be an officer walking/driving past an individual at night as he stands outside of a store. Here we can stop the individual, talk to him and ask what he is doing there. Depending on the conversation and many other factors it might be nothing at all or it can move up to the next level. ďOfficer, my girlfriend is inside picking up diapers for the baby.Ē Great, have nice night.

OR, upon the above question, the individual becomes nervous, his eyes are shifting all over the place, his answers are evasive or outright lies, and his body language just screams that he is going to rabbit. Time to see some ID. It seems like itís time to move up to the next level.

The next level is REASONABLE SUSPICION. Now the officer is passing a car that is parked outside a check cashing location late at night as it is about to close. Two males are sitting in the car, the engine is running and there are multiple cigarette butts on the ground indicating they have been there a while. We are going to have a nice chat. You are going to explain who you are and what you are doing there. Your hands will be in plain view at all times, and you probably will be preemptively frisked for officer safety.

This will probably be done with backup around because I donít like to fight fair. I believe in overwhelming numerical superiority and winning. If everything checks out you are free to go. If you both are armed and in possession of stocking masks itís green baloney sandwiches and soap on a rope for you.


Probable Cause. Yup, thatís the big time. Our intrepid officer is walking past a bank in the late afternoon. It is bright, sunny and 90 degrees and he observes a male exit the bank wearing a ski mask, long trench coat, carrying a satchel, and oh, by the way there is a rigid line under that coat extending from the armpit to the mid-thigh indicating the presence of a long object. My front sight is on the center of your chest, you are issued some rather terse verbal commands and you either comply or die. Lifeís tough, itís tougher if you play stupid games.

Like I said, these are VERY simplistic examples. Interactions such as these occur on the streets hundreds of times a day. MOST donít wind up in a collar. However, the process of the interaction, of being aware of whatís happening in your post or sector, of delving more deeply into situations that seem out of place or downright suspicious, that folks is police work. Itís what you pay us to do.

You WANT these interactions to take place and you WANT your police department out there doing the job. The drug dealer we collar might be the one trying to get your kid hooked. The burglar we catch in the act might be the one that was going to hit your house tomorrow. Otherwise we get the smart aleck cracks about hanging out at the donut shop.

Bad guys donít walk the streets with name tags that say ď Jim Jones Crack DealerĒ. Bad guys try very hard to blend in and go unnoticed, most of the time. Stop and Frisk, or Terry Stops are a valid investigative tool given to the police to separate the wheat from the chaff. They are based upon rock solid case law and are way more complex than my simple examples provided to you in this post.

Terry stops are an art. There are many nuances and many have lead to some outstanding collars. They are not RANDOM as the boob who wrote the article suggest. Time of day, type of location, the subjects attire, his behavior, his reactions to inquiries ALL go into the equation and it all has to be taken in, processed and acted upon by the officer in an appropriate manner, or else anything obtained will be lost as evidence in the court process.
THAT, was one great post.
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Old 05-20-2012, 12:41   #48
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Isn't the arrogance of the ignorant amazing?
Indeed!

It reminds me of the high school dropouts who resented any of their former classmates for attending college.

Hard to believe sometimes, but then again, ignorance is most often a choice.
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Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 05-20-2012, 13:35   #49
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My Federal LE training tells me that "random" searches on the general public without any articulable facts is a great way to open yourself up for a tort lawsuit.

If you can articulate why you "stopped, questioned, and frisked" someone, then more power to them. (If you can't do that for each and every person you meet, then you have no business beign a cop IMHO...). But if you can't articulate why you stopped someone, and instead are simply leaning on the "random inspection" crutch, then IMHO you deserve that tort lawsuit for being a lazy slug who does sloppy policework.

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Old 05-20-2012, 15:58   #50
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"Stop and Frisks are a necessary EVIL,” said Ed Mullins, president of the Sergeants Benevolent Association, an NYPD union. “A lot of times it’s hard for the general public to understand.”

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/05/07...#ixzz1vRvbwzTU
So in the words of the president of the Sergeants Benevolent Association, stop and frisks are evil, but we must submit to them because they are for our own good.

Hmmmm...

All legalities aside, I'm not buying what he's selling.

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Old 05-21-2012, 02:37   #51
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But if you can't articulate why you stopped someone, and instead are simply leaning on the "random inspection" crutch, then IMHO you deserve that tort lawsuit for being a lazy slug who does sloppy policework.

that's it in a nutshell.

if you choose not to answer any questions, they use that as an excuse to detain because you're acting "suspicious."

of course, never having been in the NYPD, I don't know anything.. like a "high school dropouts who resented any of their former classmates for attending college."

what's the definition of a straw man argument again?


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Old 05-21-2012, 06:59   #52
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Just tossing this out there...

What happens when the person refuses consent to a search...?
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Old 05-21-2012, 08:29   #53
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Just tossing this out there...

What happens when the person refuses consent to a search...?
If there is reasonable suspicion and Terry applies it is not a consensual contact and you have no right to refuse.
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 05-21-2012, 08:45   #54
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ABSENT any other factors, refusal of information and consent to search do NOT equal reasonable suspicion.

If you're asking to search someone without any good reason, it's a fishing expedition and does not constitute a proper stop.

TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES and the ability of the officer to adequately state his reasoning for the stop are the key to the viability of the encounter.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:47   #55
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Well, that kind of answers the question, doesn't it?

If the officer has legal reason to search you, he doesn't need your consent.

if he doesn't, he pretty much has to ask you. It may not sound like a request (eg "I need to look in your bag."), but part of being a responsible, informed citizen is to know not only what your rights are, but when you can exercise them.

Seems to me this stop, question, and frisk business is just a riff on consensual searches.
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Old 05-21-2012, 13:05   #56
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No, it's a carefully choreographed ballet in which the police need to conduct an investigation and the civilian's rights under the Constitution are governed by a specific set of rules as delineated by the US Supreme Court and Department guidelines.
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Old 05-21-2012, 14:05   #57
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I'll put it another way.

If I'm walking down Normal and a police officer comes up to me to chat, it's unlikely I'll say anything other than hello and/or "why do you ask?" If he says he "needs" to search my bag I say "I don't consent to a search."

If the situation is such that my consent is unnecessary then the officer will proceed anyway and he should be prepared to justify his actions in court (of course, if this is done as part of a Terry Stop it'll be pretty clear that we've gone past a consensual encounter anyway...).

If my consent is required but he's not saying so, I'm covered if he decides to go ahead and search my bag.

Perhaps there's some clarification that's needed. Is a stop, question, and frisk exercise a Terry Stop by another name?
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Old 05-21-2012, 16:31   #58
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well, at least crime in new york is down.
Yep, finally. The progressives and libertarians have tried hard for years to make anarchy work in NYC, but it just never panned out.
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Old 05-21-2012, 19:11   #59
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:30   #60
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Originally Posted by Goaltender66 View Post
I'll put it another way.

If I'm walking down Normal and a police officer comes up to me to chat, it's unlikely I'll say anything other than hello and/or "why do you ask?" If he says he "needs" to search my bag I say "I don't consent to a search."

If the situation is such that my consent is unnecessary then the officer will proceed anyway and he should be prepared to justify his actions in court (of course, if this is done as part of a Terry Stop it'll be pretty clear that we've gone past a consensual encounter anyway...).

If my consent is required but he's not saying so, I'm covered if he decides to go ahead and search my bag.

Perhaps there's some clarification that's needed. Is a stop, question, and frisk exercise a Terry Stop by another name?
Yes. I was going to write this the other day but life was keeping me busy.

Where I work we do not call it stop and frisk. We call it a field interview or FI for short. We fill out a card called a field interview card and take your picture. That is if we have the time for it. Usually running your name for warrants or probation/parole status is it.

The most likely time we are going to do it in our city is if you are riding your bicycle with a backpack on in the middle of the night wearing dark clothing and have no reflectors or lights on your bike and you happen to be riding in a residential area where there have been auto burglaries and thefts.

The lack of reflectors or lights is enough for us to stop people and detain them long enough to write a ticket. Now the Terry Decision is enough for us to search for weapons. It is late at night, we are alone on patrol, contacting someone who may be trying to be as invisible as possible so they can commit crimes without detection. If a quick search turns up a screw driver we can easily articulate that is a burglary tool. Now will we charge them for it right then and there? Probably not but it does allow us to start searching their bag or person for something other than a weapon. In this case burglary tools. Since items as small as spark plug ceramic chips can be considered burglary tools we can pretty much search of anything.

The courts have been okay with this for years because they understand there is no DA or judge riding along with the officer in the middle of the night to approve an ever more instrusive search. If judges or DAs wanted to work in the middle of the night they would have become cops instead. So the courts give us discretion to search people given reasonable suspicion or probable cause. They figure if there is a problem with the search it will be discovered in court. And remember for it to get to court the person has to be arrested for something. Also remember this particular scenario involves something that started out as a vehicle code infraction that is a fix it ticket, a $20 fine. If you do not have anything on your person that is illegal expect a $20 ticket. If you have a backpack full of car stereos, iPods, and cellphones that you took out of cars expect at least a night in jail.
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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