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Old 05-22-2012, 12:34   #61
Mrs. Tink
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Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
Sure, case law is case law. But you asked why dissenters don't cite case law. Dissenters don't have personal vested interest like you do so expecting people whose livelihoods don't depend on knowing case law to provide it to counter someone whose livelihood does depend on it is lame. Dissenters don't know case law. They just know messed up situations when they see them.
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Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
A very verbose way of saying you don't know what you're talking about.

Thanks for admitting that.
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Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
Thanks but I won't spend 48 minutes of my life trying to see if you have a clue.

You've already proven that you don't.
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I believe it is lame to speak with firmness on things you don't know about.
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Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
Isn't the arrogance of the ignorant amazing?
I see G19G20's point--people who are not familiar with "case law" or whatever else your hat is hung on are not going to know this out of the box. That said, although perhaps we ordinary people "don't have a clue", doesn't mean that we're "arrogant" about being "ignorant." I for one come on here because I like to learn new perspectives and information. I freely admit that I have no clue. I would rather appreciate being educated or being informed.

I know that some folks on here choose not to speak to police as a general rule; I am not one. But when it comes to things like "stop & frisk" or whatever the seemingly-outrageous policy of the day is, it would be nice to hear about case law or other background information--even if some people are belligerent about challenging you LEOs on this, there are plenty of others who just want to know more. THEN we can all draw our own conclusions and discuss it.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:41   #62
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Originally Posted by Mrs. Tink View Post
I see G19G20's point--people who are not familiar with "case law" or whatever else your hat is hung on are not going to know this out of the box. That said, although perhaps we ordinary people "don't have a clue", doesn't mean that we're "arrogant" about being "ignorant." I for one come on here because I like to learn new perspectives and information. I freely admit that I have no clue. I would rather appreciate being educated or being informed.

I know that some folks on here choose not to speak to police as a general rule; I am not one. But when it comes to things like "stop & frisk" or whatever the seemingly-outrageous policy of the day is, it would be nice to hear about case law or other background information--even if some people are belligerent about challenging you LEOs on this, there are plenty of others who just want to know more. THEN we can all draw our own conclusions and discuss it.
To be honest we have beaten this horse until it is glue. That's why my first post was "Terry Stop. Google it."

Unfortunately there are people on this board who hate government and all government employees. I don't know why and at this point don't care. I am not going to spend hours writing pages about Terry stops and all the associated case law. It is out there at their fingertips ready to be learned. Yet none of it will never be read because it is so much more fun to trash talk.

There is ignorance due to lack of exposure and there is willfull ignorance due to arrogance.
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:56   #63
Mrs. Tink
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To be honest we have beaten this horse until it is glue. That's why my first post was "Terry Stop. Google it."

Unfortunately there are people on this board who hate government and all government employees. I don't know why and at this point don't care. I am not going to spend hours writing pages about Terry stops and all the associated case law. It is out there at their fingertips ready to be learned. Yet none of it will never be read because it is so much more fun to trash talk.

There is ignorance due to lack of exposure and there is willfull ignorance due to arrogance.
I understand all of that. And I don't want you to spend "hours" explaining anything to anyone. I just think it would be helpful if people who know things can point people who don't know things in the right direction. We don't know what we don't know. Feel free to ignore those who aren't interested or just hate everyone.

I am a federal employee so I get what you mean.
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Old 05-22-2012, 16:06   #64
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
To be honest we have beaten this horse until it is glue. That's why my first post was "Terry Stop. Google it."
That's a diversionary tactic. The conduct described in the OP has nothing in common with a Terry Stop. Nothing at all. Did you even read the OP article? The NYPD is stopping people randomly (profiling) and then using it as an excuse for pat downs and searches. A Terry stop requires at least an initial reasonable suspicion of criminal involvement to initiate contact and the pat down becomes incidental to the stop. One is random, the other is targeted based on articulable facts. Guess which is which.

Quote:
Unfortunately there are people on this board who hate government and all government employees. I don't know why and at this point don't care. I am not going to spend hours writing pages about Terry stops and all the associated case law. It is out there at their fingertips ready to be learned. Yet none of it will never be read because it is so much more fun to trash talk.
Hmm...I googled "Terry Stop" as you requested and the first result is Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
To have reasonable suspicion that would justify a stop, police must be able to point to “specific and articulable facts” that would indicate to a reasonable person that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed.
Here's the first section of the Fox News article in the OP:
Quote:
Baltimore native Chris Bilal was walking through his adopted Brooklyn neighborhood when he was stopped by a police officer. The NYPD officer peppered the 24-year-old with questions about where he lived, requested Bilal’s ID and rummaged through his bag.

“I was coming home from the Laundromat and I was stopped by the police officer. Asking me, ‘Let me see your ID. ‘Where are you from?’ ‘Do you live around here?’ ”

The officer then proceeded to rummage through Bilal’s bag of freshly cleaned and folded laundry to see if he was carrying anything illegal. The search produced nothing, and the officer sent Bilal on his way.
Nothing was found. Why? Because it was a purely random stop based on NO articulable facts other than Mr. Bilal, a black man carrying a bag, happened to be in the same area as a cop that had nothing better to do than to harrass a law abiding citizen doing his laundry.


This is NOT A TERRY STOP. This is a fishing expedition based on intimidation and NYPD has made it policy.


Quote:

There is ignorance due to lack of exposure and there is willfull ignorance due to arrogance.

Im wondering who the one displaying willful ignorance is in this thread is.


Want to try again? It's no wonder people "hate" government employees. You're a poster child for why.

Last edited by G19G20; 05-22-2012 at 16:13..
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Old 05-22-2012, 16:10   #65
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Originally Posted by Goaltender66 View Post
Just tossing this out there...

What happens when the person refuses consent to a search...?
You get to be on the next episode of COPS.
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Old 05-22-2012, 18:27   #66
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Mrs. Tink Wrote; "I see G19G20's point--people who are not familiar with "case law" or whatever else your hat is hung on are not going to know this out of the box. That said, although perhaps we ordinary people "don't have a clue", doesn't mean that we're "arrogant" about being "ignorant." I for one come on here because I like to learn new perspectives and information. I freely admit that I have no clue. I would rather appreciate being educated or being informed.

I know that some folks on here choose not to speak to police as a general rule; I am not one. But when it comes to things like "stop & frisk" or whatever the seemingly-outrageous policy of the day is, it would be nice to hear about case law or other background information--even if some people are belligerent about challenging you LEOs on this, there are plenty of others who just want to know more. THEN we can all draw our own conclusions and discuss it. "

I have no problem with people who do not understand Terry Stops or the case law involved. It is my belief that I have taken considerable time in this thread to enlighten those with an open mind who wish to learn more about this topic.

My comments, which you chose to take out of context, were directed at ONE poster in this thread who simply wants to stamp his feet and pout that such procedures are unfair. Sorry. But the adults in the fields of the courts and law enforcement have determined otherwise.
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Last edited by seanmac45; 05-22-2012 at 18:29..
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Old 05-22-2012, 22:31   #67
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A judge has granted class action status to a lawsuit. The article says that the judge is highly critical of NYPD. This was last week, and I have not yet read that court document.

Good on New Yorkers for standing up against government disdain of its citizenry.
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Old 05-22-2012, 22:38   #68
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Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
That's a diversionary tactic. The conduct described in the OP has nothing in common with a Terry Stop. Nothing at all. Did you even read the OP article? The NYPD is stopping people randomly (profiling) and then using it as an excuse for pat downs and searches. A Terry stop requires at least an initial reasonable suspicion of criminal involvement to initiate contact and the pat down becomes incidental to the stop. One is random, the other is targeted based on articulable facts. Guess which is which.



Hmm...I googled "Terry Stop" as you requested and the first result is Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop



Here's the first section of the Fox News article in the OP:


Nothing was found. Why? Because it was a purely random stop based on NO articulable facts other than Mr. Bilal, a black man carrying a bag, happened to be in the same area as a cop that had nothing better to do than to harrass a law abiding citizen doing his laundry.


This is NOT A TERRY STOP. This is a fishing expedition based on intimidation and NYPD has made it policy.





Im wondering who the one displaying willful ignorance is in this thread is.


Want to try again? It's no wonder people "hate" government employees. You're a poster child for why.
From your own link:

When a search for weapons is authorized, the procedure is known as a “stop and frisk”.
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:43   #69
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And? Why don't you explain to us what that means? When is a "search" (your word) for weapons authorized? A pat down (not a search) is authorized for weapons IF the definition of a Terry stop is met. This is why it's established law man. People have a 2nd Amendment right to bear arms so cops can assume anybody they confront under reasonable suspicions may be armed. If there's no reasonable suspicion then what are they patting people down for?
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:15   #70
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And? Why don't you explain to us what that means? When is a "search" (your word) for weapons authorized? A pat down (not a search) is authorized for weapons IF the definition of a Terry stop is met. This is why it's established law man. People have a 2nd Amendment right to bear arms so cops can assume anybody they confront under reasonable suspicions may be armed. If there's no reasonable suspicion then what are they patting people down for?
Did a judge say there was no reasonable suspicion on each and every stop?
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:18   #71
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Stop Stop and Frisk? Ray Kelly chief of police has repeatedly asked what is the alternative? Give me one?

Since 90% of the crime by minorities is on minorities..what will happen when this crime rate goes up in the absence fo stop and frisk? What will then the minority community say?

Police do not care about minority on minority crime..We are in a legal deadended feed back loop
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:01   #72
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And? Why don't you explain to us what that means? When is a "search" (your word) for weapons authorized? A pat down (not a search) is authorized for weapons IF the definition of a Terry stop is met. This is why it's established law man. People have a 2nd Amendment right to bear arms so cops can assume anybody they confront under reasonable suspicions may be armed. If there's no reasonable suspicion then what are they patting people down for?
A pat-down, aka "frisk" is a search.
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Old 05-23-2012, 08:49   #73
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A pat-down, aka "frisk" is a search.
And if he doesn't understand something as basic as the definition of a search, just how can he tell the rest of us how to do our jobs? Oh, wait - easily. Throw out some opinions that have no basis in decades of established case law from across the country, because such opinions fit his point of view. Ignore all evidence to the contrary, and simply spout off about the Nazi-like practices of today's system of policing.

Hey Sean - you and a few other are old enough to remember when things were different. You guys may have participated (or at least heard stories) of how old timers use to police. Think things are kindler and gentler these days? I know I've heard stories about working the in 70's and 80's, and honestly. - I think a lot of folks would be shocked to hear how things were done in the old days.
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Old 05-23-2012, 16:20   #74
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My comments, which you chose to take out of context, were directed at ONE poster in this thread who simply wants to stamp his feet and pout that such procedures are unfair. Sorry. But the adults in the fields of the courts and law enforcement have determined otherwise.
You know, I'm just going to give up here. I tried to be as respectful as possible when asking you LEOs who don't like it when people say "never talk to the police" to just IGNORE those folks and spend a little time enlightening people who might want to learn. Which you did; I never said otherwise. Rather than recognizing my request as such, you lambasted me for "[choosing] to take (your comments) out of context." I couldn't care less about what you think of other posters. I'm just trying to ask for a little info in general. Sorry you think I'm some hostile entity wasting your time.
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Old 05-23-2012, 16:38   #75
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You know, I'm just going to give up here. I tried to be as respectful as possible when asking you LEOs who don't like it when people say "never talk to the police" to just IGNORE those folks and spend a little time enlightening people who might want to learn. Which you did; I never said otherwise. Rather than recognizing my request as such, you lambasted me for "[choosing] to take (your comments) out of context." I couldn't care less about what you think of other posters. I'm just trying to ask for a little info in general. Sorry you think I'm some hostile entity wasting your time.
See what you get for talking to the POlice.
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Old 05-23-2012, 17:36   #76
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Mrs Tink;

I have no issues with you whatsoever. I apologize sincerely if I offended. The only person I have difficulty with in this thread is G19G20 who shows an unlimited capacity for both being obtuse as well as twisting things around in an effort to paint the police in a bad light.

It would be my pleasure to answer any questions you have to the best of my ability.
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Old 05-23-2012, 20:56   #77
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Stop Stop and Frisk? Ray Kelly chief of police has repeatedly asked what is the alternative? Give me one?

Since 90% of the crime by minorities is on minorities..what will happen when this crime rate goes up in the absence fo stop and frisk? What will then the minority community say?

Police do not care about minority on minority crime..We are in a legal deadended feed back loop
Policing in a high crime minority area is not for the easily discouraged.

The 'burbs are almost always better.
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 05-24-2012, 00:56   #78
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Mrs Tink;

I have no issues with you whatsoever. I apologize sincerely if I offended. The only person I have difficulty with in this thread is G19G20 who shows an unlimited capacity for both being obtuse as well as twisting things around in an effort to paint the police in a bad light.

It would be my pleasure to answer any questions you have to the best of my ability.
Yeah, that's exactly what I did.

Posting a video of why not to talk to cops ever and shredding CAcop's false argument that random frisks are the same as Terry Stops. Yeah I twisted it all up. Get real. Shocker that cops are always trying to justify their own bad behavior in the public eye.

"We find no misconduct." Heard that a little too often lately.

Last edited by G19G20; 05-24-2012 at 00:57..
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:48   #79
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Give the NYC cops some credit.

At least they aren't doing stop and frisk on 90 year old grandmothers or disabled 6 year old's in wheelchairs like another agency. They are actually using their intelligence, experience, and training to target people that are more likely to be a problem.

I don't like it, but demonizing the cops that are doing their job in accordance with the law is ridiculous.

Regards,
Happyguy
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:15   #80
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Yeah, that's exactly what I did.

Posting a video of why not to talk to cops ever and shredding CAcop's false argument that random frisks are the same as Terry Stops. Yeah I twisted it all up. Get real. Shocker that cops are always trying to justify their own bad behavior in the public eye.

"We find no misconduct." Heard that a little too often lately.
Well, you don't, or didn't, realize that a frisk was a search. And you still want to characterize these things as "random". As far as I can see, your only claimed evidence for that is that sometimes nothing is found: "Nothing was found. Why? Because it was a purely random stop based on NO articulable facts other than Mr. Bilal, a black man carrying a bag, happened to be in the same area as a cop that had nothing better to do than to harrass a law abiding citizen doing his laundry."

If I've read you wrong, how about you present your evidence that this program is based on random selection? No, a media article doesn't count as evidence. Neither does a single stopee's failure to understand or relay the factors considered by the cops.

Then, let's play a math game: to begin, what is the success rate of NYPD's program? "Success" means a stop that ends in an arrest or summons--they correctly picked a criminal out of the landscape.
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