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Old 05-22-2012, 20:18   #1
Matthew Courtney
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S&W M&P 15 Sport v Colt 6920

Well, as we discussed in prior threads, Louisiana Shooters Unlimited is purchasing a S&W M&P 15 Sport and a Colt 6920 for students to use during our carbine courses. We will take photos, record round counts, keep track of ammo types, document issues, and keep the rifles close together in terms of rounds down range. Every 1500 rounds or so, we will shoot the rifles for groups. Any thing else that we should measure or track over the life of the rifles to give an accurate review of the two rifles as we track their use in identical harsh training environments?

Thoughts?
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:26   #2
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Sounds neat. What is the purpose of this trial? Is it to see how the inexpensive Sport compares to a known standard?
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:29   #3
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I am looking forward to your test. What will they run for lube?
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:33   #4
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Originally Posted by arclight610 View Post
Sounds neat. What is the purpose of this trial? Is it to see how the inexpensive Sport compares to a known standard?
The purpose is to provide data so that people can accurately assess how well a couple of popular rifles might meet their needs. I also have a bushmaster xm-15 with 2200 rounds through it that I will throw into the rotation when the other rifles reach similar round counts.
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:34   #5
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Track the following, too...

parts replacement, no matter how small (gas rings, extractors, spring, etc)
Round count when lubed
Round count when cleaned, and how much cleaning done (bolt wipe-down vs field cleaning vs full strip, soak and clean)

Also, try to keep types of ammo consistent across both weapons. Would be a lot issue if students had to use class-issued ammo in those two rifles.
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:36   #6
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Originally Posted by bmoore View Post
I am looking forward to your test. What will they run for lube?
Mobile 1 for lube. Corrosion X on the exterior steel surfaces.
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:38   #7
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Mobile 1 for lube. Corrosion X on the exterior steel surfaces.
Oh dear lord, please no.

Order a few bottles of Slip 2k EWL.
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:46   #8
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Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
Track the following, too...

parts replacement, no matter how small (gas rings, extractors, spring, etc)
Round count when lubed
Round count when cleaned, and how much cleaning done (bolt wipe-down vs field cleaning vs full strip, soak and clean)

Also, try to keep types of ammo consistent across both weapons. Would be a lot issue if students had to use class-issued ammo in those two rifles.
Students have to use my ammo if they use my rifles, so both rifles will use the same amount of the same stuff, but what is being shot will evolve over time as I rotate my ammo FIFO. Right now we are into the ammo we bought in 2008(Georgia Arms 55gr fmj), but if the next 6 months are like the last 6, we will be into 2012 ammo by Christmas.
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:52   #9
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I look forward to the test as well. Do you have any expectation or a hypothesis as to how the Sport will hold up in your environment?
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:55   #10
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I'm definitely curious! The 6920 I expect shall perform beautifully. As many know, I am a fan of the Sport, for what it is intended for. I sincerely hope you guys put the screws to it, lol. Please don't puss out and tape the muzzles, etc. It'll be interesting to see "worst case" results from the lack of DC/FA.

Can't wait to see how the budget plinker holds up against the classic Colt!
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Old 05-22-2012, 20:56   #11
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Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
Oh dear lord, please no.

Order a few bottles of Slip 2k EWL.
Why would I use a lube none of my guys are familiar with and would have to learn how to use? Mobile 1 has given us 100% reliability in Bushies and Colt's, excepting only when we have tried steel cased ammo in an A-2 configured Colt H-Bar Sporter.
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:04   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Why would I use a lube none of my guys are familiar with and would have to learn how to use? Mobile 1 has given us 100% reliability in Bushies and Colt's, excepting only when we have tried steel cased ammo in an A-2 configured Colt H-Bar Sporter.
Learn to use?

One drop in each gas ring witness hole, one drop in the gas key, one on the cam pin, and a couple on a rag to wipe down the outside of the bolt carrier.

I know we don't always agree, but it's not like it's hard to lube an AR bolt, dude.
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:09   #13
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I look forward to the test as well. Do you have any expectation or a hypothesis as to how the Sport will hold up in your environment?
I hope it will last at least 1/2 as long as the Colt, without having to spend too much to keep it running. We only charge $15 a day to rent one, while POI calls for 400 rounds/day.

Our cost on the Sport is $660, which means the break even round count is 17,600 plus 400 rounds for every $15 in replacement parts.

Cost on the Colt is $1191, break even round count is 31,760 plus 400 rounds for every $15 in parts.
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:15   #14
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Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
Learn to use?

One drop in each gas ring witness hole, one drop in the gas key, one on the cam pin, and a couple on a rag to wipe down the outside of the bolt carrier.

I know we don't always agree, but it's not like it's hard to lube an AR bolt, dude.
My guys are used to running 'em wetter than that, and I doubt that they are going to change to try out the latest in whiz bang super lubes. It wouldn't be hard to show 'em, but guys who have been doing something the same way for 20+ years (some for 40 +) are not going to change because some guy on the internet suggested it.
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:15   #15
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Definitely subscribed to this thread
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:34   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
My guys are used to running 'em wetter than that, and I doubt that they are going to change to try out the latest in whiz bang super lubes. It wouldn't be hard to show 'em, but guys who have been doing something the same way for 20+ years (some for 40 +) are not going to change because some guy on the internet suggested it.
Plenty of people out there that swear by SLIP 2k, myself included. Pat Rogers' infamous Filthy 14 was lubed exclusively with SLIP. Heck, I even have a bottle of EWL inbound from Bravo Company right now.
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:37   #17
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Our guys use automatic trans fluid. A few use EWL (state Trooper AR15s)

Last edited by mixflip; 05-22-2012 at 21:37..
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:39   #18
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Interesting test.

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Old 05-22-2012, 21:49   #19
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Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
Plenty of people out there that swear by SLIP 2k, myself included. Pat Rogers' infamous Filthy 14 was lubed exclusively with SLIP. Heck, I even have a bottle of EWL inbound from Bravo Company right now.
I'll tell you what, I'll tell the guys about the stuff and let 'em decide. Even though I own the place, it is run as a republic because I depend on everyone I work with. Will the slip2k stuff work on everything? One of my guys doesn't like having 2 bottles now. He nearly had a cow when we added corrosion x, but we are under 2 miles from salt water and have flooded with Gulf water twice since 2005, so rust is a major issue. If we add a third one he may pull a Socrates routine and drink it.
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Old 05-22-2012, 21:55   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
I'll tell you what, I'll tell the guys about the stuff and let 'em decide. Even though I own the place, it is run as a republic because I depend on everyone I work with. Will the slip2k stuff work on everything? One of my guys doesn't like having 2 bottles now. He nearly had a cow when we added corrosion x, but we are under 2 miles from salt water and have flooded with Gulf water twice since 2005, so rust is a major issue. If we add a third one he may pull a Socrates routine and drink it.
I've been using it everywhere I have needed oil-type lube of late, and it's been fantastic. Everything from my Mk. 18 to my shotgun and handguns all get it. It sticks around, doesn't cook off too quickly, doesn't evaporate during carry OR storage in a safe with dessicant.

At this point, the only other lube I will use is a grease for handgun slide rails and internals of my P7. The SLiP 2k is that damn good. Plus, you can adequately lube a BCG with about 5 drops, or soak it with about 8-10, so a 4oz bottle lasts quite a while. I still have well over half my 4oz bottle of S2K gun lube left over after a year of judicious use. It's getting relegated to handgun and shotgun duty (they get less oil than the AR) and the new EWL bottle is exclusively for AR use.
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Old 05-22-2012, 22:07   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
I've been using it everywhere I have needed oil-type lube of late, and it's been fantastic. Everything from my Mk. 18 to my shotgun and handguns all get it. It sticks around, doesn't cook off too quickly, doesn't evaporate during carry OR storage in a safe with dessicant.

At this point, the only other lube I will use is a grease for handgun slide rails and internals of my P7. The SLiP 2k is that damn good. Plus, you can adequately lube a BCG with about 5 drops, or soak it with about 8-10, so a 4oz bottle lasts quite a while. I still have well over half my 4oz bottle of S2K gun lube left over after a year of judicious use. It's getting relegated to handgun and shotgun duty (they get less oil than the AR) and the new EWL bottle is exclusively for AR use.
I use grease on some handgun rails, too. I clean the pistols personally, probably because the rental/loaner pistols get used in the low round courses, so they can go a while between cleanings. I am testing an XD to see if corrosion x works on it well enough to preclude a need for oil or grease.
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Old 05-22-2012, 22:17   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
My guys are used to running 'em wetter than that, and I doubt that they are going to change to try out the latest in whiz bang super lubes. It wouldn't be hard to show 'em, but guys who have been doing something the same way for 20+ years (some for 40 +) are not going to change because some guy on the internet suggested it.
Not a real good policy to have when teaching anything. Things change, better products come out better techniques surface. Being flexible is important.

If it was me class I would edit my original post. I wouldn't think that statement would be to good for business.

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Old 05-22-2012, 22:17   #23
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Slip 2000 EWL is a really good lube. It certainly will not disappoint you, it seems thin but surprisingly does not cook off. It just didn't really solve any problems for me that Mobil 1 10w-30 can't. Mobil 1 10w-30 and ATF in a 50/50 mixture works extremely well. Keep us updated on the test, should be good info.
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Old 05-22-2012, 23:27   #24
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Slip 2000 is "neat" for sure, but I'm gonna second a mix of mobil 1 and ATF working just fine.

Hopefully this thread will last long enough to see the results of the test.
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Old 05-23-2012, 02:03   #25
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Subscribed. OP, thanks for volunteering to take the time and effort. Really interested to see how they stack up.

Regardless of what lube you use, how wet you run em, etc, somebody/everybody will bring into question the results of your testing. Its a guarantee on a GT forum . As long as you treat the rifles the same, you've maintained the integrity of the testing (from a scientific standpoint anyway).

Good luck, looking forward to it!
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