[ron59]

Originally Posted by m2hmghb

Steve that's for chemical sprays and not for a material like lead styphanate. The chemical sprays are neutralized with either active carbon or some type of chemical that causes a reaction thus making the air safe. Lead vapor is something different, it's more of a microscopic dust then an active chemical spray.

I would suggest you contact the manufacturer and check with them to see how often they suggest changing it.

In their instructions and the FAQ on the website they say that "how often to change" is not written in stone. It depends on how long you use it (per session) and the type of stuff it's having to filter, etc. They go on to say that typically it's 40 hours of use or 30 days (whichever shorter), OR if you start having more difficulty in breathing (means the filter material is saturated). They do say that if the environment is heavy with mists (maybe like Steve doing his spraying) that it will need replacing more often. I don't feel like there's *that* much smoke around me, it never really bothered me, but apparently just any little bit I'm breathing adds up week after week.

But unless they did some scientific experiment of the amount of contaminants present, I don't think they can say "change it this often", unless they're using some super conservative number.

[Boxerglocker]

Originally Posted by ron59

Appreciate that advice. I already wiped it with D-Lead Wipes thoroughly and dried with a paper towel, good idea to go over it again with swab.

But I didn't do anything with the flapper valve. I rushed through the instructions to use it, but didn't even look at cleaning instructions.

Read up on how to clean and fit yourself properly... the effectiveness is diminished substantially without proper cleaning and fitting. Condensation and build up on the flapper alone from the last use alone can cut effectiveness by 30%.

[bigbluedodge]

I used to work with lead at work (in paint and solid lead for ballast for the navy). At work when you do lead work you are put in a program that monitors your lead levels wiht blood draws every 6 months, and we have strict requirements for working around it. When working around it we do a complete suit up and either a resperatior or air fed hoods. Before we work we are required to change clothes into lead work only clothing that is kept seperate and laundered after every use, when we are done with the work we are required to shower off and change back into street clothes. A resperator will help you from being exposed to more lead, probably a HEPA filter for the gun range is all you need because it is not a vapor just a "solid" in the air. As far as getting it out of you, your body does not "Filter" it out or get rid of it on its own, the only real way to get rid of it is chelation. If you believe that you did get this from a gun range there is serious health issues with this. The range should be very concerned with this becasue everyone that works there and or uses it would be exposed and they may be held liable for it. They should be monitoring their own air and have a certified HEPA vent system to keep this from happening. I'm not sure of your situation but getting lead exposure from the gun range seems remote but again I'm not sure. Talk to your doctor, they should have all of you p[revious blood tests on file and you shoudl be able to see if this has been a slow build up or if this is an acute exposure. You can also see if and when it goes up and compair it to your trips to the gun range. You really need to track down where you are getting your exposure, lead is really bad for your bosy and will effect all your organs, your blood, and your bones. I'm not trying to scare you but you do need to know what I feel is worst case to ensure that you really look into this and not just blow it off. At work if we are found to have high levels of lead in our blood, we are removed perminatly from the lead work program, this means that we can never work with it again, that is how serious it is. As far as a resperator goes there are many ways to clean it, wiping it down each use is a great idea, but you also need to take it all the way appart and clean the internals, at work they use a dish washer for it but that is not realistic or advisable at home. Just take it all apart, this will allow proper and detailed cleaning, but also inspection of all the soft parts that can get damaged. Please talk to your doctor about this though and let him know what is going on, it's good that your wife does not have any exposure, if you have kids get them checked too, lead in children is worse then in adults, even as bad as it is. I know this is long but it is serious, look into it, do not take it for granted, have the air checked at the range others may have issues if there is something wrong there. If you fell I'm way off base here sorry, but lead poising is serious, dont just trust me google it!

Also for resperator fit, cover the filter holes and breath in it should suck into you face with no leaks, also cove rthe exhaluation valve and do the same it should hold pressure and not let it out until the pressure gets high enough to lift it off you face and leak.

PPS, if you are reloading lead bullets a resperator wont hurt, but wear gloves bacause you can absorb it through your skin! Always wash your hands before you eat, drink and even smoke if you are really concerned, but this is worst case senerio.

[m2hmghb]

BBD I have to correct you on something, there are lead vapors in the air both from the primer(lead styphnate) and from the butt end of the bullet having small amounts of lead vaporized. I don't think it's as fine of a vapor as say what come out of a spray gun, but it is a vapor none the less.

[bigbluedodge]

Originally Posted by m2hmghb

BBD I have to correct you on something, there are lead vapors in the air both from the primer(lead styphnate) and from the butt end of the bullet having small amounts of lead vaporized. I don't think it's as fine of a vapor as say what come out of a spray gun, but it is a vapor none the less.

OK, but I believe that he was not worried about that it was the lead that was in the air from the impact. However if he is worried about that too, then he will need a filter for HEPA and for vapors. Main point, it is very serious, you need to find the "source" of the lead getting into his body.

[ron59]

Originally Posted by bigbluedodge

I used to work with lead at work (in paint and solid lead for ballast for the navy).

I didn't quote your entire post for length, but will address salient points.

First, please read this short article:
http://www.utexas.edu/safety/ehs/msds/lead.html
Discussed the SCIENTIFIC study on lead levels at indoor ranges. It's from 1990, but I bet my range is at least 20 years old.

1. Where is the lead exposure coming from? HAS to be this indoor range. Tons of people reload, and shoot outdoors and don't have elevated levels. My wife's lead level is ZERO, even though I reload at home. My clothes are washed with hers. I sit on the couch and sort brass and case gauge ammo. I walk to and from the garage. Her lead level (checked just two weeks ago), was zero. No detectable amounts. The exposure isn't at home, and I don't believe it to be the outdoor range because there's dozens (hundreds) of other shooters there also without this problems. Nor is it work environment, I'm a computer programmer who sits in a new office. Again, has to be this indoor range.

2. This indoor range. As I said before, was a very old one. It does NOT have a great air exchange unit. The owner's wife told me a story way back. He was doing most of the work at the range. Running the place. Sweeping up. Shooting lots on his own. Giving classes in the range. He started having health problems and went to Dr who had his lead level checked. I don't know what the number was, but it was so high they contacted the state agency (OSHA?) who came out and looked at the place. They put new rules in place about how the sweeping up was to be done (floors wet first, etc), employees wear a respirator, etc. The owner literally was told to stay out until his lead levels came down, his wife started doing much of the work there. I guess that agency figured that most shooters would not be there that often or something that it would matter? But the range employee I talked to on Thursday said they were to wear respirators when in the range. Of course, they're there on a daily basis, whereas the vast majority of shooters probably aren't there nearly as often (once a week) for as long (1.5 - 2 hours) as myself.

2a. Previous blood tests. Never had lead levels checked previously. It is not typically done at annual exams (at least for adults, possibly children) unless specifically requested. Plus, I'd only had one physical exam (in 2005) in the last 15 years probably. I'm seldom sick and when younger didn't bother to get checkups.

3. Lead levels not coming down without chelation. So untrue. Mine went from 38 to 34 in 3 weeks without shooting. I saw untold stories of folks claiming to go from 40 to sub-20 (normal) in 6 months or so by avoiding the exposure. Or the guys who went from mid-30s to the teens WHILE still shooting at indoor range and wearing respirator. It might come down much faster via chelation when super elevated, but it certainly can come down without it. There are plenty of websites that talk about certain foods which speed it up. They only use Chelation when levels are very high. And my Dr agreed with my plan about continuing to shoot, using respirator, and re-checking in 4 months. I don't want to quote the article of above because of GT's TOS, but Search the page for this: "Usually, the level drops quickly at first", it indicates that the body DOES process lead. Lead stored in bones is not dangerous as lead in blood, and the kidney processes that.

4. My concerns at the range. Are NOT with "lead contacting targets". I do shoot moly-coated bullets, and I'm shooting at targets 10 yards away.... that are paper and the bullet then continues to the steel backstop 25 yards away. I might be wrong... but I don't think that's my problem. Instead, it is with the vapors coming from the gun. And primarily the lead styphanate from the primers. A month ago I knew squat about this. But since my diagnosis, I've done a TON of reading, and the general consensus is... the greatest exposure problem is indoor ranges and the lead styphanate exposure and/or exposed lead at base of bullet. All those sources would have to be wrong for it to be otherwise.

NOTE - You've provided some excellent material, and while I am disagreeing with you in 3 and 4 above... please don't take that personally. But your statements I addressed there are so fundamentally different from everything else I'm reading, I do have to challenge them.

5. My biggest question. Is the 3M filter I'm currently using the proper one. You mention need for a HEPA filter, and the 2091 is listed as a HEPA filter. But what I suspect is that it doesn't block VAPORS appropriately, as most of the ones that do don't look like a "pad" as the 2091 does, but more a cartridge.

So if anyone with knowledge there can ring in, that would be helpful. "Contact the company" isn't so helpful. C'mon, you know all you're gonna get is a phone answerer person, the people with the knowledge don't work the front lines and the front lines seldom know who to route calls to.

[Boxerglocker]

Ron go with the 3M 2091 P100 HEPA Respirator Filter for lead. I talked to our safety focal in the paint shop about it, she said that would be the best choice thought depending on the exposure time the other would suffice too.
Make sure as I stated before to use proper cleaning practices before and after otherwise your efforts will be in vain.

[ron59]

Originally Posted by Boxerglocker

Ron go with the 3M 2091 P100 HEPA Respirator Filter for lead. I talked to our safety focal in the paint shop about it, she said that would be the best choice thought depending on the exposure time the other would suffice too.
Make sure as I stated before to use proper cleaning practices before and after otherwise your efforts will be in vain.

The 3M 2091 P100 HEPA filter is the one I'm using.
So she says that's the proper one? Good to know. I got that from a blog where he seemed to be pretty well informed, sounds like he was right.

[Colorado4Wheel]

I read the sheet on that. It's nothing like the filter I use. It's good for a extended period of time and seems to be a really good dust filter. Lead dust is a HUGE problem at a indoor range.

[ron59]

Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel

I read the sheet on that. It's nothing like the filter I use. It's good for a extended period of time and seems to be a really good dust filter. Lead dust is a HUGE problem at a indoor range.

Were you thrown off previously by the fact that it was pink and looked like yours?

[Colorado4Wheel]

One of the filters I commonly used has a pink band around it.

[bigbluedodge]

Originally Posted by ron59

5. My biggest question. Is the 3M filter I'm currently using the proper one. You mention need for a HEPA filter, and the 2091 is listed as a HEPA filter. But what I suspect is that it doesn't block VAPORS appropriately, as most of the ones that do don't look like a "pad" as the 2091 does, but more a cartridge.

So if anyone with knowledge there can ring in, that would be helpful. "Contact the company" isn't so helpful. C'mon, you know all you're gonna get is a phone answerer person, the people with the knowledge don't work the front lines and the front lines seldom know who to route calls to.

If you are worried about the vapors (And you are) then you do have to get one for vapors, a HEPA filter will only reliably filter particulate in the air, vapor will go through it. Do not know which one though sorry, also you need to filter for your resperator, and a vapor one will be hard to find becasue most people only need a particulate filter. I know you dont want to but the best way might be to contact the manufacturer, besides they will know for sure, not what I or someone else believes is the right one, or ask at the range what they are required to wear.

[ChrisJn]

Ron,
From all I have read here a respirator will not protect you from all the elements. If you keep putting yourself in harms way you will be a walking time bomb in no time at all and you are far too young even at 53 for that to happen. Get over it and get to an outside range!

[WiskyT]

I'm for checking with the manufacturer. While I'm sure that the person who answers the phone, if it even is a person, won't know the answer, they must have someone on their staff who will know the answer.

[Colorado4Wheel]

I suggested that before. It's highly unlikely that they won't send you to a knowledgeable person. Just from a liability point of view. Other chance is they don't help you at all. That seems highly unlikely. I vaguely remember calling them in the past myself.

[ron59]

Originally Posted by ChrisJn

Ron,
From all I have read here a respirator will not protect you from all the elements. If you keep putting yourself in harms way you will be a walking time bomb in no time at all and you are far too young even at 53 for that to happen. Get over it and get to an outside range!

I've been going there once a week for 3+ years and it was 38, 34 after not shooting for 3 weeks.

If it was the same 34 when I go back in 4 months... that's still not an emergency. One guy posted in my earlier thread that he works around lead and they test out in the 30s all the time and they have to keep working. And that's OSHA. And in it each and every day.

But if I'm down to 20 in 4 months? I'm good to go.

I think your reaction is an extreme. Believe me, I take my health seriously. No... I have a plan and I think it's a viable one. If it doesn't go UP I'm not hurt (can't see that as I'm at least protected from lead dust). Now, if it is still in the mid-to-high 30s in four months then I would give very serious consideration to never going back. But if it's down in the 20s? We do it again for another 4 months to see if it drops even lower (takes awhile for it to come out of your system).

Like I said... I believe this is a viable plan that does not jeopardize my health. Even with that... I won't let it continue to be in the 30s. If the respirator doesn't improve that... I'm done.

Oh. Wait. One last piece of the puzzle. A guy on here emailed me last week, said he used a respirator like mine... Went from high 30s to 10 in under 6 months. I asked him about filters, he *said* I had the ones like him?

Think I will try to contact 3M though.

[ChrisJn]

Originally Posted by ron59

..........
I think your reaction is an extreme.......

Ron,
Only concerned for your long term good health.
The ultimate decision is yours alone. I just have bad memories from the old indoor police ranges in London. By the way my understanding is that they have now all been closed down despite the millions spent on them in earlier years.

[Colorado4Wheel]

36 for a period of time is no big deal.

[GioaJack]

We had an indoor pistol range on Homestead AFB when I was stationed there in the late 60's, early 70's. The ceiling was open to the sky with slanted baffles along the 25 yard length of the shooting area to retain stray rounds. (When it rained you got wet, that's how open it was.)

They, (I have no idea who 'they' was), actually closed down the range due to lead concerns. We just used our 100 yard outdoor rifle range after that.

Guess who got all the lead at the bottom of the back stop? We practiced with 148 grain WC's so there was a bunch of it.


Jack

[ron59]

Originally Posted by ChrisJn

Ron,
Only concerned for your long term good health.
The ultimate decision is yours alone. I just have bad memories from the old indoor police ranges in London. By the way my understanding is that they have now all been closed down despite the millions spent on them in earlier years.

I hear you. I've already made up my mind that I won't shoot there without protection. If the respirator doesn't make a big difference... *will* discontinue for sure.

I sincerely feel that the respirator will make a huge difference. The "stuff" is getting breathed in, just gotta block that.

[Jayman]

FWIW, some lead gets processed out of your body, some deposits in your bones and joints. When I was in the same boat I used the MG/MV + P100 filters from 3M. I got my lead down from the 30s to 19 in the span of 6 months, and 6 months after that it was down to 6-8, same plan. All of my lead exposure was from an indoor range as well. I reload approximately 15k rounds a year and shoot the same, and the reloading wasn't the culprit, based on what I saw.

[tnedator]

Is this a problem with all indoor ranges, or just those that aren't well filtered/ventilated?

[Jayman]

Originally Posted by tnedator

Is this a problem with all indoor ranges, or just those that aren't well filtered/ventilated?

The second thing you said. After the range I shoot at fixed all of the issues, I stopped wearing a respirator and my lead levels are still hovering around 6-8.