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06-09-2012, 14:02
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#26
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 182
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Your freedom got taken away in the hopes of finding someone ELSE!? Most LEO's that say that this is okay probably would have a royal fit if they got cuffed, no matter how many times the LEO said,"Check my wallet!! I'm an officer!!" as he was cuffed anyway. This was wrong. Too many times the cuffs and taser come out in the name of safety. "I'm cuffing you for my own safety, while i write the jay walking ticket." I understand that it was a bank robber. I understand that weapons were involved. But denying freedom just because you are in the area, not good, not legal- in my opinion.
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06-09-2012, 14:14
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#27
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Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaybe
Your freedom got taken away in the hopes of finding someone ELSE!? Most LEO's that say that this is okay probably would have a royal fit if they got cuffed, no matter how many times the LEO said,"Check my wallet!! I'm an officer!!" as he was cuffed anyway. This was wrong. Too many times the cuffs and taser come out in the name of safety. "I'm cuffing you for my own safety, while i write the jay walking ticket." I understand that it was a bank robber. I understand that weapons were involved. But denying freedom just because you are in the area, not good, not legal- in my opinion.
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THIS!!! 
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06-09-2012, 14:49
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#28
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No Infidels!
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Circling the wagons.
Posts: 15,294
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All of the discussion on this topic is occuring in another thread, replete with case law and much more logical discussion. It's linked at least twice in this one.
__________________
"Logic is rarely the engine that propels a police department forward."
-David Simon in "Homicide"
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06-09-2012, 15:14
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#29
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Fenced In
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: KY
Posts: 16,136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSorb
I am STUNNED...never thought I'd face such hateful opposition on GT while defending the Constitution of the United States...  |
Maybe because we actually have training in the LAW, and what it ACTUALLY means, as opposed to what you WANT it to mean.
__________________
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas Edison
Quote:
Originally Posted by series1811
The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
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06-09-2012, 15:46
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#30
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STOP RESISTING!
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the hood
Posts: 2,232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSorb
I am STUNNED...never thought I'd face such hateful opposition on GT while defending the Constitution of the United States... |
Not sure if serious?
Defending something on the Internet won't get ya too far, pal.
Maybe there's an occupy movement you can hop into??
Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheriff733
Did he have a warrant to use that taser?
From what I've learned in the Boston bombing threads, you must always have a warrant. For anything.
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06-09-2012, 15:49
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#31
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STOP RESISTING!
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the hood
Posts: 2,232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaybe
Your freedom got taken away in the hopes of finding someone ELSE!? Most LEO's that say that this is okay probably would have a royal fit if they got cuffed, no matter how many times the LEO said,"Check my wallet!! I'm an officer!!" as he was cuffed anyway. This was wrong. Too many times the cuffs and taser come out in the name of safety. "I'm cuffing you for my own safety, while i write the jay walking ticket." I understand that it was a bank robber. I understand that weapons were involved. But denying freedom just because you are in the area, not good, not legal- in my opinion.
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Opinions are like buttholes....
I'm glad we have case law and other jurisprudence to back up what we do. Even though the majority of you refuse to read any of it and not budge off your "this is my constitutional freesom" pedestal long enough to truly see that you're blabbing about.
Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheriff733
Did he have a warrant to use that taser?
From what I've learned in the Boston bombing threads, you must always have a warrant. For anything.
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06-09-2012, 17:01
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#32
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 38,838
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TheSorb, your posts illustrate a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the law, both legislated and case law, that governs actions by law enforcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSorb
That sounds DANGEROUSLY close to... the end justifies the means...and... Hitler made the trains run on time... HORRIBLY flawed logic and COMPLETELY illegal, Constitutionally speaking (see below), no matter WHAT the courts say to the contrary!!!
Fourth Amendment To The US Constitution:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSorb
What's your point Patchman? Have you never heard that phrase? It was a very common expression used by those who tried to justify Hitler's tactics. You might want to do a little research before you start spouting inanities and demonstrate just how ignorant YOU are!!!  |
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSorb
Soooo sick of the nazi BEHAVIOR & ATTITUDES... 
EXACTLY!!!
REALLY...it WASN'T Hitler...wow...all this time I thought it was Hitler illegally detaining & handcuffing everyone at that Colorado intersection...my bad!  |
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSorb
That's some unbelievable (& frightening) arrogance and ignorance you're demonstrating...I NEVER made any such comparison. And I have the utmost respect for American law enforcement personnel who acknowledge my rights AND uphold the Constitution of the United States - THE SUPREME LAW OF THIS LAND!!!
My comments were directed at someone who implied that the end (catching the alleged criminal) somehow justified the means (illegally detaining & handcuffing numerous persons for whom law enforcement had absolutely no probable cause to do so). Now if you are unable to make that mental connection, that's YOUR problem. Don't blame me and resort to immature name calling just because, evidently, you are unable to read and understand my comments. |
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSorb
I am STUNNED...never thought I'd face such hateful opposition on GT while defending the Constitution of the United States... |
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaybe
Your freedom got taken away in the hopes of finding someone ELSE!? Most LEO's that say that this is okay probably would have a royal fit if they got cuffed, no matter how many times the LEO said,"Check my wallet!! I'm an officer!!" as he was cuffed anyway. This was wrong. Too many times the cuffs and taser come out in the name of safety. "I'm cuffing you for my own safety, while i write the jay walking ticket." I understand that it was a bank robber. I understand that weapons were involved. But denying freedom just because you are in the area, not good, not legal- in my opinion.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSorb
THIS!!! |
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBigBR
All of the discussion on this topic is occuring in another thread, replete with case law and much more logical discussion. It's linked at least twice in this one.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP
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Please join the discussions already going in Political Issues, Cop Talk and especially the one in Civil Liberties Issues, and, based on your posts, Civil Liberties Issues is the most appropriate forum.
Thank you...
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.
Kind of like on the internet forums - People continually flip someone off who they know is obligated to not break the rules in response. Yeah, usually that type of stupidity eventually yields the rewards that are earned.
And then there are those trying so hard to be offended that they're imagining things that haven't even been said in a thread.
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06-09-2012, 17:34
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#33
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Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP
your posts illustrate a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the law, both legislated and case law, that governs actions by law enforcement...
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I believe I have a decent working knowledge & understanding of the law, both legislated and case law, that governs actions by law enforcement-though I'm certainly no expert/scholar. I just believe that much of it is wrong and anti-Constitutional. So please don't mistake a different perspective as ignorance. Thank you.
I'll stop posting on this thread, as requested.
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06-09-2012, 20:13
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#34
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 182
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Ohio Copper, it appears that you and so many other LEO's believe that no matter what, the officer is supreme, right and always in charge. You see the citizens are nothing more than stupid sheep to taze or cuff when ever it is convenient. Those of us on the "constitutional pedestal" see that document as our protection against wreckless powers and abuses. Without the checks, there is no balance. You will understand when your badge is gone and you no longer have the "professional courtesy" going in your favor, but not until. I understand the LE job. I have made my traffic stops, put the cuffs on bad guys. and so on. But you see officers doing anything if it justifies the means; Constitution be damned. When you are on the other side and some bully with a badge decides that today is your day, you will see. The rule of law and the restraints on those in power need to constantly guarded. We don't need the sheepdogs turning wolf.
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06-09-2012, 20:17
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#35
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,322
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Disturbing is the best way to describe the situation. Blocking off the road, maybe. Handcuffing, far and beyond what I would expect from LE in the US.
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06-09-2012, 20:23
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#36
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STOP RESISTING!
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the hood
Posts: 2,232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaybe
Ohio Copper, it appears that you and so many other LEO's believe that no matter what, the officer is supreme, right and always in charge. You see the citizens are nothing more than stupid sheep to taze or cuff when ever it is convenient. Those of us on the "constitutional pedestal" see that document as our protection against wreckless powers and abuses. Without the checks, there is no balance. You will understand when your badge is gone and you no longer have the "professional courtesy" going in your favor, but not until. I understand the LE job. I have made my traffic stops, put the cuffs on bad guys. and so on. But you see officers doing anything if it justifies the means; Constitution be damned. When you are on the other side and some bully with a badge decides that today is your day, you will see. The rule of law and the restraints on those in power need to constantly guarded. We don't need the sheepdogs turning wolf.
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Cool.
Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheriff733
Did he have a warrant to use that taser?
From what I've learned in the Boston bombing threads, you must always have a warrant. For anything.
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06-09-2012, 20:26
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#37
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Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 19,711
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I see we have a new crop in...
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
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06-09-2012, 21:03
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#38
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 38,838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade
I see we have a new crop in...
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Seems so...
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.
Kind of like on the internet forums - People continually flip someone off who they know is obligated to not break the rules in response. Yeah, usually that type of stupidity eventually yields the rewards that are earned.
And then there are those trying so hard to be offended that they're imagining things that haven't even been said in a thread.
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06-09-2012, 21:41
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#39
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STOP RESISTING!
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the hood
Posts: 2,232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade
I see we have a new crop in...
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Different usernames, same diahrrea of the mouth.
Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheriff733
Did he have a warrant to use that taser?
From what I've learned in the Boston bombing threads, you must always have a warrant. For anything.
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06-09-2012, 22:17
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#40
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Gold Membership
Crazy CO
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kansas, near the bison.
Posts: 22,780
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 Leaving a few bowls full. Bring your own beer. 
People in large part don't look at case law most of the time, (personal opinion), because the perspective is that it is a lot to look at. Indeed it is.
In order to understand how things work in this country, and in state governments you have to go beyond looking at written law to case law. Case law generally is the application of the written law as interpreted by the judiciary, which I think most law enforcement officers understand because it is their livelihood. So, I am guessing it is up to those of us involved in law enforcement to explain that in the kindlier environment of a forum, and for those of us ambitious enough to do so, to go ahead and post a link or two to some applicable case law, or to where they can find applicable case law so that they can thoroughly understand what it is they are upset against; have concerns about.
Other than that, if people seek a change in the laws concerned with they need to address this to their congress, individually or as a group in order to facilitate such changes; and to exercise the power of the vote to usher in to office those sympathetic to their concerns.
__________________
Arming with truth defeats ignorance. Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me." John 14:6
"Opinions expressed in this article are those of the author
and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the Federal
Bureau of Prisons or the Department of Justice."
In God we trust, all others we monitor.
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06-09-2012, 23:09
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#41
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CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 40,558
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06-10-2012, 06:10
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#42
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Florist
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merryweather
Posts: 9,325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSorb
I am STUNNED...never thought I'd face such hateful opposition on GT while defending the Constitution of the United States... |
Sorry I'm late getting back here.
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Except (here's the good news) I think you're too ignorant to really be a scoundrel.
You posted at least twice that Hitler made the trains run on time. So you're ignorant or stupid or sloppy with facts or just go around making up "facts" (ie: you're a lier). Maybe a combination of all of the above.
So flowing out of your ignorance, stupidity, or lies, you want to be taken seriously?
__________________
There are at least two sides to every story. I just heard yours and, indeed, you appear to be the victim. But I can't stop wondering what the other side has to say. :dunno:
In a gun fight, even doing everything right can still get you killed.
Last edited by Patchman; 06-10-2012 at 06:45..
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06-10-2012, 07:49
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#43
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UBER VOL !!!
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Hallowed ground - Neyland Stadium!
Posts: 1,553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSorb
I am STUNNED...never thought I'd face such hateful opposition on GT while defending the Constitution of the United States... |
The "hateful opposition" comes from the FACT that YOU JUST CALLED COPS NAZIS!
I'm not a cop, never have been, loves me some Constitution as much as anyone.
What you said is OFFENSIVE on a very deep level. What part of that do you not understand??? You made a direct reference to Hitler (a killer of 6 MILLION people) in the same sentence that you questioned the actions of police that, at the time KNEW the following:
2 Men, both armed, whom had, only moments before, threatened the violent death of several people while they were in the act of committing about half a dozen Federal felonies that, if caught, would send them to a maximum security prison for 10-30 years. These same said men were KNOWN FOR A ROCK SOLID CERTAINTY(via modern technology) to be inside a small, well defined area. It was also believed that the robbers MAY have had a hostage.
So smart guy, since you LOVE the Constitution and also know everything, what would you have done knowing the totality of the circumstances?
__________________
Counting on someone else's self restraint for your safety is not a strategy. - OLY-M4gery
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06-10-2012, 08:00
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#44
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Florist
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merryweather
Posts: 9,325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheExplorer
Disturbing is the best way to describe the situation. Blocking off the road, maybe. Handcuffing, far and beyond what I would expect from LE in the US.
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I'm a big believer that with dynamic situations, need-it-right-now tactical decisions are best made by the boots-on-the-ground.
BTW, you do know the U.S. has a very relaxed policy on emigration, right? 
__________________
There are at least two sides to every story. I just heard yours and, indeed, you appear to be the victim. But I can't stop wondering what the other side has to say. :dunno:
In a gun fight, even doing everything right can still get you killed.
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06-10-2012, 08:41
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#45
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Massive Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman
I'm a big believer that with dynamic situations, need-it-right-now tactical decisions are best made by the jackboots-on-the-ground.
BTW, you do know the U.S. has a very relaxed policy on emigration, right? |
  fixed it for you. Although I'm not sure if "fixed" is spelled with an i or a u...
Randy
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06-10-2012, 11:50
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#46
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Florist
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merryweather
Posts: 9,325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveksux
fixed it for you. Although I'm not sure if "fixed" is spelled with an i or a u...
Randy |
It really doesn't matter how it's correctly spelled. If we wanted you to spell it, a jackbooted-thug-in-training (ie: FTO) will be over to beat it out of you.
And should he not have his hat on at any point during the beating, he'll just have to start all over again!
__________________
There are at least two sides to every story. I just heard yours and, indeed, you appear to be the victim. But I can't stop wondering what the other side has to say. :dunno:
In a gun fight, even doing everything right can still get you killed.
Last edited by Patchman; 06-10-2012 at 11:56..
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06-10-2012, 15:20
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#47
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Tucson
Posts: 2,037
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I have my opinion and it includes incompetence in it.
__________________
G17 G27 G29 G35 G38 NRA GSSF
NEED A GOOD GUN? See your local ATF agent.
He will get you one fast and furiously.
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06-10-2012, 18:50
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#48
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CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 40,558
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Admitting your opinion is incompetent is refreshingly honest, but not likely to sway many professionals to your side.
Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2
__________________
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".
"A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read."
Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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06-10-2012, 19:12
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#49
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Florist
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merryweather
Posts: 9,325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO
Admitting your opinion is incompetent is refreshingly honest, but not likely to sway many professionals to your side.
Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2
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Sway? Sway from a gibbet?
__________________
There are at least two sides to every story. I just heard yours and, indeed, you appear to be the victim. But I can't stop wondering what the other side has to say. :dunno:
In a gun fight, even doing everything right can still get you killed.
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06-10-2012, 20:49
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#50
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,059
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaybe
Ohio Copper, it appears that you and so many other LEO's believe that no matter what, the officer is supreme, right and always in charge. You see the citizens are nothing more than stupid sheep to taze or cuff when ever it is convenient. Those of us on the "constitutional pedestal" see that document as our protection against wreckless powers and abuses. Without the checks, there is no balance. You will understand when your badge is gone and you no longer have the "professional courtesy" going in your favor, but not until. I understand the LE job. I have made my traffic stops, put the cuffs on bad guys. and so on. But you see officers doing anything if it justifies the means; Constitution be damned. When you are on the other side and some bully with a badge decides that today is your day, you will see. The rule of law and the restraints on those in power need to constantly guarded. We don't need the sheepdogs turning wolf.
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Wiser words have not been spoken on GT. Amen.
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