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Old 07-05-2012, 18:41   #126
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Originally Posted by Stevekozak View Post
If they knew him, maybe they would not be so much alarmed as curious. Ever been in a small town church?
Heroes can be found in the most surprising places, a small town church is not a place I would be surprised to find a hero.
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Old 07-05-2012, 18:42   #127
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With apologies to Russ, I would not have been upset if someone had dropped him right as he walked in the door. There are too many nutcases walking around trying to prove something to risk a bunch of innocent church goers. We can't carry in a church here in Georgia and if I couldn't quickly get my wife and kids out the back door, I would have jumped on him...
You want someone to just "drop you" if they decide that they don't like what you are wearing, what you are carrying, or if you make them uneasy? You should let everyone in your town know. I bet there is someone there that will be glad to have that little nugget of news.
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Old 07-05-2012, 19:06   #128
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Originally Posted by Stevekozak View Post
You want someone to just "drop you" if they decide that they don't like what you are wearing, what you are carrying, or if you make them uneasy? You should let everyone in your town know. I bet there is someone there that will be glad to have that little nugget of news.
There is a context to be considered here:

http://gunssavelives.net/self-defens...mass-shooting/

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...21/detail.html

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Knoxville_Un...hurch_shooting

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...-shooting?lite

http://www.9news.com/news/article/26...hurch-shooting

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...nybridge-place





Like I said earlier, this could have been prevented by Concealed carry. There is a time and a place for everything. Things that are odd are reasonable to pay attention too. What would you think if a guy walked into a convenience store with an unholstered handgun?

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
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Old 07-05-2012, 19:26   #129
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
There is a context to be considered here:

http://gunssavelives.net/self-defens...mass-shooting/

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...21/detail.html

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Knoxville_Un...hurch_shooting

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...-shooting?lite

http://www.9news.com/news/article/26...hurch-shooting

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...nybridge-place





Like I said earlier, this could have been prevented by Concealed carry. There is a time and a place for everything. Things that are odd are reasonable to pay attention too. What would you think if a guy walked into a convenience store with an unholstered handgun?

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
I understand the context to which you are referring, but find it quite a dangerous attitude to have to want to shoot someone dead just because they are garbed out in a particular way or are carrying a particular type of gun. Proceed with caution, perhaps, gun them down, no. At this point, I would be more afraid to walk into a room containing Zut than into one containing the guy from the church. Given only what I have read about or from each of them. To my knowledge, the man from the church had not advocated gunning anyone down based on first impressions.
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Old 07-05-2012, 19:35   #130
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Originally Posted by Stevekozak View Post
I understand the context to which you are referring, but find it quite a dangerous attitude to have to want to shoot someone dead just because they are garbed out in a particular way or are carrying a particular type of gun. Proceed with caution, perhaps, gun them down, no. At this point, I would be more afraid to walk into a room containing Zut than into one containing the guy from the church. Given only what I have read about or from each of them. To my knowledge, the man from the church had not advocated gunning anyone down based on first impressions.

Whoa there hoss...... Who said anything about wanting to shoot someone? Guy walks into a church decked out for a zombie invasion or mass shooting...... Yeah, I'd be doing a threat assessment. The bag is the big deal for me. Some of us have been places where those things can go bad real quick.

I do not know what he had planned, I have no way to know that. But it appears he wanted attention. He has it now. Lucky him huh? If he was not up to no good, why didn't he mention it to the congregation the previous week. Communication can go a long way to avoiding trouble.

I'm still suspicious.
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Old 07-05-2012, 19:43   #131
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I am sure he is referencing post 124 assuming from the poster drop him equals shoot him as soon as he walks in the door.

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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Whoa there hoss...... Who said anything about wanting to shoot someone? Guy walks into a church decked out for a zombie invasion or mass shooting...... Yeah, I'd be doing a threat assessment. The bag is the big deal for me. Some of us have been places where those things can go bad real quick.

I do not know what he had planned, I have no way to know that. But it appears he wanted attention. He has it now. Lucky him huh? If he was not up to no good, why didn't he mention it to the congregation the previous week. Communication can go a long way to avoiding trouble.

I'm still suspicious.
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Old 07-05-2012, 20:12   #132
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I am sure he is referencing post 124 assuming from the poster drop him equals shoot him as soon as he walks in the door.
Shooting and killing someone is a choice based on circumstances. No one said that they wanted too. You'd have to be very naive to want to shoot someone. It's not pretty, and not nearly as glamorous as TV makes it seem.
Usually, it's very expensive.

But just because you don't want to, in today's world, you have to consider whether you will have too when you run into someone in that scenario. Nothing is certain, but a threat assessment is in order. If a crook is packing, getting ready to heist a corner store, and someone walks in open carrying, he's going to do something similar, probably with less objective evidence, he will decide what to do based on fear..... Could be a good thing, could be bad.

The guy got the attention he wanted, just not sure it ended the way he wanted.
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Old 07-05-2012, 20:50   #133
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Zut said he would drop the mo fo. This may be extreme, but I understand where he is coming from.

As a police officer, I would give the subject one command, maybe even two commands, and depending on his reaction I would engage (or not).
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:57   #134
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Whoa there hoss...... Who said anything about wanting to shoot someone? Guy walks into a church decked out for a zombie invasion or mass shooting...... Yeah, I'd be doing a threat assessment. The bag is the big deal for me. Some of us have been places where those things can go bad real quick.

I do not know what he had planned, I have no way to know that. But it appears he wanted attention. He has it now. Lucky him huh? If he was not up to no good, why didn't he mention it to the congregation the previous week. Communication can go a long way to avoiding trouble.

I'm still suspicious.
Well, I thought Zut did. If I misunderstood Zut's meaning when he said "I would not have been upset if someone had dropped him right as he walked in the door", then I apologise. It sure seemed to me that he was refering to putting one in his melon. Threat assessment needs to be much more than glancing at what a person is wearing or carrying, before deciding to shoot someone. I think we are probably looking at this much the same, but perhaps have different ideas about what Rut meant in his post. I agree 100% that communication can go a long way in avoiding trouble. I should hope that some would be forthcoming before deciding to "drop someone" regardless of the meaning of the phrase.
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Old 07-06-2012, 05:00   #135
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Well, all we have is a black box. We know a very small amount about what went in, almost nothing about what occurred inside, and a fair amount about what came out. Obviously, the right thing happened, no one was hurt.

I can see someone going up and talking to him. Personally, I'd have liked to have a buddy nonchalantly take up an overwatch position over him, and a couple more watch the other entrances and exits before I went over. It would all depend on his demeanor after that. Psycho-motor agitation (fidgeting), eye contact, pitch of voice, startle reflex, pale moist skin, dilated pupils.... if that didn't look good, and depending on where his hands were, he'd be one "allahu akbar" away from three rounds to the head, timed halfway through a question I was asking him. I am not a super ninja, or a spy, or anything special, but I do know how to look at someone and pretty quickly assess whether they are about to do something bad. Other tips, any chance his wife was dressed oddly too? Dressing better than normal would have been another red flag. Was she sweating bullets? Car bombers in Iraq would prepare themselves to meet Mohammed, which usually meant they were very well dressed in bright white, perfumed etc.

Tough call. Glad it all turned out. Still, way too little is known about this to make any calls yet. Only thing for sure, is that the members of the church, and the police seem to have done the right thing.
I agree. There isn’t enough information for us. It’s quite likely some of those present had more information, including but not limited to conversations or observations from previous encounters. It could have been just observations from that day. Assuming the article is correct; I do believe there was enough to raise the red flag that resulted in the 911 call. The remainder of the inventory seems highly suspicious as well.

Now, if he had discussed with others before that day that he was coming in full military gear with his rifle in celebration of Independence Day and to pay respect for all fallen military personnel who gave their life to preserve that Independence for all others, someone would have stood up and spoken on his behalf (which we don’t know if it happened or not). Granted, after finding the illegally carried concealed handgun and the illegally possessed morphine pills there wouldn’t have been much anyone present could have done to prevent his arrest.


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Old 07-06-2012, 05:05   #136
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Originally Posted by Stevekozak View Post
I understand the context to which you are referring, but find it quite a dangerous attitude to have to want to shoot someone dead just because they are garbed out in a particular way or are carrying a particular type of gun.
Look at it this way - at best, shooting him when he walks in would stop a nutcase from killing a bunch of people...at worst, there'd be one less ninja posting about OC in GNG.
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Old 07-06-2012, 05:09   #137
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The person presenting their self as a threat real or perceived needs to consider whether it's worth the risk of getting shot as they walk in the door too. He knew he would not be received with yawns. No one is saying shoot someone because they appear different. But a threat needs to be evaluated very quickly. That could mean a pre-emtive shot at first appearance right or wrong. People reacting to protect their families can and should move to stop a threat "before" it does harm to themselves or their families. So don't walk into church appearing as a threat and you won't have to worry.
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Old 07-06-2012, 05:21   #138
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With apologies to Russ, I would not have been upset if someone had dropped him right as he walked in the door. There are too many nutcases walking around trying to prove something to risk a bunch of innocent church goers. We can't carry in a church here in Georgia and if I couldn't quickly get my wife and kids out the back door, I would have jumped on him...
Obviously that wasn’t necessary. We can carry at church in FL and it is very likely there would have been more than a handful ready for possible conflict. Me? I would have gotten an unexpected stomach ache (or something) and my entire family would have had to take me home right then and there. The big question is, would I have been able to pull both our boys out of there with the possibility of friends being at risk and perhaps needing back-up until the police arrived? Hopefully not a question I ever need to find the answer for.

Thankfully the whole family is aware and agrees that the most successful gun fight is the one you’re not there for; however, when other family members or close friends are at risk the rules of the game change.

Additionally, he had been honorably discharged from the military. My entire family has a very high level of respect and admiration for those that have served. Why would you shoot such a person (or anyone else for that matter) unless you had absolutely no other choice left?
http://privateofficernews.wordpress....lee-hernandez/

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Old 07-06-2012, 05:26   #139
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
There is a context to be considered here:

http://gunssavelives.net/self-defens...mass-shooting/

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...21/detail.html

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Knoxville_Un...hurch_shooting

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...-shooting?lite

http://www.9news.com/news/article/26...hurch-shooting

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...nybridge-place





Like I said earlier, this could have been prevented by Concealed carry. There is a time and a place for everything. Things that are odd are reasonable to pay attention too. What would you think if a guy walked into a convenience store with an unholstered handgun?

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
It could have, but it appears he wasn’t licensed for concealed carry as that was one of the charges. Of course, if no one noticed, no one would have been the wiser.

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Old 07-06-2012, 05:42   #140
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The person presenting their self as a threat real or perceived needs to consider whether it's worth the risk of getting shot as they walk in the door too. He knew he would not be received with yawns. No one is saying shoot someone because they appear different. But a threat needs to be evaluated very quickly. That could mean a pre-emtive shot at first appearance right or wrong. People reacting to protect their families can and should move to stop a threat "before" it does harm to themselves or their families. So don't walk into church appearing as a threat and you won't have to worry.
I don’t necessarily agree. People reacting to protect their families can and should move their rears out of there if at all possible, engaging the threat (for me) is the last alternative when a safe escape is not available.

You just reminded me of a comment made by a friend in jest one day “maybe you all should separate and tactically sit in different sections”. Our entire family getting up and vacating a whole pew may not go unnoticed by someone with intent to do something stupid during the service. Maybe that deserves a bit more thought.

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Old 07-06-2012, 05:58   #141
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who goes to church in camo??????...look's like a nut job to me
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:05   #142
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who goes to church in camo??????...look's like a nut job to me
I would not find it peculiar for military personnel (past and present) to go to church in their military uniform for certain occasions such as Independence Day and Memorial Day (or if they just want to any other day). It’s the accumulation of the other factors that raise concern.

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Old 07-06-2012, 09:53   #143
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Does anyone really expect someone alarmed by a heavily armed man to walk up to him and strike up a conversation?

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On GT sure.

I mean there are only two options for a GTer. They can go all mall ninja on him or they would soil their britches. Which one do you believe they THINK they would do in that situation and which one do you think they would actually do?

I might not agree with policing methods, but that doesn't mean if an officer asks me for ID I am going all GT on him, tell him to eff off, he has no grounds, etc. I know the end of that story. HE will get positive identification of me. The govt has my finger prints (I know this 100% because I gave them to them in order to pass background check to be able to put my hand on the machine and be cleared through customs). If I go all GT it's just how much pain (maybe not physical pain) before he IDs me. Once the LEO asks me for identification the beginning and end of the story have been written. Only what comes in the middle has not been.

I fail to see how people who open carry to get LEO on their case to teach LEO a lesson are doing anything other than subjecting themselves to a lot of BS with nothing in return.


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Old 07-06-2012, 09:57   #144
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To the LEOs...on average how many hours.minutes.seconds does it take you when you make contact with someone to get a very good gut feeling if something isn't right about a person?

To others, how long does it generally take you to talk to a person and get a good feeling about a person.


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Old 07-06-2012, 10:04   #145
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Do any of you people who support this wack job realize that there were two young girls murdered in a church parking lot and the gun was coming inside the worship service for a mass shooting? Do you know what limited the killing to 2 teenage girls? An off duty officer who was a church member at the service who shot him in head.

Church security is taken seriously enough now that bigger churches will often have off duty officers who are members be present with weapons because if wackos. In addition churches with large worships sometimes have "security teams" that are present during the services. These are as simple as someone waking around the parking lot greeting people looking for odd stuff to alert LEO to potential threats.

The world isn't Mayberry




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Old 07-06-2012, 10:49   #146
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To the LEOs...on average how many hours.minutes.seconds does it take you when you make contact with someone to get a very good gut feeling if something isn't right about a person?

To others, how long does it generally take you to talk to a person and get a good feeling about a person.


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Heck, I make contact with them *because* I get a feeling that something ain't right.
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Old 07-06-2012, 10:54   #147
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I can see someone going up and talking to him. Personally, I'd have liked to have a buddy nonchalantly take up an overwatch position over him, and a couple more watch the other entrances and exits before I went over. It would all depend on his demeanor after that. Psycho-motor agitation (fidgeting), eye contact, pitch of voice, startle reflex, pale moist skin, dilated pupils.... if that didn't look good, and depending on where his hands were, he'd be one "allahu akbar" away from three rounds to the head, timed halfway through a question I was asking him. I am not a super ninja, or a spy, or anything special, but I do know how to look at someone and pretty quickly assess whether they are about to do something bad. Other tips, any chance his wife was dressed oddly too? Dressing better than normal would have been another red flag. Was she sweating bullets? Car bombers in Iraq would prepare themselves to meet Mohammed, which usually meant they were very well dressed in bright white, perfumed etc.
Doc's post is related to what you are asking, Dana...
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To the LEOs...on average how many hours.minutes.seconds does it take you when you make contact with someone to get a very good gut feeling if something isn't right about a person?

To others, how long does it generally take you to talk to a person and get a good feeling about a person.
There are involuntary signals to read...
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:00   #148
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To the LEOs...on average how many hours.minutes.seconds does it take you when you make contact with someone to get a very good gut feeling if something isn't right about a person?

To others, how long does it generally take you to talk to a person and get a good feeling about a person.


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Not long for sensing something may not be right. A VERY long time to get a “good” feeling about a person, after the initial meeting there is a long period of observation and assessment of acquaintances, most never go beyond being a casual acquaintance.

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Old 07-06-2012, 11:03   #149
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Heck, I make contact with them *because* I get a feeling that something ain't right.
This.

Also, just by the look in his eyes from the mugshot I would have made contact. Hopefully with someone watching my back.
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:08   #150
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Does anyone really expect someone alarmed by a heavily armed man to walk up to him and strike up a conversation?
Yep. In my church we would. Not much of a Shepherd or Elder if you are not willing to protect the flock.

I don't fault the guy or the police. This was an EPIC church failure. NO ONE should be able to walk into a church and find a seat if they are suspicious looking or carrying something that is no allowed. Sorry but this guy got nailed by the police for a failure on the church's part. If a church is doing it's job this guy should either have been stopped in the parking lot and asked to leave his gear in the car or if he was a member and allowed to OC in the church, the leaders should have come to his defense whenever the police arrived.
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