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Old 07-18-2012, 09:00   #51
NMG26
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Here is a good quote from the artical.

"As Carl Sagan so memorably put it - we are the universe experiencing itself".

The awesomeness of humanity can not be seen, believing that mankind is evil, and the only way this world is going to work out, is by God stepping in and fixing things.
God is not going to step in. It is important to argue against religious thought for this reason, to me.

I also get something spiritual out of testing my own belief against the beliefs of others. I grow.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:52   #52
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
What else are we to take from your statements?. You have gone as far as saying that it is hubris to think we can know this answer. If it is hubris to think that then certainly it is hubris to search for it as well since maybe we'll find it and you've already stated that claiming to know it is hubris.

Your philisophy on this point is an intellectual dead end. It leads to know further answers and I want answers. So, I choose to discard it and keep searching.
How is it hubris to search for and learn knowledge? I'm certain that you've jumped to the wrong conclusion. It would be hubris to claim to have an answer without sufficient evidence. I've never been against learning more, and must point out that you've misrepresented my position badly.

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You keep changing around what other people say and arguing against that and you still have the nerve to accuse others of strawman arguments?

I wasn't referring to it inhibiting science in general, I was referring it to inhibiting the quest to answer this specific question. Maybe the question of whether god does or does exist is actually knowable. There might be a definite path to a definite answer.
And if you care to go back and search, I've said I believe it is possible to know, but that we currently don't know. Not sure how you came to that conclusion about my position either, but we are seeing a trend.

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Admitting you don't know now doesn't progress you down that path to an answer. All it does is leave you stumped. If an answer is to be found then it will come from someone(s) that has figured it out and set out on a specific course to prove it. That is where discoveries come from.
Admitting you don't know can just as easily lead to the search for an answer. On this question, what would be your first step?

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Sometimes happy accidents do occur and someone finds something they are not looking for, but I am not aware of any examples of major discoveries that were found by first admitting that it is unknown (or can't be known). The scientific method starts with someone thinking they know the answer (a hypothesis) and then setting out on a course to either prove or disprove it.
And how does one come up with a hypothysis? Do they already know the results of experimentation? Nope, on occasion, one is not certain of the outcome, so therefore, actually goes through the process to see what they find.

Are you sure you're familiar with this process? Your steps are not in order, it begins with a question, not a hypothysis.

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The steps of the scientific method are to:
Ask a Question
Do Background Research
Construct a Hypothesis
Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
Communicate Your Results
Do you think that may be a factor in your previous poor conclusive skills?
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:36   #53
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And how does one come up with a hypothysis?

Are you sure you're familiar with this process?
At least I know how to spell hypothesis.



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Do you think that may be a factor in your previous poor conclusive skills?
Keep playing this way and I'll play this way back.
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:03   #54
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
At least I know how to spell hypothesis.





Keep playing this way and I'll play this way back.
Tell you what, to be fair I'll take full responsibility for the spelling error, you take full responsibility that your entire line of reasoning was illegitimately based on you misunderstanding the basic principles of how scientific knowledge is acheived.

We'll call it even.
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:46   #55
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Tell you what, to be fair I'll take full responsibility for the spelling error, you take full responsibility that your entire line of reasoning was illegitimately based on you misunderstanding the basic principles of how scientific knowledge is acheived.

We'll call it even.
Tell you what, I'll concede that my entire line of reasoning was illegitimate if you concede that religion is a scourge on the human race that must be eliminated if we are ever to be truly free.

And then we'll call it... totally lopsided in my favor.

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Old 07-18-2012, 11:54   #56
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Religious Issues
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:56   #57
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Tell you what, I'll concede that my entire line of reasoning was illegitimate if you concede that religion is a scourge on the human race that must be eliminated if we are ever to be truly free.

And then we'll call it... totally lopsided in my favor.

You are correct about one thing, that would be lopsided.

Sorta embarrassing when you make those kinds of mistakes, but I thought you would be reasonable about it. Sorry, my mistake. You are clearly motivated by your agenda.
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:57   #58
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Religious Issues
Quotes by fictitious characters don't usually play well here.
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Old 07-18-2012, 13:11   #59
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You are correct about one thing, that would be lopsided.

Sorta embarrassing when you make those kinds of mistakes, but I thought you would be reasonable about it. Sorry, my mistake. You are clearly motivated by your agenda.
You seriously think you've stumbled onto a meaningful point, don't you? Every atheist in this thread has already accomplished the first two steps long ago. We are here testing our hypothesis. So far, I've never seen a believer bring any sort of credible argument. Therefore, it remains intact.

CD, you are either having to much fun pulling people's strings or you are to blinded by your "agnosticism" to be able to carry on a rational conversation.
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JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."

Last edited by Geko45; 07-18-2012 at 15:41..
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Old 07-18-2012, 13:17   #60
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CD, you are either having to much fun pulling people's strings are you are to blinded by your "agnosticism" to be able to carry on a rational conversation.
I have been trying to figure that out too. Is my troll radar just failing me and I am just falling victim to one, or does he really believe everything he is typing.
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Old 07-18-2012, 13:26   #61
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You seriously think you've stumbled onto a meaningful point, don't you? Every atheist in this thread has already accomplished the first two steps long ago. We are here testing our hypothesis. So far, I've never seen a believer bring any sort of credible argument. Therefore, it remains intact.

CD, you are either having to much fun pulling people's strings are you are to blinded by your "agnosticism" to be able to carry on a rational conversation.
You based your theory that agnosticism leads to an intelectual dead end on your belief that "The scientific method starts with someone thinking they know the answer (a hypothesis)".

Considering that is demontrably incorrect, it seems that you are not reaching your conclusions using correct processes or information. Yep, that's pretty significant. If your methods aren't solid, the conclusions are suspect.

It begins with a question, one that the scientist doesn't necessarily know the answer. So, it would seem that agnosticism isn't an intellectual dead end, but we could discuss whether a dogmatic approach with a clearly stated biased agenda does. What do you think?

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 07-18-2012 at 13:28..
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Old 07-18-2012, 13:50   #62
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
The analogies are entertaining, but very unnecessary.
They are necessary in order to try to get you to understand. They are also a waste of time, as you continually demonstrate.

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Obviously, there is nothing quite so profound as the beginning of the answer to the question,"why are we here".
Why is that profound? Because you declare it to be? The principles are the same, regardless of any level of profoundness you prescribe to the situation.

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I think if you'll go back, you'll see that you stated your case, and attributed it to me. And yes, quite plainly that was a straw man you built.
If you'll go back, you'll notice that my scenario asked a lot of questions. Questions are not statements. I was asking how you would respond to the scenario, not stating how you would.

Just stay on that path to irrelevancy, Captain Strawman. You're almost there!
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Old 07-18-2012, 14:03   #63
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Most people consider the other religious beliefs as fairy tales.
And everybody, as far as I can tell, considers most religions to be fairytales - even the strongest pro-religion debaters on this forum. We only differ very slightly, in that most of you accept 1 or 2 religions, out of hundreds, while the atheists accept 0.
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Old 07-18-2012, 14:04   #64
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What do you think?
I think it is irrelevant. The first two steps are implied, and forming a hypothesis is still in integral part of the method (where serious research begins). You're clinging to this minor point is more of an "Ah ha! Gotcha!" than any sort of meaningful revelation. You are trying to win an argument. You are not trying to make your point of view understood.

At any rate, point CD if it makes you happy. Doesn't really change the debate at all, but congratulations none the less.
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CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."

Last edited by Geko45; 07-18-2012 at 15:43..
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Old 07-18-2012, 15:03   #65
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Quotes by fictitious characters don't usually play well here.
Rejecting a statement merely because it was written for a fictitious character is invalid. A statement is true or false whether or not it was written for a fictitious character.

“How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.” -- Winston Smith.
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Old 07-18-2012, 15:23   #66
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Quotes by fictitious characters don't usually play well here.
You probably don't appreciate the wisdom of Shakespeare or Voltaire either.
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Old 07-18-2012, 15:45   #67
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'IT STILL MOVES!"

Galileo, after being convicted of heresy and sentenced to life home imprisonment for violation of Roman Catholic Dogma of the time.

The violation being an assertion that the Moons of Jupiter revolved around Jupiter and not around the Earth.

The fact that anyone, including his Priest-Judges, could look through a telescope and see the truth was not an adequate defense.
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Old 07-18-2012, 15:45   #68
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You based your theory that agnosticism leads to an intelectual dead end on your belief that "The scientific method starts with someone thinking they know the answer (a hypothesis)".

Considering that is demontrably incorrect, it seems that you are not reaching your conclusions using correct processes or information. Yep, that's pretty significant. If your methods aren't solid, the conclusions are suspect.

It begins with a question, one that the scientist doesn't necessarily know the answer. So, it would seem that agnosticism isn't an intellectual dead end, but we could discuss whether a dogmatic approach with a clearly stated biased agenda does. What do you think?

God hugger!


...
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Old 07-18-2012, 18:14   #69
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You probably don't appreciate the wisdom of Shakespeare or Voltaire either.
Wisdom? Or adeptness at drama?

It's different.
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Old 07-18-2012, 18:17   #70
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Wisdom? Or adeptness at drama?

It's different.
Once again, I have to agree with you.
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Old 07-18-2012, 18:22   #71
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Originally Posted by Sarge1400 View Post
They are necessary in order to try to get you to understand. They are also a waste of time, as you continually demonstrate.



Why is that profound? Because you declare it to be? The principles are the same, regardless of any level of profoundness you prescribe to the situation.



If you'll go back, you'll notice that my scenario asked a lot of questions. Questions are not statements. I was asking how you would respond to the scenario, not stating how you would.

Just stay on that path to irrelevancy, Captain Strawman. You're almost there!
Sarge (a term of endearment, and the name of my first dog, a valued and sorely missed friend, and yes, I used to be an NCO too),

We are all irrelevant to most, liked by a fair amount, admired by few, and loved by a very select minority of the earth's inhabitants.

It's the human condition. I'm cool with that.

Yes, I do consider whether we were designed, or happened by random events to be a little bit profound. Sue me.

If you have questions about what I think, you can ask directly, without all the smoke and mirrors, with my permission.

Religious Issues
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Old 07-18-2012, 18:22   #72
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God hugger!


...
pedophile!

Just as accurate (or at least I hope not )
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Old 07-18-2012, 18:23   #73
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Once again, I have to agree with you.
Dude, don't admit that here... It's bad for your rep. Religious Issues
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Old 07-18-2012, 18:26   #74
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Originally Posted by Norske View Post
'IT STILL MOVES!"

Galileo, after being convicted of heresy and sentenced to life home imprisonment for violation of Roman Catholic Dogma of the time.

The violation being an assertion that the Moons of Jupiter revolved around Jupiter and not around the Earth.

The fact that anyone, including his Priest-Judges, could look through a telescope and see the truth was not an adequate defense.
Quote:
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centered system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favorite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centered system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts.
It was an odd time.
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Old 07-18-2012, 18:31   #75
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Rejecting a statement merely because it was written for a fictitious character is invalid. A statement is true or false whether or not it was written for a fictitious character.

“How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.” -- Winston Smith.
Did I say it was false? I'd agree with it mostly, but to put that into context, would resurrect an old debate that most consider at least as offensive as heresy, if not, more likely, as heresy.



http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...6#post19210716

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