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Old 07-22-2012, 20:52   #1
alank2
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If you use a stock barrel, do you reload your brass?

Hi Everyone,


If you use a stock barrel, do you reload your brass?

I tried a few what I thought were 30K or lower pressure loads, and the result was 18 out of 20 cases so balooned that resizing them gives a sharp crease where the sizing die stops. I also had a pretty hefty gouge in the case rim.

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-22-2012, 21:04   #2
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I absolutely reload brass fired from the stock G20 barrel and have never had a problem like you describe. I'm assuming that the brass you're resizing isn't glock smiled, right?

What dies are you using? I usually use a Redding carbide die, but I have also used the Lee carbide die, and I haven't had this issue. Ever.

Try measuring your fired case head diameter just above the extraction groove before resizing. For Starline brass, that will measure .422" before firing, and after one of firing a full power load should still measure less than .424" Resizing won't reduce that diameter unless you run the brass through a pass-thru resizer. If it's bigger than .424" after one firing, then you might be getting excessive pressure with that load, and that would make sense that you are getting a ridge after resizing.
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Old 07-22-2012, 21:13   #3
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Hi,

I would say they might have been on the edge of wanting to smile. Of the 18 that creased when resized, they range from 0.422 to 0.424 with only one being 0.425. New cases are 0.421. Starline nickel. I am using Redding pro series carbide. Could the sizing die be too small?

It is sizing them to 0.4165 to 0.417...

Thanks,

Alan
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Last edited by alank2; 07-22-2012 at 21:16..
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:33   #4
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Hi,

I moved your reply from the other thread to this one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
I am assuming that when you say a sharp edge, you just mean a visiblie line where the die stopped sizing. If it is something different than that, then there may be other issues.
Here is what they look like after resizing.

The 10 Ring

Thanks,

Alan
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Last edited by alank2; 07-23-2012 at 06:33..
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:50   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
..Here is what they look like after resizing.

The 10 Ring

Thanks,

Alan
I reload my brass I shoot out of my stock G20 and G29 barrels. All my hotter loads get bulged down by the head and using my Dillon sizer, after sizing the bulge is quite noticable, although no definitive line is there like in your picture. I think mine has no definitive line mainly because the mouth of my die is radiused, so the transition to the bulge is less dramatic.

I lube my cases with Hornaday One Shot as well, seems to help with sizing of the most bulged brass.

BTW, my KKM barrel's chamber down by the head is not a great deal tighter than my stock barrel, if at all, so I seem to get about the same amount of bulge.

I also get extractor rash on some of my hottest loads, mainly on my G20 (less so on my G29). The extractor rash doesn't seem to affect loading or feeding in subsequent cycles.

I only load my nuke loads in virgin Starline brass, all the reloads are lighter (i.e. say, 180gr @ 1225fps, etc.).

Last edited by WeeWilly; 07-23-2012 at 10:58..
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Old 07-23-2012, 13:05   #6
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That would scare me too! My dies size down to the same spot, but don't leave a big step like that. Is it really several thou thick? On mine i can just barely feel the line with a fingernail.
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Old 07-23-2012, 13:14   #7
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Yes is do! It is all specific to the particular glock firearm. On my 6th, and 3, bulged brass so bad, I would not reload it. The other 3 you would think have match grade chambers. The newest of the 3 with loose chambers was a G20SF 3rd Gen, and it was the worst! Threw the brass away immediately. Like I said it varies from firearm to firearm.
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Old 07-23-2012, 14:01   #8
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by alwaysshootin View Post
Yes is do! It is all specific to the particular glock firearm. On my 6th, and 3, bulged brass so bad, I would not reload it. The other 3 you would think have match grade chambers. The newest of the 3 with loose chambers was a G20SF 3rd Gen, and it was the worst! Threw the brass away immediately. Like I said it varies from firearm to firearm.
Wow, that is disappointing. I guess mine is a loose chamber. I took the barrel off and put a new starline case (before resizing) in it and there is a ton of room around the case. I was really hoping to use the factory barrel. I suppose this means that I can, but only if I don't reload brass shot from it...

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-23-2012, 14:10   #9
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I use both stock and aftermarket and yes I reload the cases! Never seen anything with a crease like you're resizing die is apparently doing. Wow!
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Old 07-23-2012, 14:14   #10
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Hi Guys,

When you resize a case, what does it resize to? I was measuring in about the middle of the case. Mine is 0.4165" to 0.417"...

Do you guys think the nickel makes this worse?

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-23-2012, 15:07   #11
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Yes. I do. Thousands of times. An average of 9 loads through Starline brass. The crease that you are seeing appears to be brass that has been bulldozed by a very square resizing die. That is not normal. I would suspect it might be a function of the shape or the die rather than the Glock chamber. It is sort of hard to tell from the photos. My RCBS carbide die is rounded, so it doe not leave a line such as the one you posted.

Nickel has more friction on the die, so it is possibly pushing brass in front of it rather than gliding over it. The only time I have seen brass do that is after running some smiled cases through the sizer just to see what would happen.

I would first look at the interior of the die to see that it has a curved transition to he sizer ring. My next look would be to ensure that your loads are not hotter than you think they are.
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Old 07-23-2012, 15:10   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDC20 View Post
I absolutely reload brass fired from the stock G20 barrel and have never had a problem like you describe. I'm assuming that the brass you're resizing isn't glock smiled, right?

What dies are you using? I usually use a Redding carbide die, but I have also used the Lee carbide die, and I haven't had this issue. Ever.

Try measuring your fired case head diameter just above the extraction groove before resizing. For Starline brass, that will measure .422" before firing, and after one of firing a full power load should still measure less than .424" Resizing won't reduce that diameter unless you run the brass through a pass-thru resizer. If it's bigger than .424" after one firing, then you might be getting excessive pressure with that load, and that would make sense that you are getting a ridge after resizing.
Do you mean 0.434"? After firing a hot load?
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Old 07-23-2012, 15:14   #13
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I would be checking the die ... something is amiss. Do you have a new Starline Nickel case about? Resize it, measure it, and see if it does the same. I use Dillon dies but ... should be pretty same-same.
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Old 07-23-2012, 17:00   #14
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Here is a photo of one of mine after sizing in my Dillon sizing die. The dimension prior to sizing at the widest part of the bulge is .434".

The 10 Ring
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Old 07-23-2012, 17:12   #15
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Hi,

Unsized new starline nickel = 0.421"
Sized new starline nickel = 0.4165" to where the sizer stops.

The die in question does look weird. The carbide isn't shiny, and actually looks quite pitted under magnification so I'm thinking there is something wrong with the die. I'm going to contact Redding.

If anyone here would size a new 10mm case and tell me what it sizes to, I'd love to see what someone else's number is.

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-23-2012, 17:16   #16
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Hi,

Also, I can faintly see the line when I sized a new case. Could this be a press alignment issue? I'm using a 550. I always lower the die all the way, bring it up 1/4 turn, put a case in it to align it, and then tighten the die ring....

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-23-2012, 17:18   #17
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New brass sized or unsized it measures .421" where the sizing die ends.
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Old 07-23-2012, 17:22   #18
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeWilly View Post
New brass sized or unsized it measures .421" where the sizing die ends.
What does it measure in the middle when sized?

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-23-2012, 17:29   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
Hi,



What does it measure in the middle when sized?

Thanks,

Alan
.418" from the case mouth to where the sizer ends with the die mouth a paper's width off the shellplate. Appears to be about .003" of neck tension.

On the faint line, I get that as well where the sizer ends on a new case. I always size new cases.

Last edited by WeeWilly; 07-23-2012 at 17:32..
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Old 07-23-2012, 21:20   #20
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The answer is to try the redding GRX "Pass-Thru" or the LEE FCD as a "Pass-Thru die", LEE also sells the Bulge Buster kit. I use the LEE FCD with the guts removed as a "Pass-Thru die". This has reconditiond brass to fit the Cartridge Gauge without any sharp edges. The "SMILE" condition brass can NOT be reconditioned period!

Many of my cases do reach 0.434" in my G-29 barrel with full power loadings, they look like new when passed thru sized by the carbide sizing ring in the LEE FCD.

You might want to give it a try to see if things improve for you!
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Old 07-23-2012, 21:36   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
I'm going to contact Redding
Which Redding dies are you using? No one has asked so I will. Because I also own a Dillon 550B and I use the Redding Pro Series dies which are tungsten/carbide dies and they have been perfect for the 3 years or so I have been using them in 9mm, 40SW, and 45ACP.

Just got the 10MM stuff in, including the dies, so I can provide feedback, but I will tell you this. I started out reloading 40SW, and with the redding dies I have NEVER needed a FCD, or GRX dies, etc, and my 40 SW Glocks all used stock barrels.

If you're die is steel, you need case lube, from your description it would seem you have set the die up properly so that does not concern me.

One more photo that will help the group, is if you could take a picture of one of your loaded up rounds sitting in your barrel with the barrel out of the pistol, so we can see how much case support you do or do not have.

If you want I can try some pics tomorrow comparing the Barsto barrel I just got to my stock barrel from the G20SF.

I have not shot mine yet, but will soon.

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Old 07-23-2012, 22:48   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
Hi Guys,

When you resize a case, what does it resize to? I was measuring in about the middle of the case. Mine is 0.4165" to 0.417"...

Do you guys think the nickel makes this worse?

Thanks,

Alan
Through my RCBS carbide die, the diameter in the middle of the case is 0.419".
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Old 07-24-2012, 00:01   #23
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Alan,

I also have the Redding Titanium Carbide die. It sizes the brass down to about .418". The carbide part of my die has a shiny mirror finish and a fairly generous radius on it.

I do remember someone having a similar issue with the sizing rings on his brass a while back. I'll see if I can locate the thread. His problem was that he was trying to get full power loads using a powder that was just too fast for the application, so the brass was flowing outward at the case head a bit too much. When the sizer got to the case head, it left a similar ring. It doesn't seem like that is your problem if the largest diameter at your case heads measures .425"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
Do you mean 0.434"? After firing a hot load?
Taterhead,

I'm definitely in the minority here on how I determine pressure limits from fired brass measurements. I know most people measure the case expansion along the thin walls of the case, and that does have some merit. The reason I don't measure there is that part of the brass is constrained by the chamber when it expands, and there is almost always a little bit of spring-back after the pressure drops. So the expansion there approaches a diminishing number as you approach maximum pressure. Instead, I measure expansion at the case head, which is around the thick part of the brass web just above the extraction groove. Even though the expansion there is not as large on a moderately loaded round, the brass isn't constrained by the chamber there, so it is free to increase as the pressure goes up. You get a much more linear measurement, especially at max loadings. I also only measure the first loading with Starline brass. After the first firing, you don't really know what the starting dimension of the case head was, and the brass will start work hardening more after each firing.

I'm not saying one method is right and the other is wrong, I just have found that for me, measuring at the case head gives me what I feel is more useful data.
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:01   #24
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Hi Everyone,

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeWilly View Post
.418" from the case mouth to where the sizer ends with the die mouth a paper's width off the shellplate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
Through my RCBS carbide die, the diameter in the middle of the case is 0.419".
Thanks guys, I was reading last night and I saw a post where someone mentioned that Redding reduced the size to 0.415" to increase case tension. Not sure if that is true or not, but I don't want to see the brass worked more than it needs to be. Mine are 0.4165 to 0.417 which isn't much differnent that 0.418 or 0.419, but I have to wonder if it is just too much after firing expansion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
The answer is to try the redding GRX "Pass-Thru" or the LEE FCD as a "Pass-Thru die", LEE also sells the Bulge Buster kit. I use the LEE FCD with the guts removed as a "Pass-Thru die". This has reconditiond brass to fit the Cartridge Gauge without any sharp edges. The "SMILE" condition brass can NOT be reconditioned period!
Which leads me to consider trying this. If I were to resize the entire piece (assuming NO smile), would it then survive the resize without the crease...

One other option I am considering is could my press be out of alignment. I had this happen once years ago and the result was a hard pushed edge at the base of brass in 38 special.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire_Medic View Post
Which Redding dies are you using? No one has asked so I will. Because I also own a Dillon 550B and I use the Redding Pro Series dies which are tungsten/carbide dies and they have been perfect for the 3 years or so I have been using them in 9mm, 40SW, and 45ACP.
They are the Pro series carbine TIC dies. I have been using these exclusively because I like them so much. The left is 9mm from 4-5 years ago, the middle is a 44mag from a few months ago, and the 40/10mm is the one of the right just ordered from Midway. I really like the way the radius is on the 9mm and it has a full height carbine ring to taper a 9mm case properly. The other two are straight wall cases and have a shorter carbine ring, but the ring is different. I'm not surprised it is inset for protection these days, but it lacks the type of radius the 9mm one has.

Note that the 40/10mm die is much duller than the other two. You can really see it in the bottom picture with the flash. It has many tiny little pits in it.

The 10 Ring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire_Medic View Post
One more photo that will help the group, is if you could take a picture of one of your loaded up rounds sitting in your barrel with the barrel out of the pistol, so we can see how much case support you do or do not have.
I shot up all my test loads!! I can say that if I put even an unsized Starline case in there that it is free to move all around with tons of wiggle room. Is there a way to measure a chamber?

I am tempted to return the Redding set and try out a Lee Deluxe set with the bulge buster. It is either that or return it for replacement and see if the next resizing die looks normal. FireMedic - how does your sizing die look if you recently bought it?

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:55   #25
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Alan I have not set mine up yet for 10MM, but I will try and snap some pictures from you today. I will say though, that I bought the 10MM set, not the combo 40/10 set, I don't think there would be a difference in the sizing die but maybe there is. The guy who turned me on to these dies some time ago told me if they make a combo set AND they make a set for just the caliber you need, buy the set made just for the caliber you need. I was never given an explanation why but that's how I have done it. Maybe someone can chime in on what the differences would be?

And I only offered up my info on the 40SW because back a few years everyone was saying how dangerous 40 is/was to load, and you HAVE to have a FCD if you shoot from a Glock barrel, blah, blah, blah. And well 40 is a shorter 10MM.

Anyhow, these die sets are top notch and I would really like to see this play out to find the issue, because it would surprise me if it was the sizing die, hence why so many people are after the GRX die, who makes it, Redding, and it's of the same material as the T/C Pro Series die sets.

I will report back a little later, I can snap pics for you, and I will try and see if I can get any clear pics of some of the Underwood ammo I got in my bars to barrel just for chits and giggles.

FM
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