Speer +P vs. Underwood +P

PghJim · 09-02-2012, 21:24

I recently purchased a Walther PPQ with a 4" barrel, and the manual says not to use +p+ ammo. I am a fan of the 9mm 124gr GD so I tested the factory Speer 124gr +p against Uderwood 124gr. +p for highest velocity. I understand that this only represents a couple of lots, but the Chronograph indicated that the Speer factory was averaging 1,192 fps and the Underwood load was averaging 1,243 fps. I will miss the nickel case, but I am going to use the Underwood load.

Additionally, there was much less spread in velocities with the Underwood load. In the real world they both will work just fine, but I wanted to pass it along.

packinaglock · 09-03-2012, 06:34

M&P's also state no +p+ in their handbooks.

Kingarthurhk · 09-03-2012, 06:56

Glock with an atermarket barrel that is fully chamber supported could probably handle +p+, considering the G19 handles +p without an aftermarket barrel.

9mm +p+ · 09-03-2012, 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

Glock with an atermarket barrel that is fully chamber supported could probably handle +p+, considering the G19 handles +p without an aftermarket barrel.

Hate to break it to you, but I run +p+ in my Glock factory barrel alot and ZERO iussues. Used to run it in a Smith 5906 as well, also no issues. Glocks were designed around NATO spec ammo which is higher pressure than +p+, do your homework this is common knowledge...

Glockbuster · 09-03-2012, 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9mm +p+

Hate to break it to you, but I run +p+ in my Glock factory barrel alot and ZERO iussues. Used to run it in a Smith 5906 as well, also no issues. Glocks were designed around NATO spec ammo which is higher pressure than +p+, do your homework this is common knowledge...

Dont know about your comparison of +P+ to NATO. NATO is somewhere in the neighborhood of 36,500-38,500 PSI. +P+ could be anything over 36,000 PSI--it is not even a SAAMI spec so take your guess, some say even 42,000 PSI.

Nonetheless Glock 17 was tested to 50,000 PSI, so it will take any of those rounds stock with no problems.

Kingarthurhk · 09-03-2012, 13:51

You can do it with your glock if you like. But, if I am considering going anything over +p, I'll be looking into an aftermarket barrel. But, a gold dot beyond +p seems like it would let to bullet failure anyway. Now, a FMJ no problem, but with FMJ's you deal with overpenetration. But, with bullet failure on a gold dot going +p+ it may as well be an FMJ.

Tiro Fijo · 09-03-2012, 13:59

I have a Walther PPQ and have shot several thousand +p+ rounds through it as well as countless thousands through Glocks & SIG pistols with no excessive wear nor any other problems.

The issue is that there is no SAAMI spec for +p+ ammo so the gun makers are only covering themselves legally which makes perfect legal sense in today's society.

PghJim · 09-03-2012, 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk

You can do it with your glock if you like. But, if I am considering going anything over +p, I'll be looking into an aftermarket barrel. But, a gold dot beyond +p seems like it would let to bullet failure anyway. Now, a FMJ no problem, but with FMJ's you deal with overpenetration. But, with bullet failure on a gold dot going +p+ it may as well be an FMJ.

There are several tests where Speer GD at 9mm +p+ does not lead to bullet failure.

PghJim · 09-03-2012, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo

I have a Walther PPQ and have shot several thousand +p+ rounds through it as well as countless thousands through Glocks & SIG pistols with no excessive wear nor any other problems.

The issue is that there is no SAAMI spec for +p+ ammo so the gun makers are only covering themselves legally which makes perfect legal sense in today's society.

It is a legal issue with the PPQ, but I shot about 22 rounds of Underwood 124gr GD +p+ through the Walther when it started to throw the bullets >5" from the group at 15 yards in different directions. I do not know why that would be a pressure issue, but when I droped down to +p, the group came neatly together. Other +p+'s shot fine, but I decided, or maybe have not decided what to do. That Underwood 124gr +p+ is a very accurate load normally and I am not going to call S&W or Walther about the issue.

cowboy1964 · 09-03-2012, 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9mm +p+

Glocks were designed around NATO spec ammo which is higher pressure than +p+, do your homework this is common knowledge...

Kingarthurhk · 09-03-2012, 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by PghJim

It is a legal issue with the PPQ, but I shot about 22 rounds of Underwood 124gr GD +p+ through the Walther when it started to throw the bullets >5" from the group at 15 yards in different directions. I do not know why that would be a pressure issue, but when I droped down to +p, the group came neatly together. Other +p+'s shot fine, but I decided, or maybe have not decided what to do. That Underwood 124gr +p+ is a very accurate load normally and I am not going to call S&W or Walther about the issue.

Bullet seperation perhaps?

Trigger Finger · 09-03-2012, 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9mm +p+

Hate to break it to you, but I run +p+ in my Glock factory barrel alot and ZERO iussues. Used to run it in a Smith 5906 as well, also no issues. Glocks were designed around NATO spec ammo which is higher pressure than +p+, do your homework this is common knowledge...

I have done my homework and have never found anyone with authority say or mention that NATO spec 9MM is +P+!!!!! Where are you getting this info if you could tell me.

I have heard that NATO spec is approximately 9MM+P or a little greater, but never 9MM+P+ and especially I have never ever heard that NATO spec 9MM is "higher pressure than +P+"!!!!

Tiro Fijo · 09-03-2012, 15:59

I shot 25 each of the Underwood 124 gr. +p+ in a PPQ & a G19. Ragged hole at 15 yds. in each gun. Some of the most accurate 9mm that I have ever shot, IMO.

PghJim · 09-04-2012, 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo

I shot 25 each of the Underwood 124 gr. +p+ in a PPQ & a G19. Ragged hole at 15 yds. in each gun. Some of the most accurate 9mm that I have ever shot, IMO.

Me Too! That is why I could not figure out why the PPQ started to throw rounds. I was concerned about putting more through it. I will try it again probably. You are correct in that for me the Underwood 124gr +p+ is the most accurate 9mm I have shot.

PghJim · 09-04-2012, 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trigger Finger

I have done my homework and have never found anyone with authority say or mention that NATO spec 9MM is +P+!!!!! Where are you getting this info if you could tell me.

I have heard that NATO spec is approximately 9MM+P or a little greater, but never 9MM+P+ and especially I have never ever heard that NATO spec 9MM is "higher pressure than +P+"!!!!

The standard 9mm has a maximum average pressure of 35,000psi, and the +p is 38,500 psi as per SAAMI. Anything above 38,500psi would be considered +p+, but is generally thought to be around 40,000psi, but you must understand that all you know about a +p+ is that it is above 38,500psi.

The NATO rating is generally listed 36,500 psi with a proof testing of 45,700psi. There is often a view that the NATO is higher than +p which can be found in many places. See link.

http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/17_3...es/5231-1.html

This actually may not be that far off. In my discussions with Winchester, they told me that if a NATO 9x19 round were tested using the same method as SAAMI that the maximum would be around 40,000psi. He told me that Winchester makes their listed NATO ammo at a 38,500psi by the same testing.

This may have confused the issue, but if you go to Wiki, it will list NATO at 36,500psi.

JEEPX · 09-04-2012, 12:28

I am interested in the Underwood 9mm124gr +p JHP and the +p+ 124gr JHP.

The +p+ 124gr JHP intrigues me.

There are plenty of chrono results.

Has anyone done gel tests?
I would be interested in penetration, and expansion results
Also if there is any issues with bullet core separation

PghJim · 09-04-2012, 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEEPX

I am interested in the Underwood 9mm124gr +p JHP and the +p+ 124gr JHP.

The +p+ 124gr JHP intrigues me.

There are plenty of chrono results.

Has anyone done gel tests?
I would be interested in penetration, and expansion results
Also if there is any issues with bullet core separation

Here is the 124gr +p+.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcrsOyAa0gY

Trigger Finger · 09-04-2012, 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by PghJim

The standard 9mm has a maximum average pressure of 35,000psi, and the +p is 38,500 psi as per SAAMI. Anything above 38,500psi would be considered +p+, but is generally thought to be around 40,000psi, but you must understand that all you know about a +p+ is that it is above 38,500psi.

The NATO rating is generally listed 36,500 psi with a proof testing of 45,700psi. There is often a view that the NATO is higher than +p which can be found in many places. See link.

http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/17_3...es/5231-1.html

This actually may not be that far off. In my discussions with Winchester, they told me that if a NATO 9x19 round were tested using the same method as SAAMI that the maximum would be around 40,000psi. He told me that Winchester makes their listed NATO ammo at a 38,500psi by the same testing.

This may have confused the issue, but if you go to Wiki, it will list NATO at 36,500psi.

OK, one one hand you say that The standard 9mm has a maximum average pressure of 35,000psi, and the +p is 38,500 psi as per SAAMI.
Then you say, The NATO rating is generally listed at 36,500 psi.
This makes NATO 9MM slightly higher than regular pressure 9MM. Then you state what Winchester said that NATO loads are higher then 9MM+P+

OK, I am Thoroughly confused!

JEEPX · 09-04-2012, 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by PghJim

Here is the 124gr +p+.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcrsOyAa0gY

Jim...Thanks for the video

PghJim · 09-04-2012, 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trigger Finger

OK, one one hand you say that The standard 9mm has a maximum average pressure of 35,000psi, and the +p is 38,500 psi as per SAAMI.
Then you say, The NATO rating is generally listed at 36,500 psi.
This makes NATO 9MM slightly higher than regular pressure 9MM. Then you state what Winchester said that NATO loads are higher then 9MM+P+

OK, I am Thoroughly confused!

The maximum NATO pressure is 36,500psi, but I understand it is not the same protocol that SAAMI uses, so it is at least 36,500psi as per SAAMI protocol. Look, I am not a NATO expert, but was trying to show that different pressures are listed for NATO. As per the link, Mr. 9mm +P+ would be correct because it says 42,000psi is NATO. From what I understand, no US manufacturer uses the NATO protocol, but rather the SAAMI protocol for all ammo and load NATO advertised rounds for the public at SAAMI +p, which would be higher than 36,500. I am sure if they had a big NATO contract they would have to use the NATO protocol. Again, I am just adding to the body of knowledge in this thread and to tell you I know where Mr. 9mm +P+ got his information. The link I had in my post for example. I do not think you can just compare the pressures because they are tested by different protocols.