IDPA vs USPSA - what are the pros and cons? - Page 2

marvin · 09-08-2012, 22:46

i don't let the rules bother me, i know they are both games so i just play by what ever the rules are.

i've also shot bullseye and steel along with action pistol matchs different rules for different games.

AZson · 09-09-2012, 09:57

USPSA your score is heavily based on time while IDPA is balanced with time and target score. I think of USPSA as a kind of spray and pray competition and IDPA is based on every day CCW's. I like IDPA better.

waktasz · 09-09-2012, 11:26

The basis of USPSA scoring is Points divided by time. You need both. Someone who says USPSA is spray and pray doesn't know anything about the sport.

The most recent match I shot I shot 91% of the points (which is pretty bad for me). The guy in 3rd place shot every stage faster than me, but only shot 84% of the points. Guess who won?

Seale Team · 09-09-2012, 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by waktasz

The basis of USPSA scoring is Points divided by time. You need both. Someone who says USPSA is spray and pray doesn't know anything about the sport.

Very well stated.

ron59 · 09-09-2012, 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZson

USPSA your score is heavily based on time while IDPA is balanced with time and target score. I think of USPSA as a kind of spray and pray competition and IDPA is based on every day CCW's. I like IDPA better.

You should shoot some of the matches I do, where many of the targets are partially hidden by "no shoots". Spray-and-pray would give you so many penalties you'd be terrible.

No.... you gotta be accurate to be good.
You probably just saw guys shoot in half the time you did with a few less points than you had and came up with that conclusion. The truth of the matter is the best guys are super fast AND accurate.

Do some Googling, you'll quickly find that an IDPA Master is usually considered equivalent "only" to a USPSA *A* class shooter. USPSA has two classes above that (Master and Grand Master).

If you want to shoot the Pro Am Steel match, you have to shoot at the highest classification you have in IDPA/USPSA. He lists the comparison table here:
http://proamshooting.com/SCORING/scoring.html

Also... in GSSF, if you're a Master in any other shooting sport, you have to register as Master in GSSF. *Unless* you're an IDPA Master... they don't even consider that as good enough. LOL.

Bottom line... an IDPA Master is pretty much doodly-squat compared to other shooting organizations. You truly want to test your shooting skills of speed/accuracy, shoot USPSA.

davsco · 09-09-2012, 18:51

guys let's not rag on each other's choices. idpa and uspsa are both a ton of fun and a great chance to shoot under mildly stressful situations. in both you have to be both accurate and fast. shooting slow, or missing your butt off, will put you in the bottom of the pack on both formats. to the OP and everyone else, try them both (and also gssf, steel challenge, 3 gun, and everything else) and see what suits you best.

***BuckyP*** · 09-10-2012, 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by waktasz

The basis of USPSA scoring is Points divided by time. You need both. Someone who says USPSA is spray and pray doesn't know anything about the sport.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seale Team

Very well stated.

Very well stated.

And for those who shoot Production (minor scoring), accuracy is even more critical.

MrVvrroomm · 09-10-2012, 06:34

I shoot both, much prefer USPSA

et45 · 09-12-2012, 16:55

Whoever stated downloading mags in IDPA leveled the playing field between guns is wrong. the divisions(CDP,SSP ESP...) do not compete against each other.There is no "High Overall" winner in IDPA or USPSA for that matter.

waktasz · 09-12-2012, 17:00

It levels the playing field between guns with different factory magazine capacities dopey.

et45 · 09-12-2012, 17:01

As for the quality of the SOs in IDPA I was both a USPSA RO and a IDPA SO and the RO class was far more in depth than the SO class.ROs also have to recertify every year.

et45 · 09-12-2012, 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by waktasz

It levels the playing field between guns with different factory magazine capacities dopey.

thats a whiner response if I ever heard one "billybobs gun hold 1 more billet than mine"Most all SSP guns have at least a 16 rd capacity anyway

waktasz · 09-12-2012, 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by et45

thats a whiner response if I ever heard one "billybobs gun hold 1 more billet than mine"Most all SSP guns have at least a 16 rd capacity anyway

It's not whining, it's the truth. You can't possibly deny that that's the reason the founders of IDPA did it. That and the AWB.

Jon_R · 09-12-2012, 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by et45

Whoever stated downloading mags in IDPA leveled the playing field between guns is wrong. the divisions(CDP,SSP ESP...) do not compete against each other.There is no "High Overall" winner in IDPA or USPSA for that matter.

I believe his intended comment is inside the divisions and is true. If you could fill up the mags you would see less G27s and more G17s in SSP as giving up the rounds would be a lot more costly in standings than just the loss of weight and sight radius. When a string can't make you fire more than 18 rounds I bet you would see some 18 round guns built for the rules.

I am ok with 10 round mags as I want to do reloads for the value of doing reloads. I would probably like to load 8 in them so I get an extra reload but I can't actually under the rules.

I shoot all the action sports I can find. USPSA, IDPA, and 3-Gun. Whatever is offered closest when I have a weekend day free to go.

ron59 · 09-12-2012, 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by et45

thats a whiner response if I ever heard one "billybobs gun hold 1 more billet than mine"Most all SSP guns have at least a 16 rd capacity anyway

If it's not the same, it's not the same. Me with 16 and you 18? Not fair. There has to be *A* number. The AWB limit of 10 makes sense anyway.

With 18 rounds... you wouldn't even have to reload for most stages. Reloading is *good*.

4Rules · 09-12-2012, 21:10

IDPA - YouTube

4Rules · 09-12-2012, 21:13

Hitler banned from the Brian Enos forums - YouTube

GlockinNJ · 09-13-2012, 08:47

Man, you are funny, 4rules.

HoldHard · 09-13-2012, 10:17

IDPA = NASCAR
USPSA = Formula One

In IDPA there is only one way to shoot a stage. Everyone shoots the same targets in exactly the same order from the same position as described in the stage scenerio.

In USPSA there could be several ways to shoot a stage. The stage description can be as short as one sentence "Engage targets as they become visible from within the shooting area." You have to figure out what targets to shoot from where and when to do reloads. The different divisions have guns that hold 8 rounds (Single Stack) up to 29 rounds (Open).

IDPA requires a "cover garnment" to be worn. They require you to retain a magazine that has rounds left in it, so you have to put it in a pocket during the reload process. You do not have to retain an empty magazine, hence the extra shots fired to get it empty. The serious IDPA shooters at my club use a vest as a cover garnment with nice big open pockets. In USPSA, magazines with rounds left in them do not have to be retained.

There are several other members at my club that shoot both and they call IDPA "IPSC Lite". One guy is an IDPA Master and "B" class in USPSA Production division. He uses the same gun, holster and magazine carriers (he just adds a couple more magazines when shooting USPSA).

I have shot both and enjoy them both. IDPA is just not doing very well at my club due to burn out. The same set of people design, setup, Safety Officer, score, tear down and publish the match results. They have been at it for the last four years! But that can happen anywhere in any sport.

The USPSA group has been shooting at the club for 15 years. They are organized and groom replacement people for every position, from pistol committee rep all the way through the ranks.

As I age, the Open division with it's dot optics has become attractive. It still allows older people to shoot. We have several individuals at the club that are in their 70's and one that is 84 that shoot Open division and have a great time doing it. They compete against each other in the "Super Senior" classification.....

Sometimes, it just boils down to the people. When you shoot the stage exactly like the guy in front of you did but get a Failure To Do Right (FTDR) penalty, that might influence you slightly.

Remember. Both are volunteer sports. So be nice to the range officers and safety officers, even the one that gave you the FTDR penalty..... without them volunteering their time and effort, there would not be any competition shooting.

To the OP, it's all fun. Go shoot both and find out what you like.

HH

Chris Chris · 09-13-2012, 13:37

Very well put!

PEC-Memphis · 09-13-2012, 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoldHard

In IDPA there is only one way to shoot a stage. Everyone shoots the same targets in exactly the same order from the same position as described in the stage scenerio.

This simply isn't true as an absolute. Sure, there are stages where your statement applies - but it depends upon stage design. We often have more than one choice of start position - and then other choices of how to engage targets. Depending upon the design, these choices can make the strategies for the stage quite different. As an example, which side of a hallway can change the target array to be engaged first, how far you can proceed down the hallway and maintain cover, etc. Determining the best strategy on some (well designed stages) can be more difficult in IDPA than in USPSA.

***BuckyP*** · 09-13-2012, 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by PEC-Memphis

This simply isn't true as an absolute. Sure, there are stages where your statement applies - but it depends upon stage design. We often have more than one choice of start position - and then other choices of how to engage targets. Depending upon the design, these choices can make the strategies for the stage quite different. As an example, which side of a hallway can change the target array to be engaged first, how far you can proceed down the hallway and maintain cover, etc. Determining the best strategy on some (well designed stages) can be more difficult in IDPA than in USPSA.

While this is true, it has to do with stage design, it has been quite rare in the many IDPA matches that I have shot.

HoldHard · 09-13-2012, 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by PEC-Memphis

This simply isn't true as an absolute. Sure, there are stages where your statement applies - but it depends upon stage design. We often have more than one choice of start position - and then other choices of how to engage targets. Depending upon the design, these choices can make the strategies for the stage quite different. As an example, which side of a hallway can change the target array to be engaged first, how far you can proceed down the hallway and maintain cover, etc. Determining the best strategy on some (well designed stages) can be more difficult in IDPA than in USPSA.

So your choices are to go down the left side or the right side. Ok, but that still seems limited, but maybe it's just me.

Good stage design is critical to a successful match, one that the competitors talk about after they leave.

Challenging stage designs are where the same target is available from two or three different shooting locations and you have to decide where they should be engaged. You also have to remember that you have already shot them when they "appear" a second or third time.

Steel targets that activate a moving target are normally placed where other targets can be engaged before the moving target even appears. You have to be able to gauge the speed of the mover and how many "static" targets you are going to engage before going after a moving / disappearing target. Do I shoot the activator, then the one paper target beside it then go for the mover, or do I go for both the paper and the additional steel after hitting the activator?

PEC-Memphis I understand where you are coming from but only having two ways to shoot a stage compared to 5, 6 or 7 different ways appears to be a bit more difficult, especially where the stage description has "Start anywhere within the shooting area" as the start position. Now those are really fun....

HH

PEC-Memphis · 09-13-2012, 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoldHard

So your choices are to go down the left side or the right side. Ok, but that still seems limited, but maybe it's just me.

That was just one example for one part of one stage for a couple of arrays. We have some good stage designers - some of the "trickiest" appear to be the most simple. Some separate the "high masters" from the "low masters", but still can be completed by a MM.

Yes, there are stages that are very limited in choices, and it takes a good designer to keep the CoF's interesting with options.

Don't get me wrong, USPSA is a great sport and there is no negative implication here. But the statement about IDPA CoFs only being shot one way by every shooter just isn't correct - and while the variations may only be a couple of seconds at the same skill level - matches are won and lost by less.

If you want to discuss limited choices, refer to Steel Challenge. But yet Steel Challenge is a great sport attracting many professional shooters.

sciolist · 09-13-2012, 20:02

IDPA is an attempt to add (or retain) a "defensive" component to Practical Shooting, which some find to be contrived. USPSA is more evolved as a sport, and requires a much higher level of handling and shooting proficiency to do well.

Ironically, IDPA's contrivances make it less realistic than USPSA - where the objective is simply to engage the targets in the most efficient manner the competitor can find.

The typical criticism of USPSA is that it's too gamey, but all of these sports are games. If you're interested in using a shooting game as a means of developing modern pistol handling skills, USPSA is for you. If you want to get good with a carry-type gun, shoot production.