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Old 08-23-2012, 03:29   #21
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Originally Posted by bullittmcqueen View Post
Surf, an excellent post as always. Hopefully some of the new guys will take the time to read it all and not fall into the brand vs brand debate. Nice job as always. I always enjoy your knowledgeable posts.
I noticed where you are located and I just wanted to send my sincere condolences. Please let us know if there is anything we can do.
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Old 09-22-2012, 04:19   #22
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As always, excellent job Surf, glad to see this became a sticky.
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Old 12-30-2012, 19:05   #23
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
You can write all you want. Post spreadsheets. People can read them and discuss them but I think the most important thing a person can do when buying an AR-15 (or anything else to a certain extent, see 1911 forums for similar pissing contests) is to stop and think what they want this thing for.

Ask yourself am I a hobbiest or an enthusiast?

Ask yourself what is it going to be used for?

What is your budget? What is in that price range?

Then finally what matters to you most about the weapon?
This +1. Very good point, regardless of what you bought or are considering. Unfortunately with the panic, not only are people way over paying for the good stuff, there getting raped on the crappy stuff.


Last edited by rootbrain; 12-30-2012 at 19:06..
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Old 01-21-2013, 15:55   #24
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Thanks for the great post. Definitely helped clear some things up for me. Count me down as another vote for this as a sticky!
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:17   #25
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I'm a little late to the party as usual. Having already passed on an "Oracle" and a "Bushy", in favor of a "DelTon" coming in Friday, I have much reading to do before Friday afternoon.

I have no commitment to any purchase at this time and I stumbled upon this post from arf, which I just found last week looking into the AR platform.

The 6920 looks good IMHO for a few dollars more.
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Old 08-07-2013, 20:01   #26
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Originally Posted by Novocaine View Post
Definitions of what is the best for a military or civilian (even SD-oriented) shooter do differ. For example precision becomes more and weight becomes less of an issue for a civilian. A civilian will more willingly accept the increased cost and doesn’t care about sustained fire capability. So in fact a company aimed to build an ideal AR for civilian will have to deviate from milspec.
+1000. I'd put a JP SCR-11 or CTR-02 build quality up against any other manufacturer. Mil-Spec or not. Quality, I think, is a comparative thing. For competitive 3-Gun shooters, the "quality" they need in a rifle is different from the beat cop who needs to have something that is may have to reach out 100yds or so, instead of ringing a steel flash target at 600. While they might be "interchangeable," they're optimized for their prescribed mission. If they do that well, I consider that quality.
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:43   #27
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A good barrel is most important for an AR.....
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Old 12-22-2013, 09:28   #28
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Originally Posted by drt4life View Post
A good barrel is most important for an AR.....

It is really funny, because that is EXACTLY what I thought when I read the title. I believe that a quality barrel is the heart of a good rifle.
Then, after reading all of the previous posts, I had to rethink that position. A barrel that is capable of 1/4 MOA in an unreliable action is virtually useless. The bottom line is that there is no "magic bullet" and there is no rifle that is perfect for everyone.

That being said, if you have a quality barrel matched with a quality bolt (and carrier), you have a great beginning.
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Old 01-19-2014, 12:58   #29
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So, what is the consensus of Mforgery hierarchy? I'm looking to get one, not hard core fanboy. Just a solid entry level GP rifle.
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium. - I prefer liberty with danger to peace with slavery.
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Old 02-14-2014, 08:37   #30
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Good Parts! Over the years even Colt has used non Mil Spec parts but they were still good parts. Quite a few junk parts kits came from questionable suppliers with out of spec parts. That can be a real issue. Quite a few 1st and 2nd tier builders use great to good parts.....some Mil Spec and some even better. It's the quality parts that make a quality rifle and custom parts make a custom rifle.
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Old 03-24-2014, 23:35   #31
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Originally Posted by A6Gator View Post
+1000. I'd put a JP SCR-11 or CTR-02 build quality up against any other manufacturer. Mil-Spec or not. Quality, I think, is a comparative thing. For competitive 3-Gun shooters, the "quality" they need in a rifle is different from the beat cop who needs to have something that is may have to reach out 100yds or so, instead of ringing a steel flash target at 600. While they might be "interchangeable," they're optimized for their prescribed mission. If they do that well, I consider that quality.

+1000! Good example also. A 3-gun AR rifle will more than likely have a stainless steel barrel instead of a chrome lined barrel due to the increased accuracy of the stainless steel barrels. Also a 18"- 20" barrel with rifle length gas ports, polygonal rifling, adjustable gas block, expensive target triggers, lighten bolts and buffers, flat recoil springs, compensators...etc/etc. NONe of this is military spec. That said, innovations such as Pmags were not military spec either. AR rifles are currently more than just a government issued rifle locked in the armory and locked in time, some go to the races on weekends.
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Last edited by jbremount; 03-25-2014 at 00:02..
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Old 07-30-2014, 16:55   #32
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This MILSPEC, TDP, whatever is all a bunch of noise used to market AR crap to the public.

Why do I say that? Because quite simply, the public has no way of knowing if BCM is selling you Carpenter 158 bolt or something else. We have no way of verifying whether its been properly tested according to government standards or not. Even if a barrel or bolt is marked with the appropriate marks we simply don't know. For all we know Colt and BCM could be selling us 4140 button rifled barrels. How would you know if they weren't? The government has inspectors and samples lots for compliance? Who tests the civilian stuff? Do you know how many government contractors actually deviate from the specs and never get caught?

So Colt, BCM DD, et al can claim anything they want. Who's going to call them on it?

What's more..even if the manufacturers do in fact use the spec'd materials--then there's the issue of how well they machine the part, how well they heat treat the metal, what kind of tolerances things are held to. Again, show me what independent civilian firm is testing these things?

You can claim you trust these folks, or they sell a lot of rifles so it must be so. But that's not an objective measure. Its just a bunch of hooey.
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Old 04-11-2015, 15:31   #33
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Old 04-12-2015, 04:43   #34
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Great OP and a lot of good info in this thread.

I would tend to agree with the general sentiments regarding the needs of the military being often very different from the needs of the civilian. For that reason, and especially those specified by Big Bird regarding our true uncertainty of the actual quality of what we are buying, I tend to roll my eyes when people get really proud of their "mil-spec" rifles. I think a lot of people are either 1) spending more than they need when their real use is running 100 rounds a month through it at the range, or 2) actually sacrificing personal needs (like a faster-cycling BCG for 3gun, or a more precise non-chromed barrel) to get a rifle that meets a standard they probably don't really appreciate.

Probably the only contention I had with the OP was the position that non-mil-spec rifles are likely procuded by companies trying to keep quality low and profit margins high. I am sure there are companies that fit this bill, but I also see a lot of decent entry-level rifles for $600 that probably have a narrower profit margin than the $4000 ARs rifles people buy to pad their internet egos.
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Old 04-12-2015, 10:10   #35
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Originally Posted by "Cold Dead Hands" ! View Post
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Old 05-21-2015, 12:52   #36
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SCAR Heavy, buy once, cry once.
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