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Old 05-30-2012, 19:18   #61
Aceman
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I think one thing about the trained vs untrained crowd is this:

Trained crowd is much more likely to AVOID need for force in general. Untrained crowd is more likely to both attempt to use it and get their @$$ kicked for it.

Mid set is definitely the bigger issue. Mindset plus training - the ideal place.
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Old 05-30-2012, 22:29   #62
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Originally Posted by Aceman View Post
I think one thing about the trained vs untrained crowd is this:

Trained crowd is much more likely to AVOID need for force in general. Untrained crowd is more likely to both attempt to use it and get their @$$ kicked for it.

Mid set is definitely the bigger issue. Mindset plus training - the ideal place.

+1

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Old 05-31-2012, 03:42   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceman View Post
I think one thing about the trained vs untrained crowd is this:

Trained crowd is much more likely to AVOID need for force in general. Untrained crowd is more likely to both attempt to use it and get their @$$ kicked for it.

Mid set is definitely the bigger issue. Mindset plus training - the ideal place.
Good point. The best way to win a fight is to not have to have it in the first place.

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Old 05-31-2012, 04:32   #64
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The closest thing I can think of to this issue is having your child molested. Early in my LE career, I had to work child molesting cases. Now, everyone pretty much says, and really thinks, they would kill anyone who molested their kids. I know I feel the same way.

Yet, out of all of the child molesting cases I worked, I only saw it happen one time. And, that was a mother, who within a few minutes of finding out, took a butcher knife and tried as hard as she could to stab her daughter's attacker to death. And, then, three months later, she was living with him again.

I saw a lot of people get really mad, but I never saw anyone else actually do anything.

But, you ask anybody, me included, and we all say we would kill the bastard.
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Old 05-31-2012, 10:53   #65
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The closest thing I can think of to this issue is having your child molested. Early in my LE career, I had to work child molesting cases. Now, everyone pretty much says, and really thinks, they would kill anyone who molested their kids. I know I feel the same way.

Yet, out of all of the child molesting cases I worked, I only saw it happen one time. And, that was a mother, who within a few minutes of finding out, took a butcher knife and tried as hard as she could to stab her daughter's attacker to death. And, then, three months later, she was living with him again.

I saw a lot of people get really mad, but I never saw anyone else actually do anything.

But, you ask anybody, me included, and we all say we would kill the bastard.

Yes indeed! My point exactly. So many on the net emphasis training, training, training. They totally miss the first step of making the decision first. It is far, far more important.

Wasn't it Pat Garrit who said that many men have the skills, but few have the willingness?


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Old 05-31-2012, 11:00   #66
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BTDT, went to jail for 8hrs...then dismissed by judge.
It sucks, but I wouldn't have done anything different.
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Old 05-31-2012, 21:14   #67
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Hell, I'm capable of it now. I wouldn't own self defense weapons if i was incapable of violence.

My opinion is that everybody is capable of violence. The real question is how you respond when suddenly thrust into a situation where you must fight to survive. That is where experience, training, social conditioning and your own mental makeup really determine the outcome.

Not ever having been in one of these situations I don't really know for certain how I will respond. I do believe that thinking through the issues before being put into a bad spot makes sense (so I am not trying to figure out what I could/should do in a certain situation instead of responding). Training and discussion is a way to work out what the appropriate responses would be beforehand and the more realistic the training the better.

The second to the last thing I would ever want to do is kill someone when I absolutely didn't need to. The very last thing I would ever want to do is let someone harm me or a member of my family due to my own inaction/paralysis.

I am not looking forward to the idea of using violence and I have no doubt that if I was forced to use it that it would cause me mental distress afterward. Beats losing a loved one though.
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Old 05-31-2012, 21:37   #68
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This could be a GREAT thread, but it's not.

First, nobody can be prosecuted for their admission to violence without a crime: corpus delecti.
Second, it's more relevant what you've experienced.
Third, if you've run it over in you head you are probably in better shape...
Fourth, training is great, but self defense training is not.

I've been in more fights than I'm proud of and had knives, bats and 2 guns pulled on me. I'm still breathing, more from luck than skill. I believe if you're over 35 (my last fight) and still at it you're an idiot. I avoid fights now like I avoid fat people, both are signs of weakness.

Can you kill? Anyone can. Can you live with it and not be a PTSD victim is the real issue.

Movies are Fiction!, but the fight scene in Die Hard is a good example of adrenaline and determination v "training". I've had "trained" fighters bloody me and then give up when my thumb was in their eye socket or my middle finger was up their nose. I've also been smacked around a time or three.

Nobody wins a fight. NOBODY wins a shooting, just ask Mr. Zimmerman.


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Old 05-31-2012, 21:48   #69
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Hell, I'm capable of it now. I wouldn't own self defense weapons if i was incapable of violence.

My opinion is that everybody is capable of violence.
Yes, everyone is capable of it. But are they willing? The difference is everything.

The real question is how you respond when suddenly thrust into a situation where you must fight to survive. That is where experience, training, social conditioning and your own mental makeup really determine the outcome.

Nope. Before experience, training, social conditioning and mental make up come willingness. Willingness controls everything else.

Not ever having been in one of these situations I don't really know for certain how I will respond. I do believe that thinking through the issues before being put into a bad spot makes sense (so I am not trying to figure out what I could/should do in a certain situation instead of responding). Training and discussion is a way to work out what the appropriate responses would be beforehand and the more realistic the training the better.

Correct. All that can lead to the correct decision. But the decision must be made or one will hesitate/dither. People can die in those gaps.

The second to the last thing I would ever want to do is kill someone when I absolutely didn't need to. The very last thing I would ever want to do is let someone harm me or a member of my family due to my own inaction/paralysis.

I am not looking forward to the idea of using violence and I have no doubt that if I was forced to use it that it would cause me mental distress afterward. Beats losing a loved one though.
A person is never 'forced' into violence. A bad guy about to rape/kill your wife forces you into nothing at all. Many, faced with that circumstance succumb. Violence is a choise we make when faced with circumstances that it would solve to our benefit. Begging for mercy is a choice too, and one picked by many.

Or so I think. You're of course welcome to think otherwise. But this is what my experience with and thinking about violence has brought me to.

As I type this I am facing my sliding glass door. If someone were to come smashing through it right now it would be my choice to pick up the .45 next to the 'puter and see if I could stop his actions/plans. I've got 15 chances!


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Old 05-31-2012, 21:53   #70
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I agree with most of what you've said Mr. Greentriple. Except that nobody ever wins a gunfight.

Those that don't make the stupid mistakes that Zimmerman made and don't live in a communist state can easily win gunfights. Actually happens here in Florida about on a weekly basis. A quick tour of the news will comfirm it.


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Old 06-01-2012, 08:45   #71
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I agree with most of what you've said Mr. Greentriple. Except that nobody ever wins a gunfight.

Those that don't make the stupid mistakes that Zimmerman made and don't live in a communist state can easily win gunfights. Actually happens here in Florida about on a weekly basis. A quick tour of the news will comfirm it.


Cat
True, I was a bit too "broad stroke" with that statement. What I should have written is that even if you survive, face no prosecution or civil liability, the psychological/emotional ramifications can be devastating.


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Old 09-21-2012, 06:34   #72
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Apologies for bringing back an old thread but I found a decent discussion about this subject today.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2012/09/...by-mark-b.html
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:36   #73
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different response

What is the difference between an opinion essay & a discussion essay?



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Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
An opinion essay is just that; an essay based on someones opinion of a topic or topics. A discussion essay is factual information presented on the topic(s). You are discussing a subject; typically with or to other people.

I think that this thread started with a thrust of "will you" instead of "can you".

The "will you" answer would be that it matters primarily to you - and you probably won't be posting here after shtf.

The "can you" answer is a bit different based upon factual observations that are elsewhere (and not by me) documented:

1. most people forced into combat never fire a weapon.
2. most people forced into combat do not fire accurately for effectiveness as a matter of choice.
3. most people don't accept that bad things can happen to them.
4. most people do not think that they will die (that is why 50% of the lawyers and 10% of the general population ever write a will).

The gentleman's essay reinforces what you probably already know, but implicitly reject in your life style:
1. training is superior to not training;
2. piling up supplies is not the same as training;]
3. experiencing a dose of reality under fairly safe conditions is educational.

Paranoia is not the unreasonable belief that somehow, somewhere, some person would want to kill you for your wallet, your girlfriend, your house, your religion or your political opinion.

Paranoia is baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.
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Old 09-26-2012, 12:13   #74
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Here is a tragic reminder of what happens when you are NOT willing to use deadly force when it is called for!
>> Dinkheller encountered a speeding Toyota pickup truck near Dudley, Georgia, which he clocked at nearly 100 miles per hour

>> Dinkheller fired a shot at Brannan but missed. After the first shot, Brannan returned fire and a barrage of gunfire was heard. Dinkheller did not strike the suspect initially and thus, was forced to reload.

>> After being captured, Brannan was asked why he killed Dinkheller. His response was, "Because he let me."

Sadly this POS is still alive. . .
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Old 09-26-2012, 12:21   #75
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Wow! That is really sad! The officer seemed like he was really uncertain about what to do when the guy wouldn't obey his orders.
Wonder how many cops now days would have went for their Tazer first. .

I guess that would have been an OK move BEFORE the M1-Carbine came out. But once that guy pulled the rifle.

The officer did seem very flustered and nervous (don't really blame him given the situation). But I wonder how much that contributed to his inability to hit the given that the officer did fire first.

Easy to hit a man sized target at 50 yards at the range. Another thing to hit someone at 20 yards when the guy is waving an M1-Carb around, trying to kill you.
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Old 09-26-2012, 20:36   #76
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Here is a tragic reminder of what happens when you are NOT willing to use deadly force when it is called for!
We don't know if Officer Dinkhetter was unwilling to use deadly force or if he was caught in a loop (mentally speaking). My take on this he was caught in a loop that he couldn't get his brain to break free from at all.
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Old 09-26-2012, 21:21   #77
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That video was very unsettling I turned off the sound half way through.

Everyone's capable but the trick is not only to be capable but to be ruthless about it.

I've only been in one situation in my life where my life was seriously threatened. Luckily the other guy didn't have the nerve to continue what he started. I think he knew it and that's why he ran.

I preferred that outcome, especially after the shaking stopped.
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:33   #78
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Everyone's capable but the trick is not only to be capable but to be ruthless about it.


Statistically speaking, this isn't true.


There's been a whole lot of research, and money spent by the .mil to figure out the best way to program soldiers to kill, and even then, they still haven't reached 100% yet.
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:56   #79
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A .gov program will not change a response ta a survival situation.Unless psych are involved.'08.
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Old 09-27-2012, 03:21   #80
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Q: If the SHTF will you be capable of Physical Violence against another?
A: Absolutely! Bottom line eat or be eaten.
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